R
RNRobert
Guest
Yes, a very good letter. I’m going to save it for future reference.
- Status
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
the problem with Karl keating’s e letter this week is that he mis-quotes the Romans 8 passage. and when debating with an evangelical, they will point out the error and it deflates the argument.
The NAB for Romans 8:24 says:
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
Keating quotes it as saying “we are saved”.
The change in the tense becomes problematic.
It doesn’t change Keating’s argument from being correct. The Catholic view is that we were saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved. Verse 24 doesn’t affirm eternal security. It only speaks of the salvation that came to us through the rebirth of baptism.
However, in debating with evangelicals, they will not recongize the distinction.
The NAB for Romans 8:24 says:
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
Keating quotes it as saying “we are saved”.
The change in the tense becomes problematic.
It doesn’t change Keating’s argument from being correct. The Catholic view is that we were saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved. Verse 24 doesn’t affirm eternal security. It only speaks of the salvation that came to us through the rebirth of baptism.
However, in debating with evangelicals, they will not recongize the distinction.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Actually, neither Martin Luther nor John Calvin taught OSAS. John Calvin believed that salvation could be lost by losing one’s faith. Johannes Agricola twisted Martin Luther’s theology into an OSAS position, but Luther fought against Agricola’s misinterpretations.
Antinomian. [Greek, *anti-nomos, exempt from the law.]
One who believes that Christians are not bound to observe the “law of God,” but “may continue in sin that grace may abound.” The term was first applied to John Agricola by Martin Luther.
Antinomianism comes from the Greek anti (against) and nomos (law). It is defined as, “The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace.”
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000
Antinomianism/The Denial of Lordship Salvation, or “Easy Believism”
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Johannes Agricola
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Johannes Agricola (originally Schneider, then Schnitter) (1494-1566) German Protestant reformer, born on the 20th of April 1494, at Eisleben, whence he is sometimes called Magister Islebius.
He studied at Wittenberg, where he soon gained the friendship of Martin Luther. In 1519 he accompanied Luther to the great assembly of German divines at Leipzig, and acted as recording secretary. After teaching for some time in Wittenberg, he went to Frankfurt in 1525 to establish the Protestant reformed mode of worship. He had resided there only a month when he was called to Eisleben, where he remained till 1526 as teacher in the school of St Andrew, and preacher in the Nicolai church.
In 1536 he was recalled to teach in Wittenberg, and was welcomed by Luther. Almost immediately, however, a controversy, which had been begun ten years before and been temporarily silenced, broke out more violently than ever. Agricola was the first to teach the views which Luther was the first to stigmatize by the name Antinomian, maintaining that while non-Christians were still held to the Mosaic law, Christians were entirely free from it, being under the gospel alone.
In consequence of the bitter controversy with Luther that resulted, Agricola in 1540 left Wittenberg secretly for Berlin, where he published a letter addressed to the Elector of Saxony, which was generally interpreted as a recantation of his obnoxious views. Luther, however, seems not to have so accepted it, and Agricola remained at Berlin.
The elector Joachim II of Brandenburg, having taken him into his favour, appointed him court preacher and general superintendent. He held both offices until his death in 1566, and his career in Brandenburg was one of great activity and influence. Along with Julius von Pflug, bishop of Naumburg-Zeitz, and Michael Helding, titular bishop of Sidon, he prepared the Augsburg Interim of 1548. He endeavoured in vain to appease the Adiaphoristic controversy.
He died during an epidemic of plague on the 22nd of September 1566.
Agricola wrote a number of theological works which are now of little interest. He was the first to make a collection of German proverbs which he illustrated with a commentary. The most complete edition, which contains seven hundred and fifty proverbs, is that published at Wittenberg in 1592.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Johannes Agricola (originally Schneider, then Schnitter) (1494-1566) German Protestant reformer, born on the 20th of April 1494, at Eisleben, whence he is sometimes called Magister Islebius.
He studied at Wittenberg, where he soon gained the friendship of Martin Luther. In 1519 he accompanied Luther to the great assembly of German divines at Leipzig, and acted as recording secretary. After teaching for some time in Wittenberg, he went to Frankfurt in 1525 to establish the Protestant reformed mode of worship. He had resided there only a month when he was called to Eisleben, where he remained till 1526 as teacher in the school of St Andrew, and preacher in the Nicolai church.
In 1536 he was recalled to teach in Wittenberg, and was welcomed by Luther. Almost immediately, however, a controversy, which had been begun ten years before and been temporarily silenced, broke out more violently than ever. Agricola was the first to teach the views which Luther was the first to stigmatize by the name Antinomian, maintaining that while non-Christians were still held to the Mosaic law, Christians were entirely free from it, being under the gospel alone.
In consequence of the bitter controversy with Luther that resulted, Agricola in 1540 left Wittenberg secretly for Berlin, where he published a letter addressed to the Elector of Saxony, which was generally interpreted as a recantation of his obnoxious views. Luther, however, seems not to have so accepted it, and Agricola remained at Berlin.
The elector Joachim II of Brandenburg, having taken him into his favour, appointed him court preacher and general superintendent. He held both offices until his death in 1566, and his career in Brandenburg was one of great activity and influence. Along with Julius von Pflug, bishop of Naumburg-Zeitz, and Michael Helding, titular bishop of Sidon, he prepared the Augsburg Interim of 1548. He endeavoured in vain to appease the Adiaphoristic controversy.
He died during an epidemic of plague on the 22nd of September 1566.
Agricola wrote a number of theological works which are now of little interest. He was the first to make a collection of German proverbs which he illustrated with a commentary. The most complete edition, which contains seven hundred and fifty proverbs, is that published at Wittenberg in 1592.
K
Katholikos
Guest
Matt 16_18 wrote:
Let Your Sins Be Strong:
A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon
Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg
(Segment)
Translated by
Erika Bullmann Flores
from: Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften
Dr, Johannes Georg Walch, Ed.
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.),
Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521
reformed.org/calvinism/
The Five Points of Calvinism are easily remembered by the acrostic TULIP
P
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God’s hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God’s stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the “last day” (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ’s promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
Let Your Sins Be Strong:
A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon
Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg
(Segment)
Translated by
Erika Bullmann Flores
from: Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften
Dr, Johannes Georg Walch, Ed.
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.),
Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
- If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?
On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521
reformed.org/calvinism/
The Five Points of Calvinism are easily remembered by the acrostic TULIP
P
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God’s hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God’s stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the “last day” (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ’s promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.
S
sazzle08
Guest
Hi there! Your timing is perfect on this question for me…my best friend is is a very devout Baptist and just today we were discussing Assurance of Salvation. I’m not sure what is in the article but these verses might help:
Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-29, 1Cor.4:4, Luke 8:13, and Phil. 2:12
God bless!
Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-29, 1Cor.4:4, Luke 8:13, and Phil. 2:12
God bless!
P
pendoko
Guest
I think that the Catholic Church and all churches around the world which did not teach the assurance of salvation ARE ALL mistaken and should not be trusted. Why?
What is the point of believing and following an Almighty God IF GOD ALONE can’t secure His believer into their salvation? What is the point of believing Him, God & Jesus, if He can’t even secure the MOST important part of His believer- the eternal security of salvation of that believer? What is the point of believing God if citizenship in Heaven is not yet secured by God to man?
Also, what is the point of going, listening, joining and attending those CHURCHES that they never teaches assurance of salvation if THEY THEMSEVES are not secured of their furure destiny? How could they lead those lost to security if they themselves are not secured? What is the point of following those leaders, members, teachers, and all staffs inside those Churches if those people themselves are still NOT SURE if they will be entering Heaven or be thrown to Hell after they die?
Is God foolish enough to secure the fate and destiny of His children, while God called them “children” and yet they will be thrown to Hell? John 1:12
What is the point of working to a company if you are not yet secured or registered? You will never get a salary! What is the point of working for that company if you really need money badly?
Why Satan and demons can’t live to Heaven?
Once a person is saved, is eternally saved since it is God who made that salvation, not by man’s works but God’s mercy. The only one condition is: John 1:12…becoming God’s child.
M
MariaG
Guest
There is a difference between being *Knowing *you are saved and being *assured *or confident of your salvation. Catholics can confidently approach God, but see knowing as arrogantly approaching God. One would need to be a practicer of divination to KNOW you are going to heaven, because knowing requires knowledge of the future. The Bible tells us that there are those that have false assurance of salvation. Here is a snippet from CA.
From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”
Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."
Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.
But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace.
You can find the whole thing here catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
Your confident sister in Christ,
Maria
From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”
Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."
Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.
But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace.
You can find the whole thing here catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
Your confident sister in Christ,
Maria
K
Katholikos
Guest
Part 1 of 2
pendoko:
Christianity is a revealed religion. God the Father made Himself and His requirements for salvation known to us through his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, and appointed His Apostles as its leaders; Peter was the Chief of the Apostles and the #1 leader of the Church. The Apostles taught the Church all that God had revealed through Christ. The Church has the duty of teaching this Truth to others. She must teach the Truth exactly as it was given to her by Christ through the Apostles. The Apostles did not teach OSAS and neither does the Church.
We may know that we are going to heaven if we are in a state of grace; i.e., without sin, living in God’s friendship; but if we deliberately violate His laws and die unrepentant, we are choosing not to be with Him in heaven. The wages of sin is death. We know the rules. We choose whether or not to obey them. We may be assured of our salvation if we meet the requirements – but we may not have absolute, infallible certainty of salvation because we cannot presume that we will not fall into sin at some future time. Scripture says we must obey His commandments and persevere to the end [of our lives].
Continued
You’re saying: “I like the OSAS doctrine. Therefore, it’s true.”
Since God all-powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent, and can do anything He wills to do, it’s not a question of what He can or cannot do, but what He did do. He established the conditions for man’s salvation, and Once Saved Always Saved was not included.
Christianity is a revealed religion. God the Father made Himself and His requirements for salvation known to us through his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, and appointed His Apostles as its leaders; Peter was the Chief of the Apostles and the #1 leader of the Church. The Apostles taught the Church all that God had revealed through Christ. The Church has the duty of teaching this Truth to others. She must teach the Truth exactly as it was given to her by Christ through the Apostles. The Apostles did not teach OSAS and neither does the Church.
God made the rules. We must obey Him and His commandments until the end of our lives. No one has any right to presume that his salvation is secure, irrespective of the life he lives in the future.
We may know that we are going to heaven if we are in a state of grace; i.e., without sin, living in God’s friendship; but if we deliberately violate His laws and die unrepentant, we are choosing not to be with Him in heaven. The wages of sin is death. We know the rules. We choose whether or not to obey them. We may be assured of our salvation if we meet the requirements – but we may not have absolute, infallible certainty of salvation because we cannot presume that we will not fall into sin at some future time. Scripture says we must obey His commandments and persevere to the end [of our lives].
Continued
K
Katholikos
Guest
Part 2 of 2
To say that we can believe and commit sin and still go to heaven is a dangerous man-made doctrine.
We can believe Luther or believe Christ. The Church says with St. Paul that “we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” It is not assured.
The Catholic Church established the criteria for the writings that would be accepted into the canon of Christian Scriptures – the New Testament. She excluded any writings that did not conform to her teaching. Therefore, any interpretation of the NT that is not in agreement with the teaching of the Church is a ***misinterpretation. *** OSAS is a misinterpretation.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
Hell is our fate if we are disobedient and die without repentence.
To say that we can believe and commit sin and still go to heaven is a dangerous man-made doctrine.
Jesus and the Apostles did not teach OSAS. Martin Luther invented the doctrine in the 16th century. Luther wrote: “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
We can believe Luther or believe Christ. The Church says with St. Paul that “we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” It is not assured.
The Catholic Church established the criteria for the writings that would be accepted into the canon of Christian Scriptures – the New Testament. She excluded any writings that did not conform to her teaching. Therefore, any interpretation of the NT that is not in agreement with the teaching of the Church is a ***misinterpretation. *** OSAS is a misinterpretation.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
T
Tiffany
Guest
Wow is all I can say… You guys have loaded me down with verses to study! I love it! I haven’t had a chance yet to look over them but I have a question regaurding salvation and a few verses. We all know the Bible doesn’t contradict it self. Other wise it would not be the perfect word of God. So what do you do with these verses:
Ephesians 2:8,9
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised from the dead, through shalt be saved”
The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt though be with me in paradise.”
The thief was just that, a thief if he were to be judged on whether he was to go to heaven or hell based on works, he would be in hell. But all he did was believe that Christ could save him and Jesus said that today he would be in paradise with him.
Jesus talking to the sinfull women that wipped her hair and tears on his feet, Luke 7:50
“And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Romans 3:27, 28
“Where is boasting than? It is excluded. By what law of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 9:10
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Romans 10:13
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”
What are your takes on these verses?
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?
I’d love to hear what you think.
Tiff
Ephesians 2:8,9
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised from the dead, through shalt be saved”
The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt though be with me in paradise.”
The thief was just that, a thief if he were to be judged on whether he was to go to heaven or hell based on works, he would be in hell. But all he did was believe that Christ could save him and Jesus said that today he would be in paradise with him.
Jesus talking to the sinfull women that wipped her hair and tears on his feet, Luke 7:50
“And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Romans 3:27, 28
“Where is boasting than? It is excluded. By what law of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 9:10
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Romans 10:13
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”
What are your takes on these verses?
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?
I’d love to hear what you think.
Tiff
R
RNRobert
Guest
Jesus did more than enough to secure our salvation. However, we can always choose to reject His gift.
using your analogy of working for a company, you keep your job only so long as you do your job. If you are a slacker, or steal or willfully break company rules, you will lose your job.
Jesus told his listeners not all who said “Lord, Lord” will enter his Kingdom. He also told us that only those who perserver to the end will be saved.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
What we don’t do is wrench the verses out of their context and use them to prop up the false doctrine of OSAS.
Here is a Protestant that argues against OSAS:If ten years ago, you had told me that I would live to see literate evangelicals, some with doctorates and a seminary teaching record, arguing for the reality of an eternal salvation, divinely guaranteed, that may have in it no repentance, no discipleship, no behavioural change, no practical acknowledgement of Christ as Lord of one’s life, and no perseverance in truth. I would have told you that you were out of your mind …
ON UNDERSTANDING THE LORDSHIP CONTROVERSY
James I. Packer
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Luther did NOT embrace the heresy of antinomianism. In fact, Luther is the author of the term “antinomianism”, which he applied to Johannes Agricola.
Check out this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Antinomianism
(anti, against, and nomos, law)
The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law. The term first came into use at the Protestant Reformation, when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teachings of Johannes Agricola and his secretaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion …
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I
V
Vincent
Guest
Jimmy Akin’s debate notes, “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?,” might also be helpful.
T
Tiffany
Guest
Alot of you keep bringing up OSAS. What is that. I have never heard of it b4. Also, I would like you to give me an example of where those verses are taken out of context or wrenched in anyway. I believe if your going to through out acusations you need to back them up.What we don’t do is wrench the verses out of their context and use them to prop up the false doctrine of OSAS.
Here is a Protestant that argues against OSAS:If ten years ago, you had told me that I would live to see literate evangelicals, some with doctorates and a seminary teaching record, arguing for the reality of an eternal salvation, divinely guaranteed, that may have in it no repentance, no discipleship, no behavioural change, no practical acknowledgement of Christ as Lord of one’s life, and no perseverance in truth. I would have told you that you were out of your mind …
ON UNDERSTANDING THE LORDSHIP CONTROVERSY
James I. Packer
S
Sherlock
Guest
Tiffany,
Welcome to the forum!
You asked," We all know the Bible doesn’t contradict it self. Other wise it would not be the perfect word of God. So what do you do with these verses?"
You’re right: the Bible does not contradict itself. It can appear to, though, if individual verses are taken out and “pitted” against other verses. The Scriptures are to be taken as a whole.
Regarding the assurance of salvation, here’s a short but good explanation of the Catholic position: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
One way of explaining the Catholic position would be to say that we are saved by grace through faith expressed by loving obedience through action to the will of God. Of course, that action has to be within our capacity: the thief on the cross was not in a position to go out and minister to the poor, etc. He was in a position to admonish his fellow thief and to acknowledge his own sins, which he did—it’s not really accurate to say that “all he did was believe that Christ could save him”—he did what he could.
You asked what “OSAS” is: it is simply “once saved, always saved”.
Welcome to the forum!
You asked," We all know the Bible doesn’t contradict it self. Other wise it would not be the perfect word of God. So what do you do with these verses?"
You’re right: the Bible does not contradict itself. It can appear to, though, if individual verses are taken out and “pitted” against other verses. The Scriptures are to be taken as a whole.
Regarding the assurance of salvation, here’s a short but good explanation of the Catholic position: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
One way of explaining the Catholic position would be to say that we are saved by grace through faith expressed by loving obedience through action to the will of God. Of course, that action has to be within our capacity: the thief on the cross was not in a position to go out and minister to the poor, etc. He was in a position to admonish his fellow thief and to acknowledge his own sins, which he did—it’s not really accurate to say that “all he did was believe that Christ could save him”—he did what he could.
You asked what “OSAS” is: it is simply “once saved, always saved”.
J
jimmy
Guest
OSAS = Once Save Always Saved
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
Tiffany,
Those are all good bible verses, and Catholics believe all of them.
Ephesians 2:8,9
We are saved by grace through faith. The works that Paul is speaking of in Ephesians is specifically the works of the ritual laws. In Judaism, justification came from following the Law. Paul is saying that no one can justify themselves. It is an act of grace. Notice this verse does not say that we don’t need to do works of charity in cooperation with the free gift of salvation. We must work out our salvation as he says in Phillipians.
Romans 10:9
Absolutely. We must believe with our heart and confess with our lips. However, that is all that this verse says. It does not say that this is all you must do. Notice that this verse does not say, “and you need do nothing else”. You may imply that it means that this is all that is required. But as I showed in the 50-some verses I posted, Jesus says a lot more about salvation than just what Paul is saying here. There is more to the bible regarding salvation than this single verse. One verse does not make an entire theology.
The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
The good thief, St Dismas, was asking for forgiveness here. This is an example of the free gift that Christ bestows upon the repentant heart. Catholics believe that “deathbed” conversions are certinaly true. Remember that paradise is not Heaven, though. God did not go to heaven when He died. He went to the place where the just were kept before Jesus opened heaven to them.
Romans 3:27, 28
The law of works is the jewish ritual law. We are justified by faith, not by the law. However, nowhere does this verse say that the moral law (the 10 commandments) suddenly becomes optional. For what is faith if after coming to the knowledge of truth, we are trapped by sin. Then we are worse off then we were before. 2 Pet 2:20 says: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
Paul is talking about the Law. He is not talking about good works of charity (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc)
Romans 9:10
??? Romans 9:10 says this: Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
Romans 10:13
Most certainly those who call upon the Lord shall be saved. This is certainly a condition for salvation, but nowhere does the text indicate that this is the only condition and that there are no other conditions required. You are implying that something exists in the text that is simply not there.
( cont’d)
Those are all good bible verses, and Catholics believe all of them.
Ephesians 2:8,9
We are saved by grace through faith. The works that Paul is speaking of in Ephesians is specifically the works of the ritual laws. In Judaism, justification came from following the Law. Paul is saying that no one can justify themselves. It is an act of grace. Notice this verse does not say that we don’t need to do works of charity in cooperation with the free gift of salvation. We must work out our salvation as he says in Phillipians.
Romans 10:9
Absolutely. We must believe with our heart and confess with our lips. However, that is all that this verse says. It does not say that this is all you must do. Notice that this verse does not say, “and you need do nothing else”. You may imply that it means that this is all that is required. But as I showed in the 50-some verses I posted, Jesus says a lot more about salvation than just what Paul is saying here. There is more to the bible regarding salvation than this single verse. One verse does not make an entire theology.
The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
The good thief, St Dismas, was asking for forgiveness here. This is an example of the free gift that Christ bestows upon the repentant heart. Catholics believe that “deathbed” conversions are certinaly true. Remember that paradise is not Heaven, though. God did not go to heaven when He died. He went to the place where the just were kept before Jesus opened heaven to them.
Romans 3:27, 28
The law of works is the jewish ritual law. We are justified by faith, not by the law. However, nowhere does this verse say that the moral law (the 10 commandments) suddenly becomes optional. For what is faith if after coming to the knowledge of truth, we are trapped by sin. Then we are worse off then we were before. 2 Pet 2:20 says: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
Paul is talking about the Law. He is not talking about good works of charity (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc)
Romans 9:10
??? Romans 9:10 says this: Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
Romans 10:13
Most certainly those who call upon the Lord shall be saved. This is certainly a condition for salvation, but nowhere does the text indicate that this is the only condition and that there are no other conditions required. You are implying that something exists in the text that is simply not there.
( cont’d)
D
Dan-Man916
Guest
You said:
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?
Please see my verses above that talk about “salvation through charity” (works), and “Remaining in Christ” and “Are you saved”? (posts #15 & 16)
These are all biblical texts as well. We must take the context of the entire bible and compare it to what the constant teaching of the Church has always been from the time before these bible verses were written until today. The history of the Church from the first century attests to the fact that eternal security was not believed by the 1st or 2nd century Christians.
The entire context of the bible is that salvation is by grace through faith and hope working in charity. That is the correct biblical formula for salvation, and that is what Catholics have believed since the day of Pentecost.
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?
Please see my verses above that talk about “salvation through charity” (works), and “Remaining in Christ” and “Are you saved”? (posts #15 & 16)
These are all biblical texts as well. We must take the context of the entire bible and compare it to what the constant teaching of the Church has always been from the time before these bible verses were written until today. The history of the Church from the first century attests to the fact that eternal security was not believed by the 1st or 2nd century Christians.
The entire context of the bible is that salvation is by grace through faith and hope working in charity. That is the correct biblical formula for salvation, and that is what Catholics have believed since the day of Pentecost.
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