Assurance of Salvation

[Zosimus41]

I hope this is the right place to put this thread

I have a question about the Catholic teachings about assurance of salvation and how to defend it. My mother, who is a Protestant minister, just recently finished a course in Protestant evangelization and decided that I would be a good person to start with My mother has no problem now with me becoming a Baptized Catholic soon, but she wanted to make sure that I knew the ‘full gospel’. Although I know that she had good intentions, many of the things that she tried to convince me of were extremely contrary to Catholic teaching, such as sola fide and assurance of salvation. She repeatedly asked me the question ‘If you were to die today, would you know for sure you would go to Heaven?’ I told her that I hope to go to Heaven, but that this decision was up to God and not me. She then told me that ‘We need to rely on God’s promises because He told us that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.’ I tried to explain to her in a kind way that we are not saved by faith alone and explained to her my position on assurance of salvation, but she continued to ask me over again. Finally, she asked me again. It was 11:30 PM, I was tired, somewhat frustrated, and I wanted to go to bed, and so I just smiled and said ‘Most certainly !’ and then she let me off.

So my questions are:

1. Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?
2. How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?

Thanks and God bless!

I dont believe one is “saved” until your judged to salvation. You dont judge yourself. St Paul Worte “If I be saved” We are not guaranteed salvation we hope for salvation.

Here is a good reference site for you scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

 

[OldProf]

I’m not sure what the purpose of scripture is. After all, the elect don’t need scripture since they are of the elect anyway. And to the non-elect, scripture doesn’t do them any good.

Since you don’t know, here are a few reasons:

The Scriptures give us factual history to tell us of our Creator, Messiah, and Redeemer.
Jesus corrected the Pharisees using Scripture.
Jesus taught the disciples using Scripture.
Jesus reminded the disciples on the road to Emmaus how the Scriptures foretold of His coming in Luke 24.
It is a standard to judge false teaching, as the Bereans knew in Acts 17.
It tells us that works have no role in salvation so no one can boast.

Paul tells Timothy:

10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

From 2 Tim 3:10-17. That’s good to know, isn’t it?

Paul tells us about man’s inabilities and God’s calling (in many places, in Romans, in Galations, in Ephesians - see Rom 8:28 for an example).

Jesus can give us assurance:

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:37-40

Jesus says his sheep will never perish, a strong word “never” that means not now or at any future time (John 10:28, but best studied in the full context of John 9:1 thru 10:30).

John can give us assurance as he finished his letter (1 John) which begins with, "1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. And as he finishes near the end, he tells us, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)

The Scriptures are given to the Elect so they can KNOW GOD.

KNOW GOD - KNOW TRUTH.
NO GOD - NO TRUTH.

I can give many more reasons, but I have limited time at work.

Regards, OldProf

 

[pablope]

Since you don’t know, here are a few reasons:

The Scriptures give us factual history to tell us of our Creator, Messiah, and Redeemer.
Jesus corrected the Pharisees using Scripture.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Since you don’t know, here are a few reasons:

The Scriptures give us factual history to tell us of our Creator, Messiah, and Redeemer.
Jesus corrected the Pharisees using Scripture.
Jesus taught the disciples using Scripture.
Jesus reminded the disciples on the road to Emmaus how the Scriptures foretold of His coming in Luke 24.
It is a standard to judge false teaching, as the Bereans knew in Acts 17.
It tells us that works have no role in salvation so no one can boast.

Paul tells Timothy:

10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

From 2 Tim 3:10-17. That’s good to know, isn’t it?

Paul tells us about man’s inabilities and God’s calling (in many places, in Romans, in Galations, in Ephesians - see Rom 8:28 for an example).

Jesus can give us assurance:

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:37-40

Jesus says his sheep will never perish, a strong word “never” that means not now or at any future time (John 10:28, but best studied in the full context of John 9:1 thru 10:30).

John can give us assurance as he finished his letter (1 John) which begins with, "1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. And as he finishes near the end, he tells us, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)

The Scriptures are given to the Elect so they can KNOW GOD.

KNOW GOD - KNOW TRUTH.
NO GOD - NO TRUTH.

I can give many more reasons, but I have limited time at work.

Regards, OldProf

Well, you did give many reasons, but more would be redundant, since none of it is to the point anyway.

Because the elect will be saved and know God without all the above reasons. After all, they are the elect, and they will be saved regardless of scripture or not. The damned are damned, and all the scripture reading and knowing about God will do them no good.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

and how do we know the elect? Is it the guy who just recited the sinners prayer and is save, then later is not saved because he didnt keep the faith or didnt run the race to the finish? Oldprof do you know with infalliability that your name is in that book of life? Are you hoping or do u have infalliable assurance of your eternal destiny? Tell me oldprof. How sure is your assurance?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Clearly I reject your assertions. What power does the dead man have? How can the dead man “choose” to do anything righteous?

OldProf

how dead is dead? The fallen man and choose to do something righteous when aided by actual grace.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Anna, it is of interest to read Jonah chapters 1 and 2. Read Acts 9 (the Lord to Ananias, "15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”). God acts against freewill, in some obvious cases like these, and He hardens hearts sometimes. Those things have to be part of the understanding of freewill doctrine.

What righteousness does the natural man have? (Rom 3:9-18, Eph 2:1, Matt 8:22) Isn’t the natural man spiritually dead, as the Bible clearly teaches? What power does the dead man have?

Sincerely, OldProf

man does not have ‘natural righteousness’. How dead is dead?
Ubenedictus

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why do some people think that God makjs people robots incapable of exercising freewill and being able to leave Him when they are saved?

Would a loving God restrict man’s freedom like that?

If God is love how could God restrict their freewill?

 

[Oumashta]

Guys, I hate to ruin your heated debate, but I think that debates such as these do not bring people anywhere. Speaking from personal experience as a former Protestant, I used to debate with Catholics about issues such as these, and I was entirely unconvinced; that was until one day it suddenly ‘struck’ :newidea:me, if you could say that, that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Even now, I’ve realized that no matter how well-reasoned and scripture-supported your arguments for our Catholic faith are, they will have no ability to convince unless the Protestant has an open and willing heart to seek the truth (which obviously many are so committed to their beliefs that no amount of scripture could alter their personal interpretation) or Our Lord works in them and shows them the truth.

You guys have completely deviated from my original intent of this thread, which was to ask advice. Honestly, if, after 21 pages of arguing no Protestant is convinced of the Catholic faith, then I would just tell them to pray about it, pray the Holy Rosary for them, and leave it up to God for their conversion

Hope you guys pay attention to this message…

 

[fhansen]

Guys, I hate to ruin your heated debate, but I think that debates such as these do not bring people anywhere. Speaking from personal experience as a former Protestant, I used to debate with Catholics about issues such as these, and I was entirely unconvinced; that was until one day it suddenly ‘struck’ :newidea:me, if you could say that, that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Even now, I’ve realized that no matter how well-reasoned and scripture-supported your arguments for our Catholic faith are, they will have no ability to convince unless the Protestant has an open and willing heart to seek the truth (which obviously many are so committed to their beliefs that no amount of scripture could alter their personal interpretation) or Our Lord works in them and shows them the truth.

You guys have completely deviated from my original intent of this thread, which was to ask advice. Honestly, if, after 21 pages of arguing no Protestant is convinced of the Catholic faith, then I would just tell them to pray about it, pray the Holy Rosary for them, and leave it up to God for their conversion

Hope you guys pay attention to this message…

With all due respect I think some good ground was covered and seeds were planted. Not sure why you would’ve asked the question if you thought there was no answer. And BTW, I believe that lots of debates I was in as a Protestant had their affect-it just takes time-but they could still have been part of the reason why something “struck” you later on. Come to think of it, debating scripture was part of what caused me to see the fallacy behind the sola scriptura doctrine. That’s how I came to know I had to search beyond that for an authority.

 

[fbl9]

Why do some people think that God makjs people robots incapable of exercising freewill and being able to leave Him when they are saved?

Would a loving God restrict man’s freedom like that?

If God is love how could God restrict their freewill?

One could ask why wouldn’t a loving God keep some one from leaving Him? After all Jesus suffered so much for that person.

You love your children yet you restrict their freewill for their own good.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The only problem with that reasoning is reasoning is in Romans where the scriptures say “Love does not demand it’s own way”.

Since “God is love” then God can’t “demand His own way”.

It IS true that the elect are predestined–the Catholic Church teaches that.

The Catholic Church also teaches that even though that is true–that fact is know only to God and also only to others on Earth that God would give a special revelation of that truth

99.9999999999999999999999999% of us aren’t given a special revelation

So we “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” while ALSO trusting in the divine Mercy of Jesus.

The truth is multifaceted and simple–easy and difficult!

Catholics have no problem with truths such as these–God is infinite–if we already KNOW how God will judge each particular soul including our own–God would not be infinite!

If you’re Protestant TRY to search for the God who is BIGGER than a simple one track mind God.

You won’t find that God with a “once saved always saved” mentality!

 

[fhansen]

The only problem with that reasoning is reasoning is in Romans where the scriptures say “Love does not demand it’s own way”.

Since “God is love” then God can’t “demand His own way”.

It IS true that the elect are predestined–the Catholic Church teaches that.

The Catholic Church also teaches that even though that is true–that fact is know only to God and also only to others on Earth that God would give a special revelation of that truth

99.9999999999999999999999999% of us aren’t given a special revelation

So we “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” while ALSO trusting in the divine Mercy of Jesus.

The truth is multifaceted and simple–easy and difficult!

Catholics have no problem with truths such as these–God is infinite–if we already KNOW how God will judge each particular soul including our own–God would not be infinite!

If you’re Protestant TRY to search for the God who is BIGGER than a simple one track mind God.

You won’t find that God with a “once saved always saved” mentality!

Here’s one of the most relevant Catechism citations on the “elect”. Our free choices are never uninvolved.
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

 

[OldProf]

With all due respect I think some good ground was covered and seeds were planted. Not sure why you would’ve asked the question if you thought there was no answer. And BTW, I believe that lots of debates I was in as a Protestant had their affect-it just takes time-but they could still have been part of the reason why something “struck” you later on. Come to think of it, debating scripture was part of what caused me to see the fallacy behind the sola scriptura doctrine. That’s how I came to know I had to search beyond that for an authority.

I’ve always liked a good theological debate, so, Oumashta, I have to agree (with some reservations, of course) with fhansen here. My contention is that the Scriptures are sufficient to tell us that we can, indeed, have an assurance of salvation. And they are sufficient to make us wise unto salvation. And they are sufficient to completely prepare us for work that brings glory to God. And they are sufficient to allow us to go toe-to-toe with an atheist to earnestly contend for the faith, and to do so with a humble but firm attitude. And they are sufficient to help us discern false teaching and teachers. And much more.

Many questions and verses have been brought up in this discussion for which I have very good answers, but I haven’t had the time to sit down and properly craft the answer, so stay tuned.

“Assurance of Salvation” - It’s a good topic!

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Well, you did give many reasons, but more would be redundant, since none of it is to the point anyway.

Because the elect will be saved and know God without all the above reasons. After all, they are the elect, and they will be saved regardless of scripture or not. The damned are damned, and all the scripture reading and knowing about God will do them no good.

There is no question the Bible teaches “election.” A Christian needs to study the doctrine and have an understanding of what election means and how it fits. I think, mackbrislawn, that you do not have a very good understanding of election based on your responses so far.

The elect will have a great desire to know God. Yes, they are saved, they are part of Jesus’ flock, and they will never perish. But they have a fervent desire for God.

They can say with Paul, “for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” 2 Tim 1:12.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics teach election–they also teach that other than by a special revelation of God that one cannot know if they are of the elect or not.

So the question isn’t about the elect–it is about who all knows God’s elect and when they know it.

If it is easy to know if you are God’s elect or not–then ALOT of the bibles teachings and even the teachings of christ do not make sense.

“Abide in me” and burning braches of the vine that do not bear fruit but are alive and “abiding in Christ” the big vine when they are CUT OFF AND BURNED just doesn’t make sens.

Tell me oh OSAS proponents–how can you be alive and part of the vine–and then be cut off and burned?

 

[mackbrislawn]

There is no question the Bible teaches “election.” A Christian needs to study the doctrine and have an understanding of what election means and how it fits. I think, mackbrislawn, that you do not have a very good understanding of election based on your responses so far.

The elect will have a great desire to know God. Yes, they are saved, they are part of Jesus’ flock, and they will never perish. But they have a fervent desire for God.

They can say with Paul, “for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” 2 Tim 1:12.

Regards, OldProf

Well, OldProf, I think you’re right. I don’t have a very good understanding of election. Because if my understanding is right, election makes no sense. So if it makes no sense to me, it is possible I misunderstand it. Or maybe it makes no sense after all.

However, I laid out my understanding of election and non-election, and have not been corrected. I laid it out bluntly and in bare bones. So, what is the correct understanding?

 

[mackbrislawn]

One could ask why wouldn’t a loving God keep some one from leaving Him? After all Jesus suffered so much for that person.

You love your children yet you restrict their freewill for their own good.

This is a valid question.

The answer is because we are children of God and not slaves. When a slave leaves, the owner goes and drags him back. But when a grown son leaves, the father can only hope he comes back. This is as in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son was permitted to go, because he was a son and not a slave. The father had already forgiven the son, even when the son was consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs. The father was continually waiting for the son’s return, and so spied him from far off, and ran to meet him.

That is the way our heavenly Father is. We are already forgiven, but it does us no good until we return to Him and ask to return to His fold.

 

[fbl9]

This is a valid question.

The answer is because we are children of God and not slaves. When a slave leaves, the owner goes and drags him back. But when a grown son leaves, the father can only hope he comes back. This is as in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son was permitted to go, because he was a son and not a slave. The father had already forgiven the son, even when the son was consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs. The father was continually waiting for the son’s return, and so spied him from far off, and ran to meet him.

That is the way our heavenly Father is. We are already forgiven, but it does us no good until we return to Him and ask to return to His fold.

Good answer:thumbsup:

 

[OldProf]

This is a valid question.

The answer is because we are children of God and not slaves. When a slave leaves, the owner goes and drags him back. But when a grown son leaves, the father can only hope he comes back. This is as in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son was permitted to go, because he was a son and not a slave. The father had already forgiven the son, even when the son was consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs. The father was continually waiting for the son’s return, and so spied him from far off, and ran to meet him.

That is the way our heavenly Father is. We are already forgiven, but it does us no good until we return to Him and ask to return to His fold.

mackbrislawn, I see that fbl9 is pleased with your answer. But is it really a good Scriptural answer?

Jesus has a follower, a sheep, that leaves the flock, and the “Good Shepherd” doesn’t go after it and return it to the flock. Why is He a good shepherd if that is the case?

All that the Father gives to Him shall be raised up on the last day. Right? But not this one, since this follower in his freewill decided not to follow Jesus and to actually reject him. Is that even possible?

Consider 1: John 6:37-40 ESV

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Consider 2: 1 John 2:19 ESV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Consider 3: Luke 15:4-6 ESV

4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’

Consider 4: Php 1:6 ESV

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I think the Scriptural answer is that Jesus sheep, the chosen (or elect) ones, will never in their freewill choose to leave. They will continue in their faith and trust in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, so they can trust in His finished work on the cross and have peace with God.

Regards, OldProf