Assurance of Salvation

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I’m at work, but a quick comment about Judas.

John 6:70, John 17:12, and Acts 1:20 are some verses germane to the Judas discussion (and many more are also available). Jesus, specifically speaking about Judas in Mark 14:21 (ESV), said in part, “but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (Also to continue the context, Mark 14:43-45 to follow - very important verses to ponder when thinking about the future of Judas.) Jesus does not lie, and He indicates in Matthew 7 (verses 13-14 and 21-23) that the majority of people IN GENERAL will NOT go to heaven. Given that, do you REALLY think Judas will be there?

Based on the testimony of Jesus Christ, we can logically conclude, sadly, that Judas will spend eternity in hell. When I first became a Christian, an Air Force Chaplain told me that when a Christian talks about hell, they should have a tear in their eye. I have to agree. Hell is not a joking matter and should energize the Christian to share the gospel. We should all, “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3), to point sinners to the true Savior, Jesus Christ.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Regards, OldProf
I am afraid if I answer this, it will sidetrack from the answer I was giving. Suffice it to say, that the scriptures your quote can be interpreted another way than what you do. Only God can judge and you might be right in the way He judged Judas.
You stated the following.
I have a strong rebuttal to this, but I’m wondering. Is it Roman Catholic doctrine that Judas was a believer, a sheep of Jesus (John 10), a sheep with eternal life, a sheep that will never at this time or at any future time perish (John 10:28 word study on “never”), and then Judas betrays Jesus, dies, and goes to hell (he perishes)?
Regards, OldProf
70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
A simple answer is Jesus was a believer who lost his faith. Jesus choose him as one of the twelve but he fell away from Jesus. Why? MHO is through greed and not believing that he could be forgiven.
 
A simple answer is -]Jesus /-] Judas was a believer who lost his faith. Jesus choose him as one of the twelve but he fell away from Jesus. Why? MHO is through greed and not believing that he could be forgiven.
:eek: Ouch Let me correct this
 
:eek: Ouch Let me correct this
:), I thought that was what you meant!

Your view is certainly a popular one, but will, I think, result in a multitude corrections to the Bible for consistency. A few examples of many more I could give:

To the Philippian Jailer, who asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31)

Let’s change that response to your theology: "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household, as long as you all continue to believe in Him.”

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Let’s change that to your theology: He who believes in the Son has the possibility of everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Let’s change that to your theology: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has the possibility of everlasting life, and may not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life and will remain there as long as he continues to believe in Him.”

However, if, as Jesus said in no uncertain terms, that His sheep “shall never perish” (John 10:28), I don’t have to make those corrections to conform with a biblical and systematic theology of free-will, sin, and salvation.

Regards, OldProf
 
:), I thought that was what you meant!

Your view is certainly a popular one, but will, I think, result in a multitude corrections to the Bible for consistency. A few examples of many more I could give:

To the Philippian Jailer, who asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31)

Let’s change that response to your theology: "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household, as long as you all continue to believe in Him.”
Really? This is your answer Really:rolleyes:
To the Philippian Jailer, who asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31)

Lets change that response to your theology
"So they said, "believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save, you and your house hold, and no matter what you do you can kill, lie, steal commit adultery and you will not loose your salvation.

The scripture doesn’t say that.
I entrust this charge to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophetic words once spoken about you. Through them may you fight a good fight
by having faith and a good conscience. Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith,
St. Paul is indicating to Timothy that there are some who have lost their faith.

St. Paul also said
I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith
So what is it to Believe? It is to have faith. It is a gift from God that is entirely free. We can lose this gift. No where in the Scriptures you quoted does it say that you can’t?
1 Timothy 1 18-19
That next question would be what is Faith?QUOTE]FAITH
The acceptance of the word of another, trusting that one knows what the other is saying and is honest in telling the truth. The basic motive of all faith is the authority (or right to be believed) of someone who is speaking. This authority is an adequate knowledge of what he or she is talking about, and integrity in not wanting to deceive. It is called divine faith when the one believed is God, and human faith when the persons believed are human beings. (Etym. Latin fides, belief; habit of faith; object of faith.)

So trusting in what Jesus has said.
What did Jesus say was necessary to be saved
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
Believing isn’t just lip service. It is the acceptiance of Jesus and His Church.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Believing Jesus is believing what He taught.
 
Really? This is your answer Really:rolleyes:
To the Philippian Jailer, who asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31)

Lets change that response to your theology
"So they said, "believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save, you and your house hold, and no matter what you do you can kill, lie, steal commit adultery and you will not loose your salvation.

The scripture doesn’t say that. Snip …
No, your argument is silly.

What I said about your theology is completely consistent with RC theology - that a person can be saved (believer = Christian = sheep in Jesus’ flock = new creation) and then commit a mortal sin and still go to hell. In my theology, a Christian, “born of God” (John 1:13), “born again” (John 3:3) will have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16) coupled with their own sinful flesh while still in the world. This Christian has eternal life, not just “the possibility of eternal life,” they are a new creation with a new heart (Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17), and they will still struggle with sin, but they will suffer when they sin and will not want to sin.

In my theology, you can tell that they are a Christian because they will actually listen and follow when Paul says, “4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Phil 4.4-9 ESV)

Or when Paul says,
“12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. 14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.” (1 Thess 5:12-24 ESV)

In my theology, a Christian will desire to know God and know His Word, like the noble Bereans (Acts 17:11). I won’t fault you if you if you accurately describe my theology, but the favorite argument that eternal security gives someone the license to sin won’t cut it. My theology recognizes that while Christians are not sinless, as they grow in Christ, they will sin less.

Regards, OldProf
 
In my theology, a Christian will desire to know God and know His Word, like the noble Bereans (Acts 17:11). I won’t fault you if you if you accurately describe my theology, but the favorite argument that eternal security gives someone the license to sin won’t cut it.

My theology recognizes that while Christians are not sinless, as they grow in Christ, they will sin less.

Regards, OldProf
Would be interesting to know exactly what those Bereans considered scripture.

Nor does being a Catholic. we can agree.
We differ on the result of sin. We agree sin bringth death?

Yes Catholics also agree as one grows with Christ the grip of sin loosens.
 
No, your argument is silly.
That is the way I felt about yours because frankly it can be turned on you which is what I did. So if my argument is “silly” yours is too.
What I said about your theology is completely consistent with RC theology - that a person can be saved (believer = Christian = sheep in Jesus’ flock = new creation) and then commit a mortal sin and still go to hell. In my theology, a Christian, “born of God” (John 1:13), “born again” (John 3:3) will have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16) coupled with their own sinful flesh while still in the world. This Christian has eternal life, not just “the possibility of eternal life,” they are a new creation with a new heart (Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17), and they will still struggle with sin, but they will suffer when they sin and will not want to sin.
But nowhere is there scripture that says what you want it to say. You are interpreting it to bend that way.

In fact the scripture I presented that counters this you ignored.

Jesus said
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Would be interesting to know exactly what those Bereans considered scripture.
Since the New Testament was still in the stage of being written and had not yet been declared inspired, they could only be referring to the Old Testament.
 
Since the New Testament was still in the stage of being written and had not yet been declared inspired, they could only be referring to the Old Testament.
And just what books were in their OT?
 
Tetiaroa, this sounds like an opinion. Is this the official Roman Catholic position?

Have you thought that through? First of all, the context of John 6:54 is clearly metaphorical. …The last supper and crucifixion are future to John 6.
It is your opnion that John 6:54 is metaphorical. In a sense, the last supper and crucifixion is a realization of the sacrifice of the lamb in the Old Testament where the Hebrews took part in the sacrificial meal and ate it. The Hebrews ate the flesh of the lamb but Catholics ate the sacrificed flesh of Jesus.
." If he is writing about assurance, and we know he is, why doesn’t he mention the importance of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? A very serious ommision, don’t you think?
The importance of eating is shown by his own words “Truly, truly…” or “Verily, verily”
It’s more likely that John did not omit anything. Protestants like myself, believe in Jesus and hold communion in remembrace of Jesus Christ. I believe the official Roman Catholic position is that we are “separated brethren” without a completed faith, but still of the Christian faith.

Your statement about Oumashta’s Mother’s “faith in Jesus is fake” is something you cannot possibly know, unless you claim to be God and know a persons heart. (But nobody would claim that!)

Regards, OldProf
True, I don’t claim to be God. But FAKE FAITH is really the result of not seeing the Truth – but of acting as if you do. I agree that believing in Jesus but not in some of his words is an incomplete faith. How can an incomplete faith provides assurance of salvation? How can one believe that Jesus is God when cannot believe that he can change bread into his own flesh?
 
:), I thought that was what you meant!

Your view is certainly a popular one, but will, I think, result in a multitude corrections to the Bible for consistency. A few examples of many more I could give:

To the Philippian Jailer, who asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31)

Let’s change that response to your theology: "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household, as long as you all continue to believe in Him.”

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Let’s change that to your theology: He who believes in the Son has the possibility of everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Let’s change that to your theology: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has the possibility of everlasting life, and may not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life and will remain there as long as he continues to believe in Him.”

However, if, as Jesus said in no uncertain terms, that His sheep “shall never perish” (John 10:28), I don’t have to make those corrections to conform with a biblical and systematic theology of free-will, sin, and salvation.

Regards, OldProf
Following your logic, this means that Judas is now skipping in heavenly meadows despite his suicide and betrayal of Jesus, correct? I eagerly await your answer ~~ 😃
 
I believe your point is at this point the canon had not been set. It is a valid point. I would like to hear the answer from OldProf.
adrift and fbl9, it is reasonable to believe that the emphasis of Paul’s preaching in the synagogues (see Acts chapters 9 and 13 thru 17) was that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah, probably in a manner similar to what Jesus did on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (NKJV)

Regarding the OT Scriptures, I expect we all know about the disagreements between the RC canon and Protestant canon. I can easily find 100 articles on the web arguing for or against the “Apocrypha” (Jerome’s term, “Prologus galeatus” as quoted in, “The Canon of Scripture” by F.F. Bruce, 1988, p. 90). This discussion is all very interesting, however, as a Scriptural basis, I would argue as follows.

If you were to look at the table of contents of a Hebrew Old Testament, you would notice two differences from our English Old Testament. First, it has only twenty-two books, not thirty-nine. But it is most important to realize that the content is identical; it is just that the Hebrew Bible combines certain books. (For example, books such as 1 and 2 Samuel are combined into one; other smaller books are attached to larger ones.) A second difference is that the order of the books is rearranged. Interestingly, the last book of the Hebrew Bible is not Malachi but Chronicles.

Now let me share an incidental proof that Christ’s Bible was the same in content as the Hebrew Old Testament we have today. The first murder in the Old Testament was, of course, when Cain killed Abel; the last murder, according to the Hebrew order of books, was when the prophet Zechariah was stoned to death in the temple (2 Chronicles 24:20–21). Only now are we prepared to understand the words of Jesus:

Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Matthew 23:34-35 NKJV)

The importance is this. Given the order of the Hebrew Old Testament, Christ gives a sweeping panorama of its entire history. These two murders are “bookends” for the whole of the Hebrew canon. In New Testament terms we would say, “From Genesis to Revelation.” This is a subtle proof that Christ’s Bible was that of the Jewish Hebrew canon (though arranged differently), from our own Old Testament.

Finally, note also that Philo, Alexandrian Jewish philosopher and writer at about the time of Jesus’ ministry, never quoted from the Apocrypha as inspired, but quoted the standard OT books prolifically. Josephus (30-100 a.d.), Jewish historian, explicitly excludes the Apocrypha and defined the OT Scriptures as we know it (“Against Apion”).

So, to sum it up, I think the Bereans confirmed Paul’s teachings with the standard Genesis to Malachi Scriptures, without any need to refer to the Apocrypha. We have no good reason to believe the Jews held any Apocryphal writings as being from God. They didn’t accept them then, and they don’t accept them today.

Today, Jews-For-Jesus use Genesis to Malachi to show Jewish believers that Jesus Christ is truly the Jewish Messiah. Amen to that truth.

Regards, OldProf
 
Ah, alright. This thread has become remarkably convoluted.

As far as I can remember, this was a debate about the conditions for reaching heaven, correct? Alright, please allow me to list the points of disagreement so that we can inspect each of them individually - and also to bring our focus back onto the topic.
  • Is faith enough to grant entry to heaven?
    — We may have to start by defining “faith”. What does it mean to “believe in” Christ? How about the scriptures that indicate what “faith” means?
  • Are good actions enough?
    — This should be fairly self-explanatory. If necessary, I suppose we could briefly discuss what constitutes a high enough level of morally good actions.
  • Is it possible to go to heaven after committing a mortal sin?
    — I hope we all agree, at least, on what constitutes a “mortal sin”. If it seems otherwise, then this will need clarifying as well.
…And now I will sit back and watch this attempt at creating some form of structure be ignored entirely.
 
Ah, alright. This thread has become remarkably convoluted.

As far as I can remember, this was a debate about the conditions for reaching heaven, correct? Alright, please allow me to list the points of disagreement so that we can inspect each of them individually - and also to bring our focus back onto the topic.
  • Is faith enough to grant entry to heaven?
    — We may have to start by defining “faith”. What does it mean to “believe in” Christ? How about the scriptures that indicate what “faith” means?
  • Are good actions enough?
    — This should be fairly self-explanatory. If necessary, I suppose we could briefly discuss what constitutes a high enough level of morally good actions.
  • Is it possible to go to heaven after committing a mortal sin?
    — I hope we all agree, at least, on what constitutes a “mortal sin”. If it seems otherwise, then this will need clarifying as well.
…And now I will sit back and watch this attempt at creating some form of structure be ignored entirely.
Originally, this was a thread started by me to ask if it was a sin to lie to my mother about my religious convictions. Actually, it was more silence than a lie, but that question has already been answered, and then the thread deviated enormously from my original intention and everyone began to have a debate about 30 pages long about the necessary conditions for attaining Heaven. So… after lurking for about 11 pages, I’m now joining in. I’m the OP, so according to the unwritten forum rules i.e. forum tradition, you all can’t ignore me.

Amamori, on behalf of the Catholics here, I can define “faith” as not mere belief in something’s existence, but an act of carrying out the beliefs one holds i.e. believing that Jesus existed and died on a cross 2,000 years ago is something that is accepted even among non-Christians, but that does not mean all of them will attain Heaven. The Bible defines 3 virtues in I Corinthians 13:13 “And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.” which implies that something greater than faith exists, and that is charity- the act of loving God and neighbor through acts of self sacrifice out of a good heart and love for God. When Jesus says that those who believe in Him will be saved, He was also implying that one follows Him. Anyone who has kids or babysits on Tuesdays like me will understand that when one tell the toddler “We’ll have ice cream later” this does not mean that ice cream will be given unconditionally, but rather it implies that I expect the child to cooperate with me in order for the ice cream to be obtained. If the toddler exhibits terribly naughty behavior, I will withhold the gift of ice cream due to the toddler’s naughtiness. In the same way, God tells us “You will have eternal life” we logically understand that this implies cooperation with God’s grace to save us, and not just the mere act of closing your eyes and saying “I believe you exist!” :heaven:

The Scriptures say: *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. * Matthew 7:13
Meaning that only a few enter the gates of Heaven. This must mean that Heaven is difficult to obtain and involves more than accepting the fact that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but rather it means that after we accept Him, we should do what He says, for “If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15

Saint Anselm once said: “If thou wouldst be certain of being in the number of the elect, strive to be one of the few, not of the many. And if thou wouldst be quite sure of thy salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few… Do not follow the great majority of mankind, but follow those who enter upon the narrow way, who renounce the world, who give themselves to prayer, and who never relax their efforts by day or by night, that they may attain everlasting blessedness.”

Nuff said :signofcross:

I eagerly await the replies of you all.
God bless
 
Ah, alright. This thread has become remarkably convoluted.
As far as I can remember, this was a debate about the conditions for reaching heaven, correct?
No you are not correct.
  1. Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?
  1. How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?
Thanks and God bless!
Not about how to reach heaven but as the title says Assurance of Salvation.
Alright, please allow me to list the points of disagreement so that we can inspect each of them individually - and also to bring our focus back onto the topic.
The thread is on topic.
Is faith enough to grant entry to heaven?
— We may have to start by defining “faith”. What does it mean to “believe in” Christ? How about the scriptures that indicate what “faith” means?
  • Are good actions enough?
    — This should be fairly self-explanatory. If necessary, I suppose we could briefly discuss what constitutes a high enough level of morally good actions.
  • Is it possible to go to heaven after committing a mortal sin?
    — I hope we all agree, at least, on what constitutes a “mortal sin”. If it seems otherwise, then this will need clarifying as well.
This has been answered in the thread already. If you have something new to add, than please do so.
…And now I will sit back and watch this attempt at creating some form of structure be ignored entirely.
:bowdown:
 
No you are not correct.

Not about how to reach heaven but as the title says Assurance of Salvation.

The thread is on topic.
This has been answered in the thread already. If you have something new to add, than please do so.

:bowdown:
Wait, weren’t you guys just discussing faith and works, what is needed for Heaven, and then a random topic change to what books should be in the Bible?
 
Not about how to reach heaven but as the title says Assurance of Salvation.

The thread is on topic.​

This has been answered in the thread already. If you have something new to add, than please do so.
I was under the impression that the discussion had broadened considerably since the first post. Recently, however, it had begun to diverge into details that were not altogether very helpful.

…Of course, I could be wrong.

Still, “answered”? Where, and how?
I doubt that these are the sorts of questions that can be conclusively answered in the first place. “Discussed”, I will accept, although I don’t recall it being all that comprehensive.
 
The topic of assurance of salvation and what is needed to attain it are intimately intertwined.
 
Wait, weren’t you guys just discussing faith and works, what is needed for Heaven, and then a random topic change to what books should be in the Bible?
Ah, it doesn’t matter. Threads are, fundamentally, conversations. The topics in a conversation follow a random and intuitive process, because the human mind links things together so that they move further and further away from the original.

Doesn’t it make things more interesting?

(Yes, I’m giving up on keeping things on topic.)
 
Ah, it doesn’t matter. Threads are, fundamentally, conversations. The topics in a conversation follow a random and intuitive process, because the human mind links things together so that they move further and further away from the original.

Doesn’t it make things more interesting?

(Yes, I’m giving up on keeping things on topic.)
Hmmm… True, I guess. Interesting, maybe. I’m just lurking and waiting for some other people to reply, yet I still have a desire to keep this thread slightly off the original topic and discuss salvation.
 
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