Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

[natsclem]

I think it is impossible to approve the Authority of Papacy through the Gospel, because it will be a huge contradiction between what the Disciples including Paul thinking of the Message of God to People through His Son Jesus Christ and what we today looking for to approve something I think it was not in the mind of Apostles even when Jesus said to Peter:
Mathew: 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven.”

******In this case I think Paul will be in accountable when he rejected what Peter suggested that every Gentile come to Christianity should observe the Law of Moses?

However, if you read in Mathew: 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven. So here Jesus giving the Keys of Kingdom to all Apostles not just to Simon isn’t it?

it’s a continuation of my reply…

One more thing, can you prove from the Scripture that Christ said to Apostle Thomas or any other apostle, “feed my sheep” three times? If not, therefore, the Pope as successor of Peter has universal jurisdiction over all His sheep. If you claim that you are Christ’s sheep then you must recognize the voice of the Pope as your shepherd. If you don’t, you are not Christ’s sheep; and, whose sheep are you?

The Pope because of that burning desire to keep all mankind in the sheepfold of Christ is sometimes doing silly things like mingling with unbelievers and shaking hands with those who rejects his authority doing all care not to offend their pride.

Has any patriarch claiming independence from papal authority been doing what the pope is doing extending his arms to all–believers and unbelievers alike–endangering his life to wolves? None, because none of them was given by Christ with that grace and mandate to universally shepherd his “entire flock”, the whole Church. Those who impedes are wolves, ruining the souls of many.

 

[natsclem]

Hello all, I’m new here.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I am Narsai, one of the Readers who is within the diocese of His Grace Mar Bawai Soro. I am also one the people in the original signing of the declaration of intent. I was brought upon this site by my dear brother in Christ antgaria. I am hopeful we will continue to have wonderful discussions about our impending union with the Chaldean Rite and ultimately Rome.

We hope and pray that our Bishop, Mar Bawai Soro will continue to fulfill what the Apostle John said, “That they all may be one,” John 17:21. It is our hope that this verse will reverberate throughout the CotE branches and convict them upon that Light to hopefully one day unite and strengthen themselves in a quest to once again evangelize and preach the Gospel of our Father.

-N.

Brethren, WELCOME HOME!

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Natsclem

I don’t agree with you that the Pope must bow to Tradition if you mean by Tradition as the body of beliefs and practices developed and expressed in the course of time in various churches scattered in different parts of the globe.

Then we must agree to disagree.

The Pope is at the service of Tradition–oral transmission of the Word of God (the Teachings of Christ handed-down by His Apostles) thru preaching and liturgical celebrations. He is the protector, so to speak, of the integrity of Christian Faith from which liturgy and morality or discipline must be anchored.

EVERY bishop has the DIVINE RESPONSIBILITY to be protector of all the things you seem to claim only the Pope possesses. That is the DOGMATIC defintion of the Vatican Councils. Are you in disagreement with them?

of course, he can intrude to ensure that the liturgy and discipline particular to a Church with apostolic lineage are in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Traditions must be in accordance with that teachings.

He cannot “intrude” except in the matter of Faith or morals, or in the enforcement of a universal canon of the Church. Otherwise, he gives judgment through appeal, his judgment being supreme.

The Petrine ministry is the guarantee of doctrinal consistency of these traditions. It is the duty of the Bishop of Rome as supreme authority in the Church of Christ to guard with diligence and charity what was entrusted by Christ to Peter. He was entrusted to shepherd His flock (John 21:17) that was not entrusted to any other apostles.

You’re preaching to the choir.

No wonder then that the Bishop of Rome exercises that duty even unsolicited.

On a matter of faith, morals and a universal canon, yes. On a matter of local discipline and practice, no.

As an example, the Bishop of Rome exercised that authority in evaluating the validity of Anaphora of Addai and Mari (which belongs to the East Syrian liturgical family) thru its instrumentality–the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith declared that it can be considered valid although the words of institution are not explicitly stated but are present in a dispersed way through prayers of praise, thanksgiving and intercession.

The validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari was present EVEN BEFORE the evaluation of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, you have to admit.

Thanks be to God that you have valid liturgies. But, the notion of validity requires that there be an authority of validation. Since no popes in the entire history of Christendom that invalidated your liturgies, it implies that yours are valid by their implicit approval thru silence–that is the tradition that validates your liturgies.

No. The authority that validates our liturgies is the Tradition itself, not the approval of the Pope. The decisions of Popes are merely one aspect of Tradition, but does not comprise it fully.

If a patriarch by any reason of inability to exercise his duty befitting his position, the Bishop of Rome has (and must have) the authority to intervene; otherwise who?

It falls to the Synod. You seem unaware of the Canon law of the Eastern/Oriental Churches. BTW, who exercises authority in your Latin Church in the interim when there is no Pope? Please try to be fair and apply to the Eastern/Oriental Churches the same consideration you would have for your Latin Church.

If he will not, out of respect to such patriarch, he is neglecting his duty of which he is accountable to Christ.

How funny that you interpret it that way. Rather, he would be adhering to the holy decisions of the Vatican Councils that asserts that he must preserve the ordinary and immediate authority of his brother bishops.

Who in his right mind will sacrifice the salvation of souls for the sake of such human respect or for fear of being criticized as dictator?

The responsibility for souls belongs to every bishop, not just the Pope.:banghead: That you think otherwise is really frustrating!!!

Are you brother?

What are you asking?

(Ironically, if you really dislike the Bishop of Rome bordering to hate, my advice is…punish him by letting him exercise his duty to all the Churches. That’s a very tough job, my brother, for him–so tough that he may even give you episcopal ordination at once to pass on his burden to you. Wanna bet?)

I won’t even attempt to defend myself in the face of such an accusation.

If you have different view, show me biblical passages to prove yours.

We are both Catholic. We will use the same biblical passages. But your interpretation is different from mine.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Michael,

Dear Marduk,
I have stated this before and I will state it again. No one else seems to understand the Papacy as you do, you are a party of one.

Last I looked, my viewpoint was accepted by the majority of those who participated in the “Papal Prerogatives” poll.

I am very soon going to re-request participation in that poll. As you may have noticed, we have gained a good number of new Eastern and Oriental Catholic members since the change (as well as some new Latin Catholic participants). I would be interested to see what the results would be at this point. Because it is a 20+page thread, I am going to sift through it before re-requesting participation in order to be able to direct people to the relevant portions of the thread.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[natsclem]

Dear brother Natsclem

Then we must agree to disagree.

EVERY bishop has the DIVINE RESPONSIBILITY to be protector of all the things you seem to claim only the Pope possesses. That is the DOGMATIC defintion of the Vatican Councils. Are you in disagreement with them?

He cannot “intrude” except in the matter of Faith or morals, or in the enforcement of a universal canon of the Church. Otherwise, he gives judgment through appeal, his judgment being supreme.

On a matter of faith, morals and a universal canon, yes. On a matter of local discipline and practice, no.

The validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari was present EVEN BEFORE the evaluation of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, you have to admit.

No. The authority that validates our liturgies is the Tradition itself, not the approval of the Pope. The decisions of Popes are merely one aspect of Tradition, but does not comprise it fully.

It falls to the Synod. You seem unaware of the Canon law of the Eastern/Oriental Churches. BTW, who exercises authority in your Latin Church in the interim when there is no Pope? Please try to be fair and apply to the Eastern/Oriental Churches the same consideration you would have for your Latin Church.

How funny that you interpret it that way. Rather, he would be adhering to the holy decisions of the Vatican Councils that asserts that he must preserve the ordinary and immediate authority of his brother bishops.

The responsibility for souls belongs to every bishop, not just the Pope.:banghead: That you think otherwise is really frustrating!!!

Blessings,
Marduk

First, i don’t claim that the Pope alone possesses that divine responsibility but that his responsibility/authority is supreme than the bishops and the councils. The patriarchs/bishops share in that authority. The decision of the councils are subject to his approval.

The decree on Eastern Churches explicitly declared that the “all the Churches are entrusted to the supreme pastoral care of the Roman Pontiff as the successor of Saint Peter” as no other apostles were given by Christ the mandate of “Feed my sheep” (three times at that! A trinitarian mandate–three in one!? The Trinity is the Supreme truth of our religion. That makes him the supreme teacher, judge, and protector of Christianity.) If you can show me biblical texts that the same “trinitarian” mandate is given to any other apostle, I will abandon my notion of the supreme authority of the Pope.

If a Eastern rite bishop (for example) is aggrieved and believed that he is unjustly suspended by his patriarch whose decision is ratified by a synod, he should appeal the decision to the Pope. The Pope can intervene and review the case if he is suspended justly or unjustly according to the laws of his particular rite. Of course, the Pope will not be using the canon law for the Latins for rendering judgment for the Easterns; otherwise, that would be ridiculous, at least. Being the supreme pastor, his decision is and should be final. This is just an illustration how the Pope should exercise his duty as supreme pastor to those Churches in communion with his Chair.

No one exercises supreme authority, not even a council, until new Pope is elected. The Cardinal carmelengo is just an administrator not an acting pope. He prepares everything for the election of the new pope.

Of course, i agree to this:
“The traditions of each Church should be preserved intact, while adapting itself to the different necessities of time and place. Each Church has the duty and the right to govern itself according to its traditional discipline. In each Church the rights and privileges of patriarchs must be preserved and, where necessary, restored. But all Churches are entrusted to the supreme pastoral care of the Roman Pontiff as the successor of Saint Peter.”

What I am trying to say is that the authority of the Pope is supreme than that of the patriarchs, bishops, and councils. The parish priest is responsible to his parishioners; the bishop is responsible to the members of his bishopric; and the patriarch to his patriarchate. The Pope is supreme pastor to all–he has the supreme responsibility to all, universal.

It seems to me that we have different definition of “tradition”. How do you define “tradition”?

 

[antgaria]

Dear All,

I wanted to request a prayer for the Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho and those that were in his car. He was kidnapped at gunpoint. The other three in the car were killed. Lord have mercy! The three are martyrs for the faith. Let us pray also for the archbishop’s health and release.

It’s been a long week for me. Almost done. I look forwrd to writing some thoughts this weekend.

God have mercy!

Anthony

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Dear All,

I wanted to request a prayer for the Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho and those that were in his car. He was kidnapped at gunpoint. The other three in the car were killed. Lord have mercy! The three are martyrs for the faith. Let us pray also for the archbishop’s health and release.

It’s been a long week for me. Almost done. I look forwrd to writing some thoughts this weekend.

God have mercy!

Anthony

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080229/wl_nm/iraq_archbishop_dc

 

[Woodstock]

We are praying for him and all Christians who live in fear, as well as for the repose of the souls of those who were killed. There is a thread on this board dedicated to them and another thread on the Prayer board for them.

Lord have mercy!

 

[ronyodish]

According to the canons of any church, no church has any permission to involve in Internal affairs of other Churches unless if there is a full-communion Relation between these churches.

assyrian73,

Your bishop was already suspended by your ACotE, and he elected to seek full communion with my Catholic Church. In such cases for my Church, the general Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches (Canon 898.1) says that my Patriarch with his Synod can receive such a bishop who seeks full communion with my Catholic Church.

Firstly, no one has asked your church opinion whether it was Canonical or not?

We determine for ourselves what to do with someone who seeks full communion with us. A bishop has the right to decide with whom he wants to be in full communion, and Mar Bawai elected to seek it with us after your Church suspended him.

Secondly Fr. Youshia’s involve it was completely wrong and UNCANONICAL according to the Canons of Apostolic Churches.

Mar Bawai has the right to be defended by whomever he wants.

If you can read Arabic Language, go to Baina AL-Nahrain Magazine, and read, the Articles of Late Fr. Yousif Habbi about the Canons and Traditions of the Church of the East regarding Synods and the Supremacy of the See of Saliq-Oqtesphon.

For my Chaldean Catholic Church of the East, my Patriarch is Supreme in his Patriarchate of the Holy See of Babylon, the Holy See of Saliq-Oqtesphon. We also hold the Pope of Rome as Supreme among all the Catholic Patriarchs. Our great historical canonist and teacher in the Church of the East Mar Awdisho Bar Brikha teaches that Rome is the “first see and the head of the patriarchs”.

Your Patriarch lives near Chicago for crying out loud!

What is the link to the article of Fr. Yousif Habbi?

And Finally, It seems you are unaware of the reasons that lead to Suspend Soro?

I’ve read the reasons.

What do you mean by “WE”, it is only Mar Sarhad, what about other Bishops in the Chaldean Church? I challenge you if you bring any other Bishop name in this case except Mar Sarhad. All Bishops in Iraq are against what Mar Sarhad doing and involving in this case.

“We” meaning I as a member of the Chaldean eparchy of St. Peter the Apostle in the Western United States under the bishopric of Episcopa Mar Sarhad Yawsip Jammo. What seriously affects my eparchy affects the rest of my Chaldean Catholic Church of the East. As the canon above says, my Patriarch and his Holy Synod are going to be involved in the situation with Mar Bawai.

Give me a link or article or news that says that all Bishops in Iraq are against what Mar Sarhad is doing.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

Hello all, I’m new here.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I am Narsai, one of the Readers who is within the diocese of His Grace Mar Bawai Soro. I am also one the people in the original signing of the declaration of intent. I was brought upon this site by my dear brother in Christ antgaria. I am hopeful we will continue to have wonderful discussions about our impending union with the Chaldean Rite and ultimately Rome.

We hope and pray that our Bishop, Mar Bawai Soro will continue to fulfill what the Apostle John said, “That they all may be one,” John 17:21. It is our hope that this verse will reverberate throughout the CotE branches and convict them upon that Light to hopefully one day unite and strengthen themselves in a quest to once again evangelize and preach the Gospel of our Father.

-N.

Reader Narsai,

Welcome to the Board

God bless,

Rony

 

[jj2011]

I’d like to welcome Reader Narsai as well, and I hope this forum will be a great experience for him.

“Narsai” is the name of one of the best known poets in the Assyrian Church; I have had occasion to study certain aspects of his work.

A good deal of information about the East Syrian tradition has already been posted on this thread, and it will show that the reader’s bishop, Mar Bawai, made a sound choice in seeking communion with the Roman Church.

 

[veritashunter]

Dear All,

**I wanted to request a prayer for the Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho and those that were in his car. He was kidnapped at gunpoint. The other three in the car were killed. Lord have mercy! The three are martyrs for the faith. Let us pray also for the archbishop’s health and release.

It’s been a long week for me. Almost done. I look forwrd to writing some thoughts this weekend.

God have mercy!

Anthony**

Dear Brother Anthony,

Thank you for your post about Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho. I, myself, heard this news of this tragic event only this afternoon.

Needless to say, I am certain that all Catholics, Orthodox, and other Christians are praying for his soul and his safety. May these three martyrs and the countless saints in heaven pray for us all.

Though, there is one thing that I am sure that Archbishop Rahho would have us all do because of the personal calling of Christ on his heart. It is what separates our True Faith from the faith of the captors themselves.

“Love your enemies.” A rather tough biblical rule to follow, especially in such moments as these, but a rule we must follow no less.

Let us pray in earnest that the presence of the Holy Spirit might descend upon and move the hearts and wills of the kidnappers.

John Paul II forgave his would-be Muslim assasin and sought him out in prison to pray with and for him. And, in like fashion, I am sure that Archbishop Rahho is doing the same even in this time of trial and possible martyrdom. Let us all join with him in praying for the souls of these men, for their forgiveness, and for their conversion.

“What greater love is there than for a man to lay down his life for his fellows…If he strikes your cheek offer him the other…If he takes your cloak offer him your tunic as well…The prayer of a righteous man is most powerful.” All of these passages describe our brother Archbishop Rahho.

So let us deprive the devil of his hate and the angst in which he delights. Let us join spiritually with our brother in Christ Archbishop Paulo Faraj Rahho and the Communion of Saints in this battle.

“If you be only a hearer of the Word and not doer of the Word you are like a man who appreciates his own likeness in a mirror then turns away forgetting his own reflection.”

With charity of heart let us follow the example of our Lord. Let us practice what we preach and be examples of what we teach.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter

 

[antgaria]

VeritasHunter,

Amen. Let us pray and may our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy.

In Christ,
Anthony

 

[assyrian73]

Dear Rony,

In conclusion of what you wrote: visit this link and get my message better and clear.
intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/__P8Y.HTM
so wait untill the case be approved by H.H Pope of Rome. is not upto your H.B Mar Delli to deal with such a case, as long as Mar Bawai was SUSPENDED by the Holy Synod of an Apostolic Church ACOE. if he was not Suspended the case would be much easer to deal with by any Local Bishop like Mar Sarhad.

 

[po18guy]

Needless to say, I am certain that all Catholics, Orthodox, and other Christians are praying for his soul and his safety. May these three martyrs and the countless saints in heaven pray for us all. Though, there is one thing that I am sure that Archbishop Rahho would have us all do because of the personal calling of Christ on his heart. It is what separates our True Faith from the faith of the captors themselves. “Love your enemies.” A rather tough biblical rule to follow, especially in such moments as these, but a rule we must follow no less. Let us pray in earnest that the presence of the Holy Spirit might descend upon and move the hearts and wills of the kidnappers. “What greater love is there than for a man to lay down his life for his fellows…If he strikes your cheek offer him the other…If he takes your cloak offer him your tunic as well…The prayer of a righteous man is most powerful.” All of these passages describe our brother Archbishop Rahho. Yours in Christ,
Veritashunter

For this, I am praying. I hesitated to pray for this in the prayer thread, but it needs to be said: If it be God’s will that the dear Archbishop’s life be required of him in order that the Lord’s will be done, may Archbishop Rahho ascend to eternal glory with the Heavenly Host and all of the Saints, to be in the presence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, I note that the Lord has the best emissary of Christ right in the midst of those with hardened hearts. Our loving God, whose ways are as mysterious as He Himself is, has allowed this evil for the purpose of a greater good. If even one heart is turned from evil , I am sure his excellency would gladly offer his life.

We, of course, fervently pray that his life be spared, as one glance at his loving countenance attests that his work on earth is not yet finished. We are honored and humbled to have such a radiant, Christ-like brother in the faith.

Here is the link to the prayer thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222453

Also, if anyone has a link to an update, at least one prayer warrior has inquired.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, be with all of you. Amen.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

With the death of Archbishop Paulos Rahho, I begin to see what Mar Sarhad Jammo really meant in this article.

We Need Each Other

 

[natsclem]

With the death of Archbishop Paulos Rahho, I begin to see what Mar Sarhad Jammo really meant in this article.

We Need Each Other

My prayers and condolences.

 

[holdencaulfield]

That sounds like a good thing.

 

[veritashunter]

Dear Folks:

I know this is off-of-topic and I try to stay on topic at all times, but I just wanted to share this with you.

The deacon at our Melkite Catholic parish has been keeping me abreast of a situation involving a 43 year old woman with 7 daughters trying to raise them alone. He ex-husband is rather uncharitable to her and she has very little help form anyone. She works in the medical field and is their sole supporter/bread winner.

Just before Pasca in Great Lent the owner of the house she rented sold the property and the new owners evicted her and her 7 daughters from 6 years old to 16 years old with 2 sets of twins in the lot. With no where to go she had to send the children to the father’s house for 3 weeks until she was able to find a home for them to rent.

A good charitable soul (rather poor himself) went out and purchased a small house that was at a bank sale for $30K. We are trying to repair and renovate it for them now so that this family can be reunited. In the meanwhile the father has tried to take her to court to get custody of the children. This woman has done nothing wrong except being poor.

This house is going to take a lot of work and monies that none of us really have at the moment. But we are all doing what we can as fast as we can…each donating materials and time. Painting, repairing plumbing, replacing doors, etc.

Upon reflecting back in the last month about the things that I was content to worry about in my own lifee…well, I feel pretty embarassed. I have a lot compared to this family. In fact, I have more myself that do the 8 of them all together. I have nothing in life to complain about in comparison to these folks.

So, the next time you are dwelling on your own “hard times” consider how bad it could actually be. Consider how difficult life is for some people…in other words, take the time to be grateful for all of the blessings, family, and treasures that the Lord has already bestowed upon you…and forget not all of those others yet awaiting the blessings such as you already possess.

Don’t just pray for their souls…pick up a hammer and a paintbrush and “be the hands of the carpenter” to help them to build a better life.

God bless you all.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter

 

[natsclem]

Dear Folks:

I know this is off-of-topic and I try to stay on topic at all times, but I just wanted to share this with you.

The deacon at our Melkite Catholic parish has been keeping me abreast of a situation involving a 43 year old woman with 7 daughters trying to raise them alone. He ex-husband is rather uncharitable to her and she has very little help form anyone. She works in the medical field and is their sole supporter/bread winner.

Just before Pasca in Great Lent the owner of the house she rented sold the property and the new owners evicted her and her 7 daughters from 6 years old to 16 years old with 2 sets of twins in the lot. With no where to go she had to send the children to the father’s house for 3 weeks until she was able to find a home for them to rent.

A good charitable soul (rather poor himself) went out and purchased a small house that was at a bank sale for $30K. We are trying to repair and renovate it for them now so that this family can be reunited. In the meanwhile the father has tried to take her to court to get custody of the children. This woman has done nothing wrong except being poor.

This house is going to take a lot of work and monies that none of us really have at the moment. But we are all doing what we can as fast as we can…each donating materials and time. Painting, repairing plumbing, replacing doors, etc.

Upon reflecting back in the last month about the things that I was content to worry about in my own lifee…well, I feel pretty embarassed. I have a lot compared to this family. In fact, I have more myself that do the 8 of them all together. I have nothing in life to complain about in comparison to these folks.

So, the next time you are dwelling on your own “hard times” consider how bad it could actually be. Consider how difficult life is for some people…in other words, take the time to be grateful for all of the blessings, family, and treasures that the Lord has already bestowed upon you…and forget not all of those others yet awaiting the blessings such as you already possess.

Don’t just pray for their souls…pick up a hammer and a paintbrush and “be the hands of the carpenter” to help them to build a better life.

God bless you all.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter

Engaging in debates on the truths of Christianity, we oftentimes forget the basics of Christianity–Love of God in Love of neighbor.