Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

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Shlama Rony,

Thank you for that link. I already sent an inquiry to purchase volume 6 of the series. Awesome! 🙂

For us in the Syriac tradition, the Great Fast {Lent} will begin in a little more than an hour. God’s blessings and help in this time of fasting and prayer.

Love,
Anthony
 
I don’t know if that has been mentioned yet (because I haven’t read through the whole thread), but I am wondering if any tension this causes between the ACoE and the CC will actually improve relations between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church (since the amicable relationship between the ACoE and the CC has been a major sticking point in the relations between COC and CC).

Just wondering.

Marduk
 
mardukm said:
I don’t know if that has been mentioned yet (because I haven’t read through the whole thread), but I am wondering if any tension this causes between the ACoE and the CC will actually improve relations between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church (since the amicable relationship between the ACoE and the CC has been a major sticking point in the relations between COC and CC).

Just wondering.

Marduk
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With all due respect, the internecine politics of the COC hierarchy, specifically His Holiness Shenouda IV, and several of his outspoken bishops, I doubt that it’s going to make a whit of difference. It’s rather apparent (tho’ that may be a misperception) that Shenouda is less anti-Catholic than his synod, and that he’s not strong enough in the synod to survive warming relations significantly nor censuring those bishops who openly produce anti-catholic statements ex-cathedra.

I suspect much the same of their relationship with the ACoE; the common declarations of Christology for both the HCC–COC and HCC-ACoE imply strongly that there should be a similar declaration between the COC and ACoE, but that would imply denial that the ACoE is Nestorian, something which obviously would not go over well with HH PpS IV’s Synod, at least based upon their recent published opinions as individuals.
 
Fellow Christian brothers and sisters,

I am an Assyrian. The history of the “Church of the East” stretch back to the 1st century. This Church today has broken up into several parts:
  1. Chaldean Catholic Church of the East
  2. Assyrian Church of the East
  3. Ancient Church of the East
  4. Syriac Catholic Church of the East
  5. Syriac Orthodox Church of the East
Please note that Mar Bawai was “Suspended” and not “Excommunicated” from the Assyrian Church of the East.

And as previously stated, one of the reasons why he was suspended, was because he sought communion with Rome. The odd part to all of this, Mar Dinkha, the patriarch of the ACOE signed the "common christological declaration towards “Full Communion” in the Vatican in 1994!

I’ll be happy to respond to any questions.

God Bless.
 
I am shocked. I am floored by it. I was having a conversation about ecumenism with a fellow Catholic and I commented that for ecumenism to work we not only had to heal the wounds between each church and the Catholic church but also between each of the seperated churches with each other since they obviously couldn’t just enter into communion with the Latin Rite but all of the other Rites as well. I commented that I thought a full and complete reunion with the Assyrian Church would happen first. I also commented that I thought Russia would happen last but let me hope that I am wrong. I said this almost as sort of a joke know really knowing what I was talking about but I mentioned that perhaps the reunions will happen in the same order that the breakups happened from farthest east to west. I can’t believe I was right, or partially right. I even sort of had a dream about it but I never expected it to come about in a matter of days. I am so happy for this. Let us all give them all of our support and love as much as we can. A good way to do that is to visit the web site for the Catholic Near East Welfare Association. Deo Gratias.
 
When we think about this, it could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it is handled. Best solution, get the three parties to the table and work it out. On the one hand, something is happening which means that we have an opporitunity. On the other hand, from what I read here, it looks like the Assyrian Church will be offended just because this group asked to join. I hope that is not the case. I don’t know what the answer is here but there probably needs to be some give and take on all sides and we just might get all of the Church of the East, Chaldean, Assyrian and Ancient; to get back together and be in communion with Rome which would be best for everyone involved. Forgiveness should be asked for and given, we should all look past greivences and find the best solution for the faith and the flock.

In regards to the Coptic or Byzantine reaction if the entire Church of the East came back into full Communion with Rome, this again is the Catholic church having to play not only our own hand but also go to bat for those that are not part of us. How do we get the Byzantines and the Coptics to accept each other? How do we get the Armenians and Assyrains to accept each other. How do we get the Byzantine, Syrian and Catholic patriarchs of Antioch to work in peace as one united Church?

One big thing that we all can do is foster greater communication between each other by trying to learn each other’s native language. I have often said that every Catholic should be at least bilingual in his vernacular as well as liturgical language but we should also support the Eastern Churches by learning their languages too.

It seem to me, no matter how happy I am that these men want to rejoin the Catholic church that perhaps their real mission should be to stay in the Church of the East and eventually bring the whole of the Church of the East with them. But perhaps circumstances do not allow that. We should not refuse them, especailly not the laity, but we should also make very sure that everything is genuine.

I will pray for a good outcome from this and I hope everyone will join me in that effort. I will pray that this leads to greater unity not just with Rome but also with the Church of the East. Let us have peace and let us have unity. If there are issues between these two factions of the Church of the East let us have reconciliation and understanding.
 
The_Assyrian said:
Fellow Christian brothers and sisters,

I am an Assyrian. The history of the “Church of the East” stretch back to the 1st century. This Church today has broken up into several parts:
  1. Chaldean Catholic Church of the East
  2. Assyrian Church of the East
  3. Ancient Church of the East
  4. Syriac Catholic Church of the East
  5. Syriac Orthodox Church of the East
Please note that Mar Bawai was “Suspended” and not “Excommunicated” from the Assyrian Church of the East.

And as previously stated, one of the reasons why he was suspended, was because he sought communion with Rome. The odd part to all of this, Mar Dinkha, the patriarch of the ACOE signed the "common christological declaration towards “Full Communion” in the Vatican in 1994!

I’ll be happy to respond to any questions.

God Bless.
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Welcome!

Would you please explain to me the distinction between Syriac/Syrian and Assyrian? I understand that it is a controversial point, but I don’t understand what the controversy it.

The current Chaldean Catholic patriarch apparently said that he believes there is a difference between the two and the Assyrians who are entering communion are saying they desire their own traditions to be maintained. I guessed earlier that the anaphora or Addai and Mari could be one of them, but Sub-deacon Anthony said they’ve been using an explicit anaphora in order to show their desire for unity with the Catholic Church. What is it, then, that distinguishes an Assyrian?
 
The Assyrians are the East Syrians. The Syrians are the west Syrians. They both speak a dialect of Aramaic know as East Syrian and West Syrian that are mutually intelligable but not exaclty the same. Their Bibles are 90% the same as well as most of their liturgy but the few differences that exist are big enough to warrent calling them a different Rite.

The Assyrians split from Rome much ealier then the Syrians did. However, even with that said, there is an interesting history here that is so interesting that it should be noted. The Church of the East split in two at one point and one side stayed independent and the other entered into communion with Rome. Later on, they part that was in Communion split again from Rome but maybe about 25% stayed with Rome. So then we had Three. The part that had stayed independent split again with 75% joining the part that was still in communion with Rome and the other 25% rejoining the part that had split from Rome for the second time.

Thus we see that the current Chaldean Catholic church had a quarter of itself always in communion with Rome from the first reunion and the current Church of the East has a quarter of itself that was never in communion with Rome.

Neither of these churches were ever in communion with the Syrian Orthodox Church (oriental orthodoxy) but the Catholic part of the Church is in communion with the Syrian Catholic Church obviously.

As far as I can tell, they Church of the East uses levened bread where as the Chaldeans have choosen to use unleavened bread. They also have different rules for celibacy of priest but this was all decided at the local synod without interferance from Rome.

Both the Syrian Orthodox Church and Syrian Catholic Church use leavened bread. The Maronite Church, with is part of the same general tradition uses unleavened bread. I have seen where some people call this a latinization where others insist that this was the original way and see unleavened bread as a Melkite (Byzantine) invention. I do not know personally but I fully support the Eastern Catholic Church’s freedom to choose one or the other as they see fit for their own local church.
 
Peace,

Claudius knows quite a lot about our churches and has clarified many points.
Best solution, get the three parties to the table and work it out. On the one hand, something is happening which means that we have an opporitunity. On the other hand, from what I read here, it looks like the Assyrian Church will be offended just because this group asked to join.
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The Pro-Oriente non-official dialogues was basically a way for the theologians and bishops of the three parties to be able to converse and work towards an understanding of things. There were several stages of talks which were to be followed by an official meeting and agreement. The talks went through history, Christology, Sacraments, and then when an agreement was just about made on Sacraments, the talks abruptly ended.

In fairness to the Catholic Church, it has throughout maintained a charitable view towards all the Church of the East branches. This charity can be seen in an interview that was granted by Cardinal Kasper after a meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch of the ACoE. The full content of it can be found at:

zenit.org/article-19948?l=english

I will quote the part that concerns this split and declaration of intent that this topic is about:
Q: What happened to the dialogue after 2004? What fears and obstacles does Benedict XVI refer to in his address to the patriarch?
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Cardinal Kasper: In 2005, the Assyrian Church unexpectedly decided to suspend the dialogue and not to sign the document which had been prepared on sacramental life. During a meeting in November 2005, moreover, the Synod of the Assyrian Church decided to suspend one of its members, a bishop, who had been among the architects of the dialogue with the Catholic Church and had contributed significantly to its successful progress.
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The Catholic Church cannot intervene in the internal affairs of another Church, but deeply regrets this unfortunate development. Nobody is helped by further divisions in a community which already faces so many challenges, as I mentioned before.
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These further divisions also cause difficulties for our ecumenical dialogue, since they are improperly used by some Assyrian media to cast doubt on the Catholic Church and its true intentions toward the Assyrian Church; such polemics should be brought to an end. We hope and pray that it will be possible to overcome these problems. Serenity should return and eventually allow the Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue to resume its activities.
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This is the sense of the appeal Benedict XVI addressed to Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV and to all concerned, so that together we may find the best solution.
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The result of this was that Cardinal Kasper was publicly berated by the very same media that he mentioned, with one of the ACoE bishop saying that he would write a letter to the Cardinal. To be fair and impartial, the letter is found at:

69.73.140.219/~assy/Church_News_PDF_Files/KasperInterviewResponse.pdf

So you see, the Catholic Church is in the unenviable position of seeking the best of all parties with a heart of charity even in situations where there is much emotion and even hatred involved. It is made even harder by the passionate middle-eastern temperament.

In regards to differences in liturgy, there are enough that we want to safeguard our traditions… after all, after so many years of ecclesiastic separation, differences happen.

Our use of leavened bread also involves a Sacrament for us: Holy Leaven,or Melka. This is what our Mar Abdisho says about the Holy Leaven:
The holy and blessed Apostles, Thomas and Bartholomew of the Twelve, and Adi and Mari of the Seventy, who discipled the East, committed to all the Eastern Churches a Holy Leaven, to be kept for the perfecting of the administration of the Sacrament of our Lord’s Body until His coming again.
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In Christ,
Anthony
 
Welcome, brother Anthony! Glad to see a CoE member here.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
"Please note that Mar Bawai was “Suspended” and not “Excommunicated” from the Assyrian Church of the East.

And as previously stated, one of the reasons why he was suspended, was because he sought communion with Rome. The odd part to all of this, Mar Dinkha, the patriarch of the ACOE signed the “common christological declaration towards “Full Communion” in the Vatican in 1994!
I’ll be happy to respond to any questions.”

God Bless.
Dear Mr. the Assyrian,

No wonder you are supporter of the former bishop Bawai soro who was suspended canonically by the Holy Synod of the ACOE. However, the reason you mentioned that ex-bishop was suspended is not true, but for you and others they want the reasons behind the case of suspended ARE: 1- Disobedience to the Patriarch and Holy Synod.

2- RE- Deed the properties of three churches in California-USA under his name which the ACOE filled court against him in 2005, in November 2007 ACOE won the court. assyrianchurchnews.com/Court%20Documents/Decision.pdf

3- Around 300 – 500 members of his parishes singed a statement to the Patriarch asking him to put an end to what ex-bishop is involving in.
4- for not accepting the options that put forward by the Holy Synod. zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/11.19.05/index_sat.php#TheLighthouse.
 
assyrian73 said:
However, the reason you mentioned that ex-bishop was suspended is not true, but for you and others they want the reasons behind the case of suspended ARE: 1- Disobedience to the Patriarch and Holy Synod.
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What was the disobedience?
2- RE- Deed the properties of three churches in California-USA under his name which the ACOE filled court against him in 2005, in November 2007 ACOE won the court. assyrianchurchnews.com/Court%20Documents/Decision.pdf
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%between%
It seems to me that filing a court case on someone is a result of problems, not a problem in itself. What is it you believe Mar Bawai did wrong to merit suspension or excommunication?
3- Around 300 – 500 members of his parishes singed a statement to the Patriarch asking him to put an end to what ex-bishop is involving in.
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He was suspended because some people signed a petition for him to stop talking about unity?
4- for not accepting the options that put forward by the Holy Synod. zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/11.19.05/index_sat.php#TheLighthouse.
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So he was suspended because he kept talking about unity?
 
Dear Assyrian73,

In regards to the nature of the decision of the Synod, I can only label it as “uncanonical.” An expert in the Canon laws of our Church, and a dear and revered priest, Fr. Yoshia, a priest in the Chaldean Catholic Church wrote in defense of Mar Bawai. The contents of it is found at:

assyriatimes.com/engine/downloads/sanaaffidavit.pdf

Dear Woodstock, you asked:
He was suspended because some people signed a petition for him to stop talking about unity?
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It is very unfortunate, but there is a very large amount of bigotry within our people against the Catholic Church and our brothers in the Chaldean Church. It is propogated by the media that we have which spread this hate for various purposes. This problem was refered to in the interview given by Cardinal Kasper.

As the case may be, I think that this is part of the “world” not liking unity… not wanting brothers {and sisters} in Christ to sit down and charitably {in sense of caritas} talk about why we are split and how we can repair those wounds… this takes a lot of humility and any pride and arrogance works against such a process.

One word of warning to all… I have seen many of the Assyrian forums degrade into a situation where polemics and accusations are hurled against one side or the other. I have yet to get involved in any of these forums because of this sense of antipathy that is prevalent in these forums. I really do not want to see this site fall into the same quagmire. It serves no good end.

As the initial posting on this thread was on the decision to seek full communion with the Catholic Church, we should talk about that and what that entails. As I mentioned previously, it means approaching each other with an honest and humble disposition. And if our beliefs, and those of our forefathers’, can be reconciled and there is not a compromise in those major tenets that we hold dear, I can only see a need to go forward towards full communion.

Socio-political factors, personal concerns and pride, and other worldly factors should not be allowed to interfere in the process. The world will not love this and those who work to fulfill this repairing of wounds. The world will not love us because we do not belong in it, otherwise it would have loved us as its own.

Peace,
Anthony
 
What was the disobedience?

His diocese the Western California went through a massive problems such as financial, involving in political disputes and taking side with political ideology so that when the Holy synod conducted in Oct, 2005 one of the topic problem to be solved was ex- bishop Soro’s diocese, the suggestion was to have two Bishops joining him in dealing with those who singed the petition against him, but unfortunately he refuses this suggestion which was put by the Head of Holy Synod H.H Mar Dinkha. This is the first breach of canon, he did not obey the Patriarch.( imagine this happened with one bishop under leadership of Pope). Secondly, he wrote two letters to H.H Mar Dinkha accusing him with “neglecting his duties towards the Church, taking out Jesus Christ from the Church”, this Breach. But despite all these accusations Mar Dinkha was to forgive him, but he reject any solution, so the holy synod give him three options: The decisions of the Holy Synod are that you select one of these three:
 
  1. The Holy Synod has been informed that there is a great need for a bishop to assume the responsibility of managing the dioceses of Iran and Russia, and we are asking you to assume this responsibility as soon as possible, or,
  2. Yosip Parish in San Jose between you and the parish. This suspension is for a period of two years and you shall be a suspended bishop. This West California Diocese will be managed temporarily by a temporary committee consisting of priests and church members of that parish selected by two bishops who will represent the Holy Synod under the guidance of His Holiness the Patriarch and with the advice of the priests of Western California Diocese. It is also expected from your grace that during this period of two years you will not interfere in the management of that diocese or any other diocese and also:
    a. You will not write letters of blame or complaint or talk against the decisions of the Holy Synod as the Cannon laws instruct.
b. You will not hold meetings about this subject or other subjects related to the church affairs

c. You will not appear on radio or TV programs or deliver any speeches in any media. Or other activities that may stir debates or division among the followers of the church in the world.

d. You will cooperate with the representatives of the Holy Synod by providing them with all accounting books and deeds of the properties of the Western California diocese.

e. You have no permission to communicate with other churches about subjects that are relative to the interrelationship of the Assyrian church of the East and other churches. You shall not take part in any programs after the decisions taken by the Holy Synod.

f. The Assyrian Church of the East will pay you a monthly salary as it has been recommended by the temporary committee of the diocese. You shall have permission to participate in all church services of the Assyrian church of the East and you shall not have the permission to ordain anyone. During your suspension, if you do not comply with the points outlined in paragraph A thru F, then your bishopric authority will be suspended.
3. If you do not comply with one of the two points mentioned in paragraph 1 and 2, then the Holy Synod regretfully asks you to submit your resignation from the office of the bishop all in all.
 
assyrian73 said:
A simple question: why should every Independent church like ACOE join in full communion with Catholic Church? If not, does it matter? Yes, why?
For a brief history of ACOE visit: assyrianchurch.com.au/historyintro.htm
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From Christ, in the Gospel of John Chapter 17:

"20]
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22] The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. "

To be disunited is to go against Christ’s own prayer for His people. It’s not a question of submission, but of unity. If there is no theological divide (and there seems to be none left between our Churches) then the only excuse for remaining seperate is the ironing out of details and prerogatives, and that is only a temporary thing. If there is theological unity, as both our Churches have agreed that there is, then there can no longer be a permanent seperation without grave sin against God. 🙂

This isn’t just a call for the other Churches to unite with Rome, but also a call for Rome to work on reuniting the Churches. That is why Rome has been such a leader in talks of unity among Apostolic Christians; it’s the shared duty of all of us.

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear Ghosty
You are 100% right by quoting from the Holy Gospel, but I will put it for you like this, why should every church unite with Catholic Church and be submit to the supremacy of pope? It is never said in gospel any reference by Jesus Christ to submit every body to one Person (Pope)? I am with should every church I amen local church as whole church submit with each other to the one Lordship JESUS CHRIST, it does not matter if each church especially the Apostolic churches submit to each other. Let every church have its own Sovereignty but in mean time be in FRATERNAL relationship together. In each Apostolic Church there is a unique tradition which is one of the Apostles preach and Establish the Church, and that Apostle become the Head of that Church, so why not all these church be in good relationship symbolizing the Apostles Relation with each other. In Gospel you never see that Jesus Christ appointed any Apostle as the Leader or First. Only we see that Jesus rebuked the Zebedee’s Request for demanding a special place in the Kingdom. I am not against any Relation that considers the love and Chastity or Fraternal, no, in our Tradition (ACOE) you never find rejection of any Person that has baptized in the name of Holy Trinity from our services.
 
Communion Hymn of Mar Ephrem

O Lord Jesus, O adorable King
by whose passion has conquered death.

O Son of God who promised us
a full new life in his kingdom.

Protect us from all misfortune;
let peace and mercy dwell among us.

At your return we will arise
and will meet you in eternal joy.

We praise your name with “hosanna”
for your goodness towards our race.

Your mercies abounded upon us
your love has shone on us mortals.

By your pardon, our sins are erased;
glory to you for all your gifts.

Your Majesty always be blessed
for your pardon and your mercy.

Make us worthy by your goodness
to thank and adore you as our God

and offer you, at every time,
eternal praise; amen, amen.
 
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