Assurance of Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tiffany
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No one is assured of salvation, we can only hope and put opur trust in the mercy of Jesus, so we persevere to the end. Not only is there anyone in hell, by far, most choose to go there. Christ told us the road to heaven was narrow and few took it. I came across this sermon recently which is quite sobering. It is something to be printed off and meditated on. The full sermon is at olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml . This is important for every catholic to get a grip of. We have a hope of salvation and no more. Dying with even one unrepented mortal sin leads to eternal damnation.

The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved

by St. Leonard of Port Maurice
 
40.png
pendoko:
I think that you are wrong in analyzing the Biblical facts.

Look below:

Romans
7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Without God, man can’t fight the power of sin.
Click to expand...
I completely agree that without God man can’t fight the power of sin. Christ’s sacrifice broke the power that sin has over us. Now we have God’s grace to help us resist (1 Cor 10:13).

Are you absolutely certain that your understanding of scripture is correct? Is it possible that you’re inadvertantly misinterpreting God’s word?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
40.png
pendoko:
I am saved BUT I am not perfect. God had already told us that believing Him and accepting Him can make a person His child…adopted child. Is there anything that could separate us from the love of God? When God holds your hands, is there anything or anyone can separate His child from His hands?

You are separated because you are not His child.
Click to expand...
But you said that the man in the example, even though he truly believed that he was saved for years and years really never was. The example man believed Him and accepted Him, yet you say he was never really saved. There’s no way you can be certain that you’re saved if simply thinking that you are is no gaurentee. You could be just like the man in the example. One day you could go through a crisis and turn your back on Christ like the example man. Not that you will, but not knowing the future you could. In that case, even though you think you’re saved right now you’re really not.

According to your argument no one can really know
whether or not he’s saved until he gets to heaven, even if he thinks he knows now. The example man knew, but he was wrong. Following that logic you could be wrong too.

In Christ,
Nancy
 
40.png
Tiffany:
I’m not going to say what I believe yet because I am not done studying the scriptures. However I will say that I was not quoting anything from the Catholics. I was stating what I believe and infact I know very little about Catholics exept for following traditions such as lent and believing in pergitory sp?. And I’m not even sure that all Catholics believe that. Also as a Baptist I was never confused about the Bible and I’m still not. Not all Baptists believe the same and therefor your Baptist upbringing could have been very different from mine and how they taught from the pulpit.
Click to expand...
Tiffany, you can know what the Catholic Church teaches by going to the Catechism of the Catholic Church on line. It has an excellent search engine, so you can look up any subject.

scborromeo.org

Catholics don’t study the scriptures the way Protestants do. We know that the Church received the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The Church is guardian of the Deposit of Faith entrusted to her by the Apostles. She learned her doctrines from the lips of the Apostles, not from reading and interpreting a book – not even one as sacred as the Bible. Catholics study the scriptures to know the Church’s doctrines more deeply and to apply them to our own lives, but we don’t study them to “discover” doctrine.

Do you ever wonder why Protestants have to search the scriptures for answers, when Christianity is 2,000 years old? Christianity is a revealed religion – God revealed Himself and His plan for salvation through Christ to the Apostles, the leaders of the Catholic Church. Yet every Protestant feels compelled to determine from scripture once again issues like infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and the like. I was always told to “search the scriptures” when I inquired, as if Christ had not already answered the question.

Christ Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church, and the Church wrote the New Testament.

There are thousands of denominations, all based on the same Bible, and no two of them agree. To me, that was an insurmountable problem.

Peace be with you, Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
 
*"Do you ever wonder why Protestants have to search the scriptures for answers, when Christianity is 2,000 years old? Christianity is a revealed religion – God revealed Himself and His plan for salvation through Christ to the Apostles, the leaders of the Catholic Church. Yet every Protestant feels compelled to determine from scripture once again issues like infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and the like. I was always told to “search the scriptures” when I inquired, as if Christ had not already answered the question.

Christ Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church, and the Church wrote the New Testament."*

But the thing is, God did leave us the Bible and he says to study it! 2Timothy 2:15 “Study to show theyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” In this verse Paul is not talking to just Priests or Preachers but rather to all Christians. If you read around this passage you find that he is telling us to Study the Bible and beware of teachers of the Bible that don’t have their story straight or that do not teach from the Bible at all. We all sin and make mistakes…the Bible states " For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." Romans 3:23 This verse didn’t say that all except pastors or all except priest…it said all haved sinned. That’s why it is so important to study the Bible for yourselves and find what it is actually saying. If you have a Bible preaching priest or pastor that studies the Word and backs his comments and beliefs up with scripture with out minipulating it, than you have an easier job. However, they still make mistakes and it is most important to study it for yourselves from all aspects of the Word with out a bias and truly letting God speak to you as to what he means. God reveals himself to everyone through his Word. When Jesus was on earth they didn’t have the Bible because Jesus was their form of Bible, so yes he taught it and than used the apostles and other men throughout the generations to spread the good news. Not unlike today, he teaches us and speaks to us through his word because we don’t have Jesus here to teach us. So we read and more importantly study his Word that we might grow in him, worship him and spread the good news all to the glory of his name.
The Bible also warns about traditions of the church. Traditions in of themselves are not bad it is only when those traditions have the followers breaking the commandment of God or going against the Bible. Jesus makes this very clear in the beginning of chapter 7 in the book of Mark.“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do” Mark 7:7,8. “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered:and many such like things do ye.” Mark 7:13
The thing is Christ has already answered many questions and he left it for us in his Word. The only way to know for ourselves what those answers are…are to study his Word, The Bible. It’s foolish to leave your faith up to other humans and blindly follow other sinners as ourselves who make mistakes and can very easily mislead you.
“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” Psalms 119:11 If we don’t study it and memorize it we cannot hide it in our heart.
There are a tone more verses that tell us to read and study the Bible…but I think you get my point. One more thing, the Church didn’t write the New Testement, God did and used men to physically write it as he did the old:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2Tim 3:14

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2Peter 1:21

Tiff
 
Tiffany–‘St. Paul could not have been talking about reading the Bible because the Bible had not been written. Paul did not know that his writings and others’ writings were going to be compiled into the Bible several hundreds of years later. So you are misreading what he is saying to suit your beliefs.
 
Pendoko,

You wrote: “That man that you had given as an example is not a real child of God.”

Well, he thought he was. He was sure of it when I first got to know him: very active in his church, even serving as a youth minister. When he was younger, he went to Moody Bible College to further study Scriptures. He was a very active and committed Christian. If, as you say, he was not a child of God, then how is one to be sure? He was certain he was at that time—just like you. He was wrong, according to you, and so you might be too.
 
Tiffany,

You wrote: “But the thing is, God did leave us the Bible and he says to study it!”

Ummm, Tiffany, the Bible wasn’t “assembled” and discerned until several hundred years after Jesus’ death and resurrection. God did leave us a deposit of faith, which was passed down, both orally and in written form, by the Church. And no orthodox Catholic would disagree with your contention that we have to study it—of course! As St. Jerome said, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Jesus Christ”. But are you aware of the process by which the Church decided upon the canon of books, and by so doing decided which were inspired writings and which were not? Sometimes it seems as if Bible-only Christians have this notion that this magical book just appeared out of nowhere, with chapter and verse numbered.

I don’t have the time now to go over every verse that you cited, though I might have more time to tomorrow. But one quick comment: you wrote, “The only way to know for ourselves what those answers are…are to study his Word, The Bible.” Where in the Bible does it say that it is the ONLY way? And what does the Bible tell us is “the pillar and foundation of truth”? The answer is—the Church. Look it up.

Regarding 2Tim 3:14: John Henry Newman ( a former Protestant scholar and clergyman) explained it in an 1884 essay entitled “Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation.” He wrote: “It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle Paul requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy. Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith.”

But the proof is in the pudding: Protestants who rely on the Bible for their sole authority can’t agree themselves on what it says and so have split into many thousand denominations, many of which contradict each other in essential matters of doctrine. Truth is not relative; truth is a person, Jesus Christ. Truth can’t contradict itself, as God cannot contradict Himself.
 
Tiffany–‘St. Paul could not have been talking about reading the Bible because the Bible had not been written. Paul did not know that his writings and others’ writings were going to be compiled into the Bible several hundreds of years later. So you are misreading what he is saying to suit your beliefs

As you said Paul wrote this letter and he is telling us to study dividing the word of truth. I believe that the Bible is the word of truth that God has given us. The term word in this verse in Hebrew is logos meaning the divine expression, account, doctrine. The Bible is the doctrine of God and his divine expression to us through the accounts of others who where inspired by God to write it. God told Paul what to right, and to say that he didn’t know about the scripture is totally wrong. Paul wrote 2Timothy and in it he stated as I had mentioned earlier:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2Tim 3:14
 
I completely agree that without God man can’t fight the power of sin. Christ’s sacrifice broke the power that sin has over us. Now we have God’s grace to help us resist (1 Cor 10:13).

Are you absolutely certain that your understanding of scripture is correct? Is it possible that you’re inadvertantly misinterpreting God’s word?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
Click to expand...
I think I had a better understanding of scriptures than the Catholic believer. I don’t think that I’m mis-interpreting God’s words.
 
But you said that the man in the example, even though he truly believed that he was saved for years and years really never was. The example man believed Him and accepted Him, yet you say he was never really saved. There’s no way you can be certain that you’re saved if simply thinking that you are is no gaurentee. You could be just like the man in the example. One day you could go through a crisis and turn your back on Christ like the example man. Not that you will, but not knowing the future you could. In that case, even though you think you’re saved right now you’re really not.

According to your argument no one can really know
whether or not he’s saved until he gets to heaven, even if he thinks he knows now. The example man knew, but he was wrong. Following that logic you could be wrong too.

In Christ,
Nancy
Click to expand...
We need to remember that being saved is being God’s child. John 1:12.

No insane God who will lead His children to complete destruction of sin by the power of Lucifer and his demons. No insane God who will leave His child to die in Hell. If John 1:12 and other relating verses were right, then, assurance of salvation is correct.

The man above who was exampled did not understand the real meaning of salvation, God’s plan, and God’s grace and God’s mercy.
 
How could every person’s personal interpretation of scripture be the same?

Scripture itself warns in Peter not to interpret it apart from the community.

This is because Jesus said he would send us the Holy Spirit to guide the church.

I listen intently to the three scripture readings at Mass each Sunday and the priest’s homily.

I also read the catechism which the Church, inspired by the spirit helps me make sense of the many contradictions, allegorical language, literal language, history and legend in this controversial, but useful book.

The Church assembled this book and the church is our authority. To say that a xian needs this book and to be literate is actually unscriptural, it would be implying that xians in the first 400 years of the church died with no authority - as there was no assembled canon.

-former protestant who loves the Bible, reads it for advice but when pressed about the meaning, defers to the Church ex officio, who by her offices is there to guide and teach me.

 
40.png
Sherlock:
Pendoko,

You wrote: “That man that you had given as an example is not a real child of God.”

Well, he thought he was. He was sure of it when I first got to know him: very active in his church, even serving as a youth minister. When he was younger, he went to Moody Bible College to further study Scriptures. He was a very active and committed Christian. If, as you say, he was not a child of God, then how is one to be sure? He was certain he was at that time—just like you. He was wrong, according to you, and so you might be too.
Click to expand...
Anybody can be religious but not spiritual. Anybody can be called Christians but not called as “God’s children”. Anybody can do all the things inside the Church and yet forget the real plan of God. A real child of God is always in the center of Lucifer’s most dangerous attacks, but since this child is God’s own property, no power could ever destroyed that child. So to stop serving God means stop serving your Father. That is impossible for the real child of God.
 
Tiffany said:
Tiffany–‘St. Paul could not have been talking about reading the Bible because the Bible had not been written. Paul did not know that his writings and others’ writings were going to be compiled into the Bible several hundreds of years later. So you are misreading what he is saying to suit your beliefs

As you said Paul wrote this letter and he is telling us to study dividing the word of truth. I believe that the Bible is the word of truth that God has given us. The term word in this verse in Hebrew is logos meaning the divine expression, account, doctrine. The Bible is the doctrine of God and his divine expression to us through the accounts of others who where inspired by God to write it. God told Paul what to right, and to say that he didn’t know about the scripture is totally wrong. Paul wrote 2Timothy and in it he stated as I had mentioned earlier:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2Tim 3:14
Click to expand...

Hi Tiffany! 👋

The red words seem to say it all. It’s true because you believe it. The Bible never says, nor even implies that it alone is the word of truth that God has given us yet to you it true for no other reason than because you believe it. It’s not true because it’s in the bible, because it isn’t. You’ve made yourself the standard by which you measure the truth of others’ beliefs.

The trouble with this approach to bible interpretation is that any and all interpretations are equally valid. Truth is relative to the believer. Truth is whatever the individual believer believes it is. Often times the truths of individual believers flat out contradict one another, yet neither party will concede that individual interpretation of scripture simply doesn’t work.

In an earlier post your wrote:
That’s why it is so important to study the Bible for yourselves and find what it is actually saying. If you have a Bible preaching priest or pastor that studies the Word and backs his comments and beliefs up with scripture with out minipulating it, than you have an easier job. However, they still make mistakes
Click to expand...
The implication here is that if your pastor is not reaching the same conclusions about scripture that you are he’s intentionally manipulating the scriptures. If he weren’t then of course he’d be preaching exactly what you believe the scriptures are saying. It’s possible for Bible preaching priests and pastors to make mistakes, but not you because God is telling you personally what the bible is “actually saying”.

You also said:
and it is most important to study it for yourselves from all aspects of the Word with out a bias and truly letting God speak to you as to what he means.
Click to expand...
No one reads scripture in a vacuum. Everyone who reads scripture reads it through the lens of his own personal experience. It is absolutely impossible to read scripture without some sort of bias. For example, you read scripture with the bias that it alone is the word of God. You didn’t get this from anything in the bible itself. It simply isn’t there. But this is what you’ve been taught, it’s what you believe, therefore it’s the lens through which you read scripture. Therefore you will reach different and often conflicting interpretations than those who read scripture through a different lens.

Even those who truly believe that they read scripture with absolutely no bias but rather are completely open to the truth come away from scripture with conflicting and contradictory interpretations. So either God is giving conflicting and contradictory interpretations of his word, or he simply doesn’t hand out correct interpretations of his word on an individual basis. Which is more likely?

CONTINUED…
 
Now don’t get me wrong. Individuals MUST prayerfully read scripture daily and CAN come to SOME understanding of the truth. God speaks to individuals through his word all the time, on individual matters. But as to truths that apply to everyone, absolute truths, God is obviously not handing out correct interpretations of the bible on an individual basis. If you don’t believe me try a simple experiment. Open up the yellow pages and go to “churches”. Choose a topic, any topic dealing with salvation, for example once saved always saved. Start calling non-Catholic churches and ask for their position on the matter. In short order you’ll be getting contradictory answers from different churches. Be sure to ask why they teach what they do. They will ALL tell you that it’s the clear teaching of the bible. Wnat to really drive yourself nuts? Try a topic like the rapture. You’ll get so many different, conflicting answers it’ll make your head spin. And, of course, each of these contradictory ideas is the one clearly taught in scripture if only you’re reading it without a bias.

The Catholic Church claims to be the Church of Matt 16:18, the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Have you ever looked into that claim? I invite you to give it a try!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
posted by Tiffany
The Bible also warns about traditions of the church. Traditions in of themselves are not bad it is only when those traditions have the followers breaking the commandment of God or going against the Bible. Jesus makes this very clear in the beginning of chapter 7 in the book of Mark.“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do” Mark 7:7,8. “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered:and many such like things do ye.” Mark 7:13
Click to expand...
Where does it warn about tradition of the church? It is talking about traditions of men.

You imply in your post that there may be Traditions of the Catholic Church that are against the Bible. Could you please be more specific. The Catholic Church is wonderfully Biblical, and I would love to “show it to you in the Bible”.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Well because Martin Luther was well-meaning and there was corruption in parts of the Church back then does not mean his thesis is correct.

If indulgences were sold they are not anymore. If simony was practiced in places it is not now. The thing to remember about humans is that they are imperfect and the Church, though it cannot sin has members who can and do. They are human beings.

Martin Luther had good intentions but when he crossed the line from reform to full blown advocacy of heresy then he sinned.

He could have been a powerful voice for reform back then, instead his ideas unleashed centuries of violence and division in Christendom.

There is still one Church. Its members are sinners but the Church does not.

In matters of faith and morals it is as bulwark against the lies of each time and age for the faithful to lean against and draw upon.

It is the vessel of our salvation and a hospital for sinners not a museum of saints.
 
Gunner,

This is from CA here parts in bold are by me: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. **Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation. **
Click to expand...
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it.
Click to expand...
These have an *IMPRIMATUR. *There is a difference between arrogantly proclaiming your salvation until the end of time no matter what you do and walking with confidence . I hope you are not saying we cannot have confidence of our salvation?

God Bless,
Maria
 
This is one issue where, once the language barrier is scaled, their is really no essential difference between Catholic theology and that of many Protestants. As a Free Methodist, I hold basically the same view of the assurance of Salvation. Present assurance is both possible and healthy – but as a previous writer has said here, one must “Keep the faith”.

I expect to continue to walk with the Lord, so I can have peace about my future – but I certainly don’t think that I can “Live like the devil” and still see heaven.
 
40.png
MariaG:
Where does it warn about tradition of the church? It is talking about traditions of men.

You imply in your post that there may be Traditions of the Catholic Church that are against the Bible. Could you please be more specific. The Catholic Church is wonderfully Biblical, and I would love to “show it to you in the Bible”.

God Bless,
Maria
Click to expand...
The People that Jesus was talking to was the pharisees which were religious leaders back in that day. They were the leaders of the church and they were bringing the traditions of men into the church and they went against the commandment of God. That is what God is warning about in this passage and what I was talking about. Bringing the traditions of men into the church by which they become the traditions of the church and not of God. I would encourage you to read around the passage (verses 1-23) to get the whole idea of what God was saying.

Also, I never stated that specifically the Catholic Church had traditions, I was speaking in general about all churches. All religions have some churches that add traditions that go against Gods commandment. Mind you I said some churches not all. But that’s a whole nother discussion and/or debate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top