Assurance of Salvation

[mackbrislawn]

mackbrislawn, I see that fbl9 is pleased with your answer. But is it really a good Scriptural answer?

Jesus has a follower, a sheep, that leaves the flock, and the “Good Shepherd” doesn’t go after it and return it to the flock. Why is He a good shepherd if that is the case?

All that the Father gives to Him shall be raised up on the last day. Right? But not this one, since this follower in his freewill decided not to follow Jesus and to actually reject him. Is that even possible?

Consider 1: John 6:37-40 ESV

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Consider 2: 1 John 2:19 ESV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Consider 3: Luke 15:4-6 ESV

4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’

Consider 4: Php 1:6 ESV

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I think the Scriptural answer is that Jesus sheep, the chosen (or elect) ones, will never in their freewill choose to leave. They will continue in their faith and trust in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, so they can trust in His finished work on the cross and have peace with God.

Regards, OldProf

I think my answer is scriptural. The NT is full of exhortations against falling away. That is the gestalt I take from it. So using the principle scripture interprets scripture, including the parable of the prodigal son, we find that we can trust Jesus not to cast us out, but if we do leave as sons, he will still be looking for us, and, like the father of the prodigal son, run out to meet us and rejoice that he has found us. God will not ever deny us as His children. John 15:6.

But, John 6:40, everyone who looks on the Son and believes in His should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. This passage makes it clear that one who does not believe does not have eternal life. So if one quits believing in the Son, that one will not be raised up on the last day. That is why the writers in the NT continue warning against listening to false teachers and falling away from the true gospel.

Certainly, we can have peace, because we have a Father we can trust, unlike the fickle pagan gods. We can trust Him not to get drunk and cast us out. But, can we trust ourselves? We might go out from Him sometime in the future. What if we lose our faith? I guess then we show we were never Christian to begin with! Never saved to start! That doesn’t sound like peace to me.

 

[jcrichton]

Nope. I contend that Scriptures are sufficient for God’s elect. For God’s non-elect they can be any number of things, from complete and utter foolishness to wonderful world literature. The non-elect can twist the Scriptures in many ways contrary to God’s true message and good news.

Regards, OldProf

…problem is that all those who contend that they speak for God do so using your own interpretation: remove Chist’s only founded Church and be your own authority!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

One could ask why wouldn’t a loving God keep some one from leaving Him? After all Jesus suffered so much for that person.

You love your children yet you restrict their freewill for their own good.

…but how many children love and respect you for keeping them from excercising their free will?

It comes a time when even the best parents must allow their children to make their own determantions about the life they choose to lead… otherwise… they failed miserably as parents! It is the Loving the children in spite of their failures and shortcomings and assisting them on their way to reform (repentence/contriction)–ie: drug/alcohol abuse.

Conversely, it could have been quite easy for Jesus to retain all of His followers by either forcing His Will upon them or changing His Language (St. John 6) or placating the Jews by denouncing that He is God… rather than trick them into submission or “performing” for them Jesus simply lets them go… turning to His chosen and challenging them to Commit: “what about you, will you too leave?”

The issue of Commitment is quite pronounce (as above) at times but for the most part it is hidden (“when the Son of man returns will He find Faith on earth?”); the choice is always left to man to determine if he wants to maintain his fellowship with God… if so… the terms are none negotiable: “…chose Life!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

mackbrislawn, I see that fbl9 is pleased with your answer. But is it really a good Scriptural answer?

Jesus has a follower, a sheep, that leaves the flock, and the “Good Shepherd” doesn’t go after it and return it to the flock. Why is He a good shepherd if that is the case?

All that the Father gives to Him shall be raised up on the last day. Right? But not this one, since this follower in his freewill decided not to follow Jesus and to actually reject him. Is that even possible?

Consider 1: John 6:37-40 ESV

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Consider 2: 1 John 2:19 ESV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Consider 3: Luke 15:4-6 ESV

4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’

Consider 4: Php 1:6 ESV

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I think the Scriptural answer is that Jesus sheep, the chosen (or elect) ones, will never in their freewill choose to leave. They will continue in their faith and trust in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, so they can trust in His finished work on the cross and have peace with God.

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, are you still up to your tricks?

…here’s Biblical proof: and the Word is God; the Word is the Light of the world; He came to His Own and they rejected Him; then He gave all the Power to become Children of God… those who Believe in Him/His Name…

…yet, not all who chose to be in Him remained since He told them point blank: get away from Me evil doers… you think that by quoting Scriptures you can gain Salvation?

…I brought down to personal interlocution to see if it makes you think insied Scriptures: St. John 1; 3; 15; St. Matthew 7:21-23.

…it is Jesus Christ Himself who warns you not to rely on your own understanding and abilities but to humbly submit to Him… for without Him we are nothing!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fbl9]

All that the Father gives to Him shall be raised up on the last day. Right? But not this one, since this follower in his freewill decided not to follow Jesus and to actually reject him. Is that even possible?

 

[Ubenedictus]

There is no question the Bible teaches “election.” A Christian needs to study the doctrine and have an understanding of what election means and how it fits. I think, mackbrislawn, that you do not have a very good understanding of election based on your responses so far.

The elect will have a great desire to know God. Yes, they are saved, they are part of Jesus’ flock, and they will never perish. But they have a fervent desire for God.

They can say with Paul, “for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” 2 Tim 1:12.

Regards, OldProf

yeah yeah yeah he will be able to keep what you have committed to him, to commit is like to give, what happens when you dont want to commit? That is the question.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

mackbrislawn, I see that fbl9 is pleased with your answer. But is it really a good Scriptural answer?

Jesus has a follower, a sheep, that leaves the flock, and the “Good Shepherd” doesn’t go after it and return it to the flock. Why is He a good shepherd if that is the case?

All that the Father gives to Him shall be raised up on the last day. Right? But not this one, since this follower in his freewill decided not to follow Jesus and to actually reject him. Is that even possible?

yeah that is what happened to judas, ‘none was lost but he who chose to be lost’ and by choosing to be lost he fulfilled the scripture.

Consider 1: John 6:37-40 ESV

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Consider 2: 1 John 2:19 ESV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Consider 3: Luke 15:4-6 ESV

4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’

Consider 4: Php 1:6 ESV

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I think the Scriptural answer is that Jesus sheep, the chosen (or elect) ones, will never in their freewill choose to leave. They will continue in their faith and trust in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, so they can trust in His finished work on the cross and have peace with God.

Regards, OldProf

and who are the chosen elect? Is it the guy who just said the sinners prayer? You said earlier that those who keeps the faith till the end are the elect, so how do you know the elect when you havent reached the end? I know the elect will keep the faith, the question is who are the elect? Are you one of the elect old prof? How do you know?
Ubenedictus

 

[OldProf]

I think my answer is scriptural. The NT is full of exhortations against falling away. That is the gestalt I take from it. So using the principle scripture interprets scripture, including the parable of the prodigal son, we find that we can trust Jesus not to cast us out, but if we do leave as sons, he will still be looking for us, and, like the father of the prodigal son, run out to meet us and rejoice that he has found us. God will not ever deny us as His children. John 15:6.

But, John 6:40, everyone who looks on the Son and believes in His should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. This passage makes it clear that one who does not believe does not have eternal life. So if one quits believing in the Son, that one will not be raised up on the last day. That is why the writers in the NT continue warning against listening to false teachers and falling away from the true gospel.

Certainly, we can have peace, because we have a Father we can trust, unlike the fickle pagan gods. We can trust Him not to get drunk and cast us out. But, can we trust ourselves? We might go out from Him sometime in the future. What if we lose our faith? I guess then we show we were never Christian to begin with! Never saved to start! That doesn’t sound like peace to me.

mackbrislawn, just to make sure you understand. You are trying to defend the position that a sheep in Jesus’ flock can be lost and go to hell.

If so, then

1. Jesus lied when He said His sheep will never perish (John 10:28).
2. Jesus cannot do the will of the Father to raise up all the sheep on the last day (John 6:39).
3. John is wrong that Christians will continue in the faith (1 John 2:19).
4. Jesus loses sheep proving He is not a good shepherd (Luke 15:4-6, John 10:11).
5. Paul is wrong in that a good work begun by God will actually fail (Php 1:6).
6. Hebrews 12:2 is wrong - it is man who is the “finisher” of his faith.

Do you really want to defend that? I think you really need to reconsider the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). The youngest son was one of the elect who went astray. The older son, like the self righteous Pharisee, was not. Dr. John MacArthur, in his book “The Tale of Two Sons,” provides a full analysis and contextual argument. In a book review, Tim Challies says,

“In the book’s opening chapter MacArthur makes clear the central and culminating lesson of the parable: “Jesus is pointing out the stark contrast between God’s own delight in the redemption of sinners and the Pharisees’ inflexible hostility toward those same sinners.” Though the younger son is important to the story, his redemption is not the main point. Rather, this parable is to serve as “a mirror for every human heart and conscience” that will reflect either God’s love for fallen sinners or a human hardness and arrogance that would deny that such hardened sinners could ever know His love.”

Regarding the exhortations to falling away, remember CONTEXT IS KEY! See my response to jchrichton below.
Regarding warnings about false teachers, that still applies today.
If you have specific questions on John 15 (pretty common with those who think the sheep can be lost), what are they?
The sheep, the elect, can have joy and peace (John 15:11, Rom 15:13, Gal 5:22) and assurance (1 John 5:13).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

OldProf, are you still up to your tricks?

Tricks? I don’t know what you mean by that. My goal is honest discourse on the assurance of salvation, which I believe a Christian can have. I’m sorry you think I’m trying to trick people on this forum.

I’ll clarify my position. I will continue to “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3 … I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.) The Bible says to do it, and I will. Furthermore, I will use contextual biblical arguments. CONTEXT is KEY! The mistake made by so many of the respondents so far is their inability to apply the Scriptures in context with what else is written, and the Scriptures allow Christian’s to be “thoroughly equipped” (16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17) for this very task.

…here’s Biblical proof: and the Word is God; the Word is the Light of the world; He came to His Own and they rejected Him; then He gave all the Power to become Children of God… those who Believe in Him/His Name…

Context is key! This is John 1. Don’t forget John 1:12-13 verses which are vital to the context. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Note, born of God! Man’s will? NO! God chooses the sheep, the elect, the born again ones. Those sheep, the believers, NEVER perish. Jesus said they NEVER perish. Context? John 9:1 thru 10:30. PLEASE READ IT!

As I stated on this thread way back in post #42 on page 3:

"Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.

Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.

The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)"

IF a sheep of Jesus perishes, then Jesus is a liar. But, of course, that is not the case.

…yet, not all who chose to be in Him remained since He told them point blank: get away from Me evil doers… you think that by quoting Scriptures you can gain Salvation?

I guess from John 5:39? (Can you please just include the Scripture reference?) That’s the problem - THEY CHOSE, not God. And they didn’t remain, which proves they were not a sheep of Jesus in the first place. And Jesus, speaking to the judgmental and unbelieving Jews here, is rebuking those who ARE NOT HIS SHEEP yet they act like they know the Scriptures. Not only do they not know the Scriptures, they don’t know Jesus either.

…I brought down to personal interlocution to see if it makes you think insied Scriptures: St. John 1; 3; 15; St. Matthew 7:21-23.

I don’t know what you mean here. I assure you that I don’t ignore these Scriptures in my studies, and I embrace them in my theology.

…it is Jesus Christ Himself who warns you not to rely on your own understanding and abilities but to humbly submit to Him… for without Him we are nothing!

Maran atha!

Angel

We may agree here. A person without Jesus Christ as Savior, is simply a sinner and unbeliever on the wide road to hell. They are in desperate need of a Savior! I, for one, will warn them. And I will give them the Gospel of Peace (Eph 6:14-16. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.).

Angel, do you know what the Gospel of Peace is?

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Catholics teach election–they also teach that other than by a special revelation of God that one cannot know if they are of the elect or not.

So the question isn’t about the elect–it is about who all knows God’s elect and when they know it.

If it is easy to know if you are God’s elect or not–then ALOT of the bibles teachings and even the teachings of christ do not make sense.

“Abide in me” and burning braches of the vine that do not bear fruit but are alive and “abiding in Christ” the big vine when they are CUT OFF AND BURNED just doesn’t make sens.

Tell me oh OSAS proponents–how can you be alive and part of the vine–and then be cut off and burned?

John 15:1-6 ESV (see biblegateway dot com)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Jerry-Jet, are you referring to John 15:1-6?

Regards, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

fbl9, neither you nor I want to support error. Proper use of Scripture IS imperative. That is why the Jews in Berea were designated as “noble” (Acts 17:11) when they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm Paul’s teaching. The Scriptures are what we are to study to be approved by God (2 Tim 2:15) so Christians will be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17).

If you have been following my responses, I have provided a context that demonstrates Jesus sheep will never perish (John 9:1 thru John 10:30 – Jesus sheep never perish, John 6:37-40, Jesus will not lose any that the Father gives Him – that is the will of the Father). Scripturally, we know the sheep are the elect of God (see Eph 1:3-14).

Therefore, you seem to think that Romans 11:22 is a challenge to this, such that it shows the sheep can perish. Let’s settle the context of this verse. Paul is writing to the Romans, which has a considerable number of non-Jewish believers. Paul is, of course, the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

In Romans 9 thru 11, Paul tells about God’s dealings with Israel, past and present, and where the Gentiles fit in (or are grafted in). These verses indicate a corporate view of God’s chosen people, their unbelief, and promises both for Israel and Gentile believers as a corporate whole.

Verses 9:1-5 tell us of Israel’s rejection of Christ (not a good thing!) and Paul’s sorrow and grief over that.

Verses 9:6-13 tell us of Israel’s unbelief and yet it is consistent with God’s purposes (6-13), His mercy and justice (14-24), and His prophetic revelation and prerequisite of faith (25-33).

Verses 10:1-13 tell us of Israel’s need for the gospel and their ignorance of God and ignorance of placing faith in Jesus Christ. Note vv. 3-4 and the real danger of a system of works righteousness – it is faith in Christ, not works. And v. 13, whoever believes (and only the elect will, because only the elect have been given the ability to believe), whether Jew or Gentile, will be saved. Remember, a person who is “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1) is “dead” – thus unable to do anything righteous (Rom 3:10).

Verses 10:14-21 tell us of Israel’s rejection of the Gospel, and how the Gentiles will receive the Gospel and salvation.

Verses 11:1-10 tell us Israel is not totally rejected – the elect remnant remains and understands grace, not works, in accordance with the Old Testament.

Verses 11:11-26 tell us that though Israel has fallen, the promises still apply. The root remains good, but branches are removed (unbelieving Jews) and other branches are grafted in (Gentile believers). Now to the challenge of your verse.

The context of 11:22 is that God has sovereignly decided to put Israel aside for a time and offer salvation through faith to the whole world (Gentiles grafted in!). This was a stern act done in judgment on those Jews who “stumbled over” Jesus Christ (9:32-33). He has been kind to the Gentiles, but Gentile believers must continue in his kindness, which means they must have steadfast perseverance in faith (corporately), this faith in Christ. If Gentile believers do not continue in their perseverance, they too can be cut off just as the natural branches (Jews) were cut off due to their unbelief. The picture is of the Gentiles as a group, like the unbelieving Jews, turning away from God. God’s sternness was demonstrated in that faith was NOT automatic for the chosen people (the Jews were chosen, yet that certainly did not mean salvation for all Jews as Paul makes clear). So the Gentiles, too, with unbelief can be cut off. Again, it is the corporate group, not the individual sheep being spoken of here.

You realize, I hope, that IF you had been right about this verse, it would have provided a contradiction or error in the Scriptures. Jesus sheep NEVER perish – Jesus sheep CAN perish. That won’t happen to God’s Word. God doesn’t lie and he is not the author of confusion (Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 14:33; Heb 6:18). The world wide web is full of web sites that “prove” their points with verses ripped from their context and improperly applied.

Let’s avoid that error.

In Christ, OldProf

. Furthermore, I will use contextual biblical arguments. CONTEXT is KEY!

You context St.Paul’s words to mean absolutely nothing.
“Be not high minded lest you be cut off…” in context these words are empty.
What was that Jesus said about by your traditions you render the word of God void.

 

[Carrie1]

Thanks for your post.http://www.cleaningcassette.com

 

[OldProf]

You context St.Paul’s words to mean absolutely nothing.
“Be not high minded lest you be cut off…” in context these words are empty.
What was that Jesus said about by your traditions you render the word of God void.

I don’t understand. Please clarify.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Tetiaroa]

I hope this is the right place to put this thread

I have a question about the Catholic teachings about assurance of salvation and how to defend it. My mother, who is a Protestant minister, just recently finished a course in Protestant evangelization and decided that I would be a good person to start with My mother has no problem now with me becoming a Baptized Catholic soon, but she wanted to make sure that I knew the ‘full gospel’. Although I know that she had good intentions, many of the things that she tried to convince me of were extremely contrary to Catholic teaching, such as sola fide and assurance of salvation. She repeatedly asked me the question ‘If you were to die today, would you know for sure you would go to Heaven?’ I told her that I hope to go to Heaven, but that this decision was up to God and not me. She then told me that ‘We need to rely on God’s promises because He told us that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.’ I tried to explain to her in a kind way that we are not saved by faith alone and explained to her my position on assurance of salvation, but she continued to ask me over again. Finally, she asked me again. It was 11:30 PM, I was tired, somewhat frustrated, and I wanted to go to bed, and so I just smiled and said ‘Most certainly !’ and then she let me off.

So my questions are:

1. Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?
2. How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?

Thanks and God bless!

The best way to answer the question of assurance of salvation is this:
As a Catholic I am sure I am saved because I believe in Jesus and did exactly what he asked in John 6:54 “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day”
Now you may ask this question back to her, "Do you ever eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ? If she says no, then she doesn’t believe in Jesus. Her faith in Jesus is fake.

 

[fbl9]

I don’t understand. Please clarify.

Regards, OldProf

in your explaination you state, that St.Paul is speaking to the entire world of gentiles and they can only be cut off if they (gentiles) as a whole reject the Good news.Then claim God will not let that happen.That’s getting pretty bad if some one has to explain your own post to you.

 

[OldProf]

in your explaination you state, that St.Paul is speaking to the entire world of gentiles and they can only be cut off if they (gentiles) as a whole reject the Good news.Then claim God will not let that happen.That’s getting pretty bad if some one has to explain your own post to you.

I have found it to be very important to define things well when engaging in theological discussions. Have you ever done an organized study of Romans?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

The best way to answer the question of assurance of salvation is this:
As a Catholic I am sure I am saved because I believe in Jesus and did exactly what he asked in John 6:54 “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day”
Now you may ask this question back to her, "Do you ever eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ? If she says no, then she doesn’t believe in Jesus. Her faith in Jesus is fake.

Tetiaroa, this sounds like an opinion. Is this the official Roman Catholic position?

Faith: you say “I believe in Jesus” which is certainly biblical, as many verses will attest.

But you tie the specific works of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus to a true faith.

Have you thought that through? First of all, the context of John 6:54 is clearly metaphorical. Read before and after the verse to develop the context. John 6:40, which also relates to eternal life, is a parallel to 6:54. The last supper and crucifixion are future to John 6.

Consider those well before Christ, those who had faith, those like Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - their faith described clearly in Hebrews 11. What are you going to do with them?

Paul says, “What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (see Romans 4:1-5). And Paul says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Eph 2:8-9)

Regarding the assurance of salvation, I’ve mentioned the Apostle John, but perhaps you haven’t seen the posts on this thread. 1 John gives us a powerful statement. After he gives over 4 chapters of good information, he sums it up with 1 John 5:13 where he says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” If he is writing about assurance, and we know he is, why doesn’t he mention the importance of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? A very serious ommision, don’t you think?

It’s more likely that John did not omit anything. Protestants like myself, believe in Jesus and hold communion in remembrace of Jesus Christ. I believe the official Roman Catholic position is that we are “separated brethren” without a completed faith, but still of the Christian faith.

Your statement about Oumashta’s Mother’s “faith in Jesus is fake” is something you cannot possibly know, unless you claim to be God and know a persons heart. (But nobody would claim that!)

Regards, OldProf

 

[adrift]

Have you thought that through? First of all, the context of John 6:54 is clearly metaphorical. Read before and after the verse to develop the context. John 6:40, which also relates to eternal life, is a parallel to 6:54. The last supper and crucifixion are future to John 6.

If it was as you say clearly just metaphorcial than “Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” would not have happened. Jesus clearly stated that He was giving His Flesh and Blood for us to eat. Those who heard Him understood it this way. Jesus did not correct their understanding because they understood Him, there was nothing for Jesus to correct. In deed, Jesus is refering to the future event of the Last Supper. But it was too hard a saying, just as it is today that what Jesus said and meant is rejected.

 

[jcrichton]

mackbrislawn, just to make sure you understand. You are trying to defend the position that a sheep in Jesus’ flock can be lost and go to hell.

If so, then

1. Jesus lied when He said His sheep will never perish (John 10:28).
2. Jesus cannot do the will of the Father to raise up all the sheep on the last day (John 6:39).
3. John is wrong that Christians will continue in the faith (1 John 2:19).
4. Jesus loses sheep proving He is not a good shepherd (Luke 15:4-6, John 10:11).
5. Paul is wrong in that a good work begun by God will actually fail (Php 1:6).
6. Hebrews 12:2 is wrong - it is man who is the “finisher” of his faith.

Do you really want to defend that? I think you really need to reconsider the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). The youngest son was one of the elect who went astray. The older son, like the self righteous Pharisee, was not. Dr. John MacArthur, in his book “The Tale of Two Sons,” provides a full analysis and contextual argument. In a book review, Tim Challies says,

“In the book’s opening chapter MacArthur makes clear the central and culminating lesson of the parable: “Jesus is pointing out the stark contrast between God’s own delight in the redemption of sinners and the Pharisees’ inflexible hostility toward those same sinners.” Though the younger son is important to the story, his redemption is not the main point. Rather, this parable is to serve as “a mirror for every human heart and conscience” that will reflect either God’s love for fallen sinners or a human hardness and arrogance that would deny that such hardened sinners could ever know His love.”

Regarding the exhortations to falling away, remember CONTEXT IS KEY! See my response to jchrichton below.
Regarding warnings about false teachers, that still applies today.
If you have specific questions on John 15 (pretty common with those who think the sheep can be lost), what are they?
The sheep, the elect, can have joy and peace (John 15:11, Rom 15:13, Gal 5:22) and assurance (1 John 5:13).

Sincerely, OldProf

…so you contend that the Jews were never the “elect” people of Yahweh God… hence it follows that they are not Jesus’ sheep?

OldProf, you still continue to argue from the perspective that God is Omnipotent and that Jesus is the Resurrection and Life… that argument is mute!

The issue does not lie with God’s Powers or Mercy or Salvation!

The issue lies with man!

Man chooses to follow (be Christ’s sheep) or reject God (remove him/herself from the fold); it is man’s choice to seek and follow God… but it is also man’s choice to renounce God:

18 As surely as God is trustworthy… 19 The Son of God, Jesus Christ… was never Yes-and-No; his nature is all Yes. 20 For in him is found the Yes to all God’s promises and therefore it is ‘through him’ that we answer ‘Amen’ to give praise to God. 21 It is God who gives us, with you, a sure place in Christ 22 and has both anointed us and marked us with his seal, giving us as pledge the Spirit in our hearts. (1 Corinthians 1:18-22)

1 Brothers… watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way. 2 Carry each other’s burdens; that is how to keep the law of Christ. …7 Don’t delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap. 8 If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life. 9 And let us never slacken in doing good; for if we do not give up, we shall have our harvest in due time… (Galatians 6:1-10)

1 …trying to awaken in you by my reminders an unclouded understanding… 3 First of all, do not forget that in the final days there will come sarcastic scoffers whose life is ruled by their passions. 4 ‘What has happened to the promise of his coming?’ they will say… 7 It is the same Word which is reserving the present heavens and earth for fire, keeping them till the Day of Judgement and of the destruction of sinners… 9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance… 11 Since everything is coming to an end like this, what holy and saintly lives you should be living 12 while you wait for the Day of God to come, and try to hasten its coming…14 So then, my dear friends, while you are waiting, do your best to live blameless and unsullied lives so that he will find you at peace. 15 Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved… and these are the ones that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture–to their own destruction. 17 Since you have been forewarned about this, my dear friends, be careful that you do not come to the point of losing the firm ground that you are standing on, carried away by the errors of unprincipled people. 18 Instead, continue to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ… (2 St. Peter 3:1-18)

God’s Promise: Eternal.
Man’s security: Christ–not a formula divined from Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Tricks?..

…my expression is due to your exegesis… where you contend that one thing is just as the other: God’s Power and Omnipotence means only those who are “elect” will be saved no matter what and those “predestined” for damnation will not (your sheep theology).

I’ll clarify my position. I will continue to “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3 …) The Bible says to do it, and I will. Furthermore, I will use contextual biblical arguments. CONTEXT is KEY! The mistake made by so many of the respondents so far is their inability to apply the Scriptures in context with what else is written, and the Scriptures allow Christian’s to be “thoroughly equipped” (2 Tim 3:16-17) for this very task.

…which is what every Believer should do… but not to the point of ignoring all Scriptures that does not align with personal/group theology: Salvation is never guaranteed by Scriptures!

Context is key! This is John 1. Don’t forget John 1:12-13 verses which are vital to the context. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I have never forgotten these very special verses… they are the essence of the “election” theology (even though most who prescribe to it do not follow it: it is those who Believe that are the elect… not some whimsical hit or miss election by God!

Further, as you contend, we must view even these with other passages where Jesus Command that those who Beleive must Obey His Commandments–to do otherwise means that we cannot and are not His disciples! The second a “sheep” lapses into oblivion he/she has lost salvation… not because God cannot Save us but because we choose not to be Saved!

Note, born of God! Man’s will? NO! God chooses the sheep, the elect, the born again ones. Those sheep, the believers, NEVER perish. Jesus said they NEVER perish. Context? John 9:1 thru 10:30. PLEASE READ IT!

As I stated on this thread way back in post #42 on page 3:

…this is what I mean by your “tricks!”

It is not God’s Will for any man to be damned… but this passage does not mean that all are guaranteed Salvation if they claim they “Believe” in Jesus or His Name (St. John 3:15-21) Even those who search Christ out have and will find things that they will reject and thus not remain in the Way, the Life, the Resurrection!

This particular passage speaks of those who are born of Faith (Romans 9:1 through 11:32) as opposed to those who believe that they are saved because of blood inheritance–in your case, “because you are of the sheep!” Salvation belongs to those who are in Christ and of Christ!

"Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.

Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.

The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)"

IF a sheep of Jesus perishes, then Jesus is a liar. But, of course, that is not the case.

…again, you are confusing the fact with the act: in Christ there’s Life outside of Christ there’s death; all who choose Christ choose Life… but even those who one day join Christ can on another day choose death… just look at how many “Christian” bodies are subscribing to a “homosexual good” theology… and they claim deliverance by Christ through His Word!

I guess from John 5:39? (Can you please just include the Scripture reference?) That’s the problem - THEY CHOSE, not God. And they didn’t remain, which proves they were not a sheep of Jesus in the first place. And Jesus, speaking to the judgmental and unbelieving Jews here, is rebuking those who ARE NOT HIS SHEEP yet they act like they know the Scriptures. Not only do they not know the Scriptures, they don’t know Jesus either.

So Israel is not Chirst’s sheep? The fact is that many who do Believe at one time end up rejecting God at another time. Just check Jesus’ Word to Kephas/Cephas (St. Luke 22:31-32).

We may agree here. A person without Jesus Christ as Savior, is simply a sinner and unbeliever on the wide road to hell. They are in desperate need of a Savior! I, for one, will warn them. And I will give them the Gospel of Peace (Eph 6:14-16. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.).

Angel, do you know what the Gospel of Peace is?

Sincerely, OldProf

I do concur that there are moments where we do come to an agreement… the difference may be in how we personalize our understanding and Belief system… ie: “the Gospel of Peace” is much similar to “were you there when they Crucified my Lord?” …such statements are quite subjective and much too ambiguous unless both parties are speaking from the same reference.

ie: Jesus stated… “…you think I came to bring peace?..” (Mt. 10:34; Lk. 12:49, 51; 19:41-44)–it is the Gospel of Peace, God’s Peace!

Maran atha!

Angel