Assurance of Salvation

[Matt16_18]

StubbleSpark:

Also interesting is Martin Luther’s total failure to reign in his own flock and maintain unity in the face of his first big heresy.

Martin Luther was so full of pride that he believed that everyone would accept his private interpretation of scriptures, and that he could set up an alternative to the Catholic Church with Martin Luther leading the masses to the truth. In the end, Martin Luther lived to regret the demon he unleashed by placing the private interpretation of scriptures above the authentic teaching of Christ’s Church.

If Protestantism was united in doctrine and stood as a unified institution as an alternative to the Catholic Church, then Protestantism might have some degree of believability. The fact that Protestantism is fragmented into thousands upon thousands of sects that cannot all agree upon one single article of faith is proof that the claims the Protestants make about “sola scriptura” and the private interpretation of scriptures are false. The greatest argument against “sola scriptura” that one can make is simply to point out the division and bickering contentiousness that exists among the thousands of Protestant sects.

The very earliest mention of the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura was by Martin Luther as he was questioned in the Synod of Augsburg (Germany) in October 1518. In his appeal to the Council, Luther placed the Bible and his interpretation of it, above the Pope. Even so he admitted the authority of the Synod and of the Bible were equivalent, only in the hope that the Synod would give him a favorable decision. In the Leipzig Disputation in July 1519, Luther went a step further and declared that Scripture ranked above a Church Council, and that Ecumenical Councils had already erred in matters of faith. As a result he was branded a heretic.

The Origin Of The False Doctrine Of Sola Scriptura…

 

[StubbleSpark]

I have actually met a Calvinist history prof who said:

“Luther was not able to control his flock because after usurping the authority of the Church, what was to stop his followers from ignoring him?”

I thought to myself, he is sooo close to converting! How could you be aware of this dynamic and NOT understand the importance of a majesterium?

Boy, was I ever wrong. It turns out he is a very devout Calvinist and not really interested in Catholicism at all. It was a major disappointment.

What more could you possibly tell someone?

 

[Tiffany]

This is all very interesting. It’s very different for me to see all these different views and opinions on the Bible and assurance of salvation. I will say there are alot of generalizations that are going on that perhaps some should watch. But I guess that’s a comon mistake. But the reality is, If you go to one OSAS believing church they could believe something different to be true than another OSAS church. Same with Catholics, Baptists (all religions are pretty much that way). Even people that go to the same church believe differently in some spiritual areas and sometimes in almost every area. I like the discusion, so keep it up (although I must admit I get really lost when some of you talk about Martin Luther, I don’t know anything about him
Tiff

 

[Ignatius]

Tiffany:

. . . . But the reality is, If you go to one OSAS believing church they could believe something different to be true than another OSAS church. Same with Catholics, Baptists (all religions are pretty much that way).

Hi Tiff,

That is not true. What makes a person a Catholic is belief in what Jesus taught and handed down to the Apostles and their successors. If you don’t hold the Beliefs of a Catholic, you aren’t a Catholic. That is what the whold thread is about.

 

[Genesis315]

Tiffany:

This is all very interesting. It’s very different for me to see all these different views and opinions on the Bible and assurance of salvation. I will say there are alot of generalizations that are going on that perhaps some should watch. But I guess that’s a comon mistake. But the reality is, If you go to one OSAS believing church they could believe something different to be true than another OSAS church. Same with Catholics, Baptists (all religions are pretty much that way). Even people that go to the same church believe differently in some spiritual areas and sometimes in almost every area. I like the discusion, so keep it up (although I must admit I get really lost when some of you talk about Martin Luther, I don’t know anything about him
Tiff

All Catholic parishes must teach and believe the same thing. That’s one of the beauties of the Church. We have whole Truth, there’s no personal interpretations that vary from chruch to church. Church teaching doesn’t change with the wind like protestant churches (see contraception and most recently the acceptance of homosexuality) because the teachings of the Catholic Church are safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Contarini]

It’s important to bear in mind that one can believe in assurance of salvation without believing in eternal security. That is to say, we can have the witness of the Spirit that we are at peace with God, but this doesn’t guarantee that we will persevere to the end.

Tiffany, if you want to learn about Luther, this is not the place to do so. Most of the Catholics on this board (with some wonderful exceptions) who claim to know about Luther rely on old books of Catholic propaganda with a lot of quotations taken out of context, and a lot of generalizations that are not at all fair to Luther.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Kendall]

The Heavenly Banquet, i.e., Salvation, is an invitation ONLY affair. You can’t crash the party, and you can’t invite yourself. It is ONLY by the Grace of God that one is invited. The “doors” to the Banquet are narrow. It is through our good works, prayers, and participation in a Sacramental life that God’s Grace pours forth into our souls. We must pray that those who claim to know that they have a standing invitation are not disgraced. Suppose that a fine person were to assume his own Salvation based on his proclamation that Jesus is Lord and Savior. And further suppose that fine person were to subsequently fall into a state of grave mortal sin, became DIS-Graced as it were. That person’s friends might then claim that the fine person was never really saved to begin with. That may be, but the fine person THOUGHT he/she was indeed saved. I’ll keeping working, praying and participating to gain an invitation, thanks anyway.

 

[Ignatius]

pendoko:

It is the “written” words of God that will guide the real Church of Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit. By using this standard, the Catholic Church is falling short.

My friend, it was the Catholic Church which both delivered the Holy Scripture and spread the Gospel for 1500 years before the advent of protestantism. Jesus established His Church when He was on earth and promised to protect it for all time, even unto the end of the world. He is faithful to keep His word. It is the false teaching of men that started in the 1530’s that you follow.

May the Holy Spirit remove the scales from your eyes and bring you to the source and foundation of Truth.

 

[Ozzie]

Contarini:

It’s important to bear in mind that one can believe in assurance of salvation without believing in eternal security. That is to say, we can have the witness of the Spirit that we are at peace with God, but this doesn’t guarantee that we will persevere to the end.

One what basis are you at peace with God? And on what basis, then, are you assured of your salvation if you don’t have eternal security? You say you’re not guaranteed to “persevere to the end” (a verse taken out of context), so then how is it you can have “assurance” of salvation? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

 

[Tiffany]

Genesis315:

All Catholic parishes must teach and believe the same thing. That’s one of the beauties of the Church. We have whole Truth, there’s no personal interpretations that vary from chruch to church. Church teaching doesn’t change with the wind like protestant churches (see contraception and most recently the acceptance of homosexuality) because the teachings of the Catholic Church are safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.

I know several Catholics that go to the same church and don’t believe exactly the same things. It’s hard to find someone that believes exactly the same as someone else in every aspect! There is always something, even if it’s small that they don’t agree on. Try not to generalize so much. Your opinion above might be the ideal Catholic church but according to my experiences with a lot of my Catholic friends, it is not realistic.

 

[Tiffany]

I was watching ABC last night and found out something interesting about the Pope. They said that he was some what contriversial and than they showed a clip of him saying “When God gives life it is forever” It was so odd for me to hear that from a Catholic let alone a Pope that I wrote it down right away. I thought Catholics didn’t believe in eternal security?

Just something I found interesting, what do you all think? Maybe he meant it in a different way. Although at the moment I can’t think of how else he would have meant that. Maybe you guys can shed some light on what he meant
Tiffany

 

[deb1]

Catholic4aReasn:

But you said that the man in the example, even though he truly believed that he was saved for years and years really never was. The example man believed Him and accepted Him, yet you say he was never really saved. There’s no way you can be certain that you’re saved if simply thinking that you are is no gaurentee. You could be just like the man in the example. One day you could go through a crisis and turn your back on Christ like the example man. Not that you will, but not knowing the future you could. In that case, even though you think you’re saved right now you’re really not.

According to your argument no one can really know
whether or not he’s saved until he gets to heaven, even if he thinks he knows now. The example man knew, but he was wrong. Following that logic you could be wrong too.

In Christ,
Nancy

I have to admit this version of once saved, always saved was a great torture to me. Every one in my Baptist church seemed to accept without problem this belief. Yet, it seemed to go against human nature. We have all seen examples of very devout Christians fall and in some cases loose their faith. I used to wonder what was wrong with me that I didn’t find what I was being taught in this particular church as comforting.

I remember when the Da Vinci Code came out our pastor warned us not to read it. The pastor had a good friend who told our pastor that he had begun to doubt his faith after reading the book. Now if a person has divine assurance of their faith then why warn them away from a book? That didn’t make sense to me then and it doesn’t now.

 

[deb1]

“
There are basically two flavors of OSAS, the hyper-Calvinist flavor, and the antinomian flavor.

The antinomian flavor of OSAS (e.g. Southern Baptists) teaches that once a man is “saved”, that there is no sin that he could possibly commit that would make him lose his salvation. Being “saved” frees one from having to obey ANY law, even the moral law (e.g. the Ten Commandments, the two great commandments of love, etc.). A “saved” man could die as a backslid unrepentant Satan worshipper that hates God and still enter heaven after his death.

A hyper-Calvinist would never agree with a Southern Baptist that unrepentant Satan worshippers can ever enter Heaven. Hyper-Calvinist OSAS is something quite different than Southern Baptist antinomian OSAS.

Hyper-Calvinist OSAS is usually explained in terms of the “elect” and “irresistible grace”. The false doctrine of “irresistible” grace is the foundation stone of the heresy of hyper-Calvinist OSAS. Irresistible grace forces an “elect” man to be obedient to God, because irresistible grace destroys a man’s free will. Because the hyper-Calvinist denies the existance of free will, he blasphemes God, because hyper-Calvinism makes God the ultimate source of all evil.

Both the antinomian OSAS and the hyper-Calvinist OSAS are pernicious heresies. Catholics interested in apologetics should understand the difference between these two flavors of OSAS so that they can address the false beliefs that form the foundation of these two distinct heresies.

Thank you. I have wondered what to call the form of OSAS my church preached and now I know.

 

[Contarini]

Ozzie:

One what basis are you at peace with God?

Ozzie:

Faith in the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, sealed in my heart by the witness of the Spirit.

Ozzie:

And on what basis, then, are you assured of your salvation if you don’t have eternal security? You say you’re not guaranteed to “persevere to the end”

(a verse taken out of context),

Ozzie:

It wasn’t a verse. It was a phrase. The conditionality of perseverance is taught clearly elsewhere in Scripture, and is the unanimous witness of the tradition before the 16th century (Bucer? Maybe Zwingli, but I haven’t found a passage where he teaches OSAS).

Ozzie:

so then how is it you can have “assurance”

of salvation? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

I don’t think one can have absolute assurance of final salvation. I should have made the distinction clearer. I think we can have assurance that we are at peace with God (although of course it’s possible to be deceived). And to know Christ is salvation in the present moment.

Edwin

 

[Tiffany]

Does anyone have a comment on what the Pope said? Just curious.

Tiffany

 

[MariaG]

posted by Tiffany

I was watching ABC last night and found out something interesting about the Pope. They said that he was some what contriversial and than they showed a clip of him saying “When God gives life it is forever” It was so odd for me to hear that from a Catholic let alone a Pope that I wrote it down right away. I thought Catholics didn’t believe in eternal security?

Just something I found interesting, what do you all think? Maybe he meant it in a different way. Although at the moment I can’t think of how else he would have meant that. Maybe you guys can shed some light on what he meant
Tiffany

I didn’t see it and would need more context to comment. Sorry.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Contarini]

I think he was talking about the sanctity of human life–criticizing the death penalty or something like that. I don’t think it had anything to do with eternal security.

Edwin

 

[Deus_Solus]

Tiffany,

First of all I want to say that I think it is great that you are searching out the truth. I come from a Plymouth Brethren background (pretty hardcore fundamentalist), and am, like you, searching for God’s truth. Never forget His promise in Jeremiah 29:13, which has been a solace to me as I wrestle with my own faith.

I managed to locate the entirety of John Paul II’s quote which is as follows:

I do not hesitate to proclaim before you and before the world that all human life…is sacred, because human life is created in the image and likeness of God. Nothing surpasses the greatness or dignity of a human person. Human life is precious because it is the gift of God whose love is infinite; and when God gives life, it is forever. And so, we will stand up every time that human life is threatened. When the sacredness of life before birth is attacked, we will stand up and proclaim that no one ever has the authority to destroy unborn life.

As you can see, this quote has to do with his stance on abortion.

Tiffany:

I know several Catholics that go to the same church and don’t believe exactly the same things. It’s hard to find someone that believes exactly the same as someone else in every aspect!

You are right, individual Catholics aren’t unanimous in their beliefs about different matters. What is unified, however, is the doctrine and dogma being taught. This is unlike non-denominational churches, where the entire church is at the mercy of the pastor’s individual theology and interpretation of Scripture. Where Catholicism differs from Protestantism is in its unity and continuity of doctrine, traced back to the apostles and the early church. Study the writings of the Church Fathers (i.e. Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus, etc.) and you will find that their theology is Catholic!

God Bless.

 

[Ignatius]

Tiffany:

Does anyone have a comment on what the Pope said? Just curious.

Tiffany

That is why Jesus Christ became man, suffered and died. Have you ever been to a Catholic Divine Liturgy or Mass? If you do, not long after the Gospel reading listen for this prayer to Christ, “Dying you distroyed our death, rising You restored our life”.

 

[Tiffany]

“I do not hesitate to proclaim before you and before the world that all human life…is sacred, because human life is created in the image and likeness of God. Nothing surpasses the greatness or dignity of a human person. Human life is precious because it is the gift of God whose love is infinite; and when God gives life, it is forever. And so, we will stand up every time that human life is threatened. When the sacredness of life before birth is attacked, we will stand up and proclaim that no one ever has the authority to destroy unborn life.”

Thanks so much for finding that! It makes so much more sence now. I thought that was really odd for a Pope to believe in eternal security. I suspected it was the media painting it as something different. Got to love their “nonbiased” reports.

Thanks again,
Tiffany