Assurance of Salvation

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, it is of interest to read Jonah chapters 1 and 2. Read Acts 9 (the Lord to Ananias, "15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”). God acts against freewill, in some obvious cases like these, and He hardens hearts sometimes. Those things have to be part of the understanding of freewill doctrine.

What righteousness does the natural man have? (Rom 3:9-18, Eph 2:1, Matt 8:22) Isn’t the natural man spiritually dead, as the Bible clearly teaches? What power does the dead man have?

Sincerely, OldProf

OldProf,
I appreciate your responses, but I’ll have to get back to you after my vacation.

Officially on vacation! :extrahappy:

Anna

 

[uther]

And then we have the Bible, which says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3:16-17 NKJV

So it is your contention that the Bible is inadequate, correct? Would St. Paul agree with you?

Regards, OldProf

St. Paul did have something to say about this.

1 Timothy 3:
“*[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. *”

It is interesting that the entire New Testament was not complete when 2 Timothy was written. To be accurate then, St. Paul was referring to Old Testament Scripture. So Sola Scriptura should include only the Old Testament to be consistent with St. Paul here.

Now, if we take St. Paul in his entirety and not simply select verses here and there, we see that he believed as we see in his 2nd letter to Timothy, that the Old Testament was inspired and “profitable”. That is the key word there particularly when we see him tell Timothy in the first letter the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Just like in the Predestination/Free-Will debate, the truth is both/and, Scripture and Tradition are both a part of the New Covenant divine revelation. This is one of the idiosychrasies of Protestant theology in that it seems to feel the need in so many cases to fly off into one extreme or another, when a complete and thorough understanding of Scripture, even without the Apostolic Tradition, does not support such extremes.

But that is what can happen, I suppose, when authority is rejected.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I don’t think you would try to make this argument if you knew what systematic theology is (I am and have been a serious student of systematic theology since 1993).

This argument sounds like an appeal to authority–“systematic theology”! We bow to your erudition. It would seem scripture is not so clear and perspicous as Luther and Calvin maintained, after all.

 

[Abu]

In his pick and choose, cafeteria style, OldProf conveniently omits “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

But that’s not all. He fails to accept Jesus when Our Lord establishes His Church with His authority and infallibility to teach faith and morals – so clearly affirmed in the Sacred Scriptures given to us by His Church, and concocts all sorts of excuses to evade the obvious.

 

[uther]

This argument sounds like an appeal to authority–“systematic theology”! We bow to your erudition. It would seem scripture is not so clear and perspicous as Luther and Calvin maintained, after all.

LOL, I like that! Appeal to authority, so it would appear that just the average Joe could not pick this up on their own, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as we are so often told in the Sola Scriptura debate.

 

[jcrichton]

thanks, i was actually using my phone. It cant access two site at a time.
Ubenedictus

…sorry!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

uther,
Very interesting post. Free will and predestination have been debated throughout Christian history.

I just posted on another forum regarding justification and free will. The question that remains for me is, “Are we able, even in free will, to respond to the call of Christ without Grace?”

That’s a tough question; because if we are enabled, by Grace, to respond to the call of Christ; has our fee will been altered by Grace? Or is it our desire to respond to the call of Christ that opens the door for God’s Grace, which enables us to respond?

What are your thoughts on this?

Peace,
Anna

Hi, Anna!

…free will is never compromised… as St. Paul reveals, the Holy Spirit comes to our aide to pray for us in an effective way (Romans 8:26-27)… a Way which touches (my interpretation) the Father… but this can only happen if we are truly in Communion with Christ (St. John 14, 15, 16); He, the Holy Spirit, is the Seal with which we (Believers) have been Marked… yet, if we do not walk by the Spirit… well… basically, we are hindering the Holy Spirit (the Lord Giver of Life) and Grace cannot be accepted even though Christ assures us that ‘those who the Father send to Me I will not reject’; hence the Father cannot instruct us (or rather we reject the Father’s Call or Fellowship with Christ–which is spoken of by Christ: ‘But when the Son of man comes, will he find any faith on earth?’ …we, missing the boat, cannot get to Jesus (Salvation).

It all comes down to humble obedience (Abraham’s Faith) not how much we know or think we know about God (Nico, you, a Master of the Law, do not know/understand this?); since it is through the Holy Spirit that both the Father and the Son form their Communion with us, our free will must remain intact in order that we may, ultimately, choose Life (Deuteronomy 30:19)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Anna and Uther (I’ll quickly post from work), it seems clear to me that the “God will not mess with free-will” gospel - which I call the Bruce Almighty Hollywood Gospel - is clearly false from the Scriptures.

Think about Jonah. His statement just before he is vomited out of the great fish is “Salvation is of the Lord.” Jonah 2:9

Think about Paul in Acts 9, and that powerful conversion.

Note: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48) Testimony to God’s sovereignty in the salvation of His elect.

Note: “12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, and it is often verse 12 is used alone, but verse 13 gives credit where credit is due - to God!)

It is hard to boast about “your good decision to become a Christian” when all credit for any righteous decisions and acts belong only to the grace and mercy of God. What do we boast about?

23 Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.” Jeremiah 9:23-24

In Christ, OldProf

OldProf, again you are confusing stew for soup… none is free of sin so none can choose to be in God unless God’s Grace is received. Yet, as powerful as Almighty God is He will not force His Will upon anyone… yes, even Salvation:

25 ‘Now, you say, “What the Lord does is unjust.” Now listen, House of Israel: is what I do unjust? Is it not what you do that is unjust? 26 When the upright abandons uprightness and does wrong and dies, he dies because of the wrong which he himself has done. 27 Similarly, when the wicked abandons wickedness to become law-abiding and upright, he saves his own life. 28 Having chosen to renounce all his previous crimes, he will most certainly live: he will not die. 29 And yet the House of Israel says, “What the Lord does is unjust.” Is what I do unjust, House of Israel? Is it not what you do that is unjust? 30 So in future, House of Israel, I shall judge each of you by what that person does – declares the Lord Yahweh. Repent, renounce all your crimes, avoid all occasions for guilt. 31 Shake off all the crimes you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – declares the Lord Yahweh – so repent and live!’ (Ezekiel 18:25-32)

…the call to Life is not merely sounding off Scriptures or making an oath or reciting a prayer… not even claiming Jesus as Lord and Savior is a guarantee of Salvation!

…the only Guarantee is this:

25 Jesus said: I am the resurrection. Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? (St. John 11:25-26)

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments. 16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you for ever, 17 the Spirit of truth whom the world can never accept since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. 18 I shall not leave you orphans; I shall come to you. 19 In a short time the world will no longer see me; but you will see that I live and you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father and you in me and I in you. 21 Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.’ 22 Judas – not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened, that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?’ 23 Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him. 24 Anyone who does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not my own: it is the word of the Father who sent me. 25 I have said these things to you while still with you; 26 but the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you. (St. John 14:15-26)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. (St. John 15:1-6)

Jesus, not personal knowledge or belief, is our only Guarantee: Salvation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

John Calvin I presume? I would like to see that argument articulated.

If it is true, there are several things that follow.

First: Either God is powerless to save some people, or he is capricious, as we find in Islam’s idea of Allah.

Second: We are wasting our time with a whole host of things we do as Christians, like evangelizing for one. If grace is irresistible and God selects who he will save, what’s the point of evangelizing?
Another is making any attempt to follow any kind of moral life. If God intends to save us, then we will be moral without even trying. If he doesn’t, we will fall away anyway because we are not one of the chosen.

Third: Jesus and Peter both deceived us when they told us that God is not willing that anyone should be lost. If he has the power to save us, and his grace is irresistible, then he must be willing to lose some, because Jesus told us that the broad road that leads to destruction is well populated.

We could carry on from there but you get the idea.

As to “Bruce Almighty Hollywood”, the Council of Trent was written long before you or I or Jim Carrey were born, and in it we find that Catholic teaching, totally Scriptural, that we are able to reject God’s grace.

What are the two commandments on which hang all the law and the Prophets? And how are we to love without free will?

Excellent post Uther! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

fhansen, I understand you to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which can provide the infallible interpretation of Scripture. It’s that simple. And a Jehovah’s Witness, who belongs to the true Christian Church with the Governing Body as the infallible interpreter, can say, “Ascertaining the faith is simpler than all this.” And the Mormon Elder, who has the living prophet and apostles (past and present) as the infallible interpreter, can say, “Ascertaining the faith is simpler than all this.”

When out defending the faith (earnestly contending, Jude 3), you WILL hear statements just like these. I can guarantee it.

And then we have the Bible, which says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3:16-17 NKJV

So it is your contention that the Bible is inadequate, correct? Would St. Paul agree with you?

Regards, OldProf

…OldProf… are you contending that Scriptures are stating that every man can speak for God because God is known through the Sacred Scriptures?

…so when Obam and his ministers claim to be speaking for Christ in embracing homosexuality and abortion, sorry, I meant “women’s health” you are supportive of their Biblical findings to support their views and the statues that they are bent on forcing the world to accept through their “new world order?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Anna, it is of interest to read Jonah chapters 1 and 2. Read Acts 9 (the Lord to Ananias, "15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”). God acts against freewill, in some obvious cases like these, and He hardens hearts sometimes. Those things have to be part of the understanding of freewill doctrine.

What righteousness does the natural man have? (Rom 3:9-18, Eph 2:1, Matt 8:22) Isn’t the natural man spiritually dead, as the Bible clearly teaches? What power does the dead man have?

Sincerely, OldProf

…you keep missing the point: Israel is Yahweh God’s First-born… yet, Israel is left to its own will when rejecting God!

…but even this is used by God for the benefit of those He Loves (Romans 9:1 through 11:32); it is God’s intention that all shall inherit Eternal Life… however not all chose Salvation:

16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son. 19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; (St. John 3:16-20)

…it is not that God has no Power to bring forth Salvation; rather, it it man who has the ultimate choice to willingly obey God or reject Him.

…as for God’s Servants… when you pit your will against God, He can compel you to acquiesce… however, if you stubbornly decide to reject Him and became your own god… well we know how that ends!

…still, OldProf, you are free to choose to believe that God is some dictator who “saves” some and “damn” others according to whim! (…that’s how free will works!)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In his pick and choose, cafeteria style, OldProf conveniently omits “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

But that’s not all. He fails to accept Jesus when Our Lord establishes His Church with His authority and infallibility to teach faith and morals – so clearly affirmed in the Sacred Scriptures given to us by His Church, and concocts all sorts of excuses to evade the obvious.

…that’s the problem with those who reject Sacred Tradition… even when Scriptures are attesting to the Written and Oral Tradition (Word of God), they reject it.

…yet, it is understandable since it is the only way that nearly 1500 years of Church History can be ignored or dismissed… they are caught in the quintessential paradox: accept Sacred Tradition and Church History and still remain Protestant… one cannot do both–even if Protestantism is against Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

In his pick and choose, cafeteria style, OldProf conveniently omits “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

But that’s not all. He fails to accept Jesus when Our Lord establishes His Church with His authority and infallibility to teach faith and morals – so clearly affirmed in the Sacred Scriptures given to us by His Church, and concocts all sorts of excuses to evade the obvious.

Abu, so you think I pick and choose Scriptures and ignore others. IF that were the case, I would indeed be a VERY poor student of systematic theology. This just shows you have a mistaken understanding of systematic theology which takes all Scriptures into account.

Mistake #1: You made a mistaken assertion. I don’t ignore ANY Scriptures.

You bring up John 21:25 which you say I conveniently omit. Do you even think about that verse? You can read all the gospel accounts in just a few hours. Of course there are a tremendous number of events not included. But that wasn’t the purpose of John’s gospel, was it. He states his purpose in John 20:30-31.

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So his Gospel is sufficient to believe unto life. And we know from the multiple references in the Gospel to eternal life that John means eternal life here in verse 31 as well. The Scriptures ARE sufficient, just not exhaustive. It’s like when John writes “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13. Believers know they can have an assurance of salvation.

Mistake #2: You think I omit John 21:25 because that would be a problem for me. Not so.

You say I don’t accept the Church established by Jesus, etc. I completely accept the Church established by Jesus. However, like all (I think “all” is correct) Protestant churches, we do not believe Jesus Christ or any of the apostles would recognize the Roman Catholic church as the true church today. The church is made up of the body of believers in Jesus Christ. “Good” Jews or “good” Muslims or “good” atheists who do NOT believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour are not a part of the true church because, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36. RC ecumenism seems to contradict the Scriptures, and that is unacceptable.

Mistake #3: You clearly do not have an accurate understanding of Protestantism.

3 mistakes in your very short post. Hmmm, what ELSE do you have wrong?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

…OldProf… are you contending that Scriptures are stating that every man can speak for God because God is known through the Sacred Scriptures?

…so when Obam and his ministers claim to be speaking for Christ in embracing homosexuality and abortion, sorry, I meant “women’s health” you are supportive of their Biblical findings to support their views and the statues that they are bent on forcing the world to accept through their “new world order?”

Maran atha!

Angel

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

…you keep missing the point: Israel is Yahweh God’s First-born… yet, Israel is left to its own will when rejecting God!

…but even this is used by God for the benefit of those He Loves (Romans 9:1 through 11:32); it is God’s intention that all shall inherit Eternal Life… however not all chose Salvation:

…it is not that God has no Power to bring forth Salvation; rather, it it man who has the ultimate choice to willingly obey God or reject Him.

…as for God’s Servants… when you pit your will against God, He can compel you to acquiesce… however, if you stubbornly decide to reject Him and became your own god… well we know how that ends!

…still, OldProf, you are free to choose to believe that God is some dictator who “saves” some and “damn” others according to whim! (…that’s how free will works!)

Maran atha!

Angel

Clearly I reject your assertions. What power does the dead man have? How can the dead man “choose” to do anything righteous?

OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

…but you stated that Scriptures alone are the key… they are using Scriptures alone… just like the thousands of sects that continue to produce thousands more (which of course is what Jesus and the Apostles intended, right?), each guided by the Holy Scriptures and their bran of Holy Spirit guidance… do you not see the fallacy in your quest… denounce Christ’s Church as illegitimate while your runaway brides as the true Bride?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Clearly I reject your assertions. What power does the dead man have? How can the dead man “choose” to do anything righteous?

OldProf

…again you seem to confuse sea shells with see sheves… sin has no power but to chose death… a Christian is just this side of not dead but he/she continues to have the freedom to choose death… right this very moment, how many “Christians” are not out there killing their own babies in their respective Moms’ wombs and they have no problem visiting their religious congregation thinking that they have the right to do as they please with their bodies?

…how many are not, at this very moment, committing all sorts of other sins… many who believe that Jesus already paid the price for their past, present and future sin so they can go ahead and do as they please?

…just check your own posts… you claim to study Scriptures and to not ignore any… but when Scriptures tell you that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth you get your dancing shoes on and reject Christ’s Church… you debase her and demean her although Scriptures forbid that you should treat your brethren with offense…

…I know, I know… you have studied that systematical thingy for many years… (get my drift?)

OldProf, either Jesus was right or He had it wrong… either the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, was sent or He missed the boat… we cannot have the Body of Christ become a multitude of alienated portions of Christ that come together only to reject Christ’s only founded Church and claim superiority through personal revelations and behaviors because we can point out perceived flaws in His Body while simultaneously claiming to be conjoined with Christ’s “original” Church…

…again, as you have suggested to others, I say to you: read the Sacred Scriptures… but put away your savvy methodology and allow the Holy Spirit to Truly convict you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fhansen]

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

It still gets back to having to determine just who the elect are. We all think we’re hearing the Shepards’ voice accurately.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Ubenedictus, I think 1 John 2:19 is helpful: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

A person who appears to be an active Christian, yet is not really a Christian (or one of Jesus sheep), will not persevere in the faith. They would not be an overcomer, and they will leave the faith. But they never were one of Jesus sheep. They may think they are a good person, or even a good Christian, but Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:23 ESV)

Regards, OldProf

Yep, I guess you’re right. We have assurance of salvation if we are one of Jesus’ sheep, but we never have asssurance if we are really one of Jesus’ sheep or not!

 

[mackbrislawn]

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

I’m not sure what the purpose of scripture is. After all, the elect don’t need scripture since they are of the elect anyway. And to the non-elect, scripture doesn’t do them any good.