Assyrians Elect To Enter Into Full Communion W/ Catholic Church

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Fellow Christian brothers and sisters,

I am an Assyrian. The history of the “Church of the East” stretch back to the 1st century. This Church today has broken up into several parts:
  1. Chaldean Catholic Church of the East
  2. Assyrian Church of the East
  3. Ancient Church of the East
  4. Syriac Catholic Church of the East
  5. Syriac Orthodox Church of the East
Please note that Mar Bawai was “Suspended” and not “Excommunicated” from the Assyrian Church of the East.

And as previously stated, one of the reasons why he was suspended, was because he sought communion with Rome. The odd part to all of this, Mar Dinkha, the patriarch of the ACOE signed the "common christological declaration towards “Full Communion” in the Vatican in 1994!

I’ll be happy to respond to any questions.

God Bless.
Welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here. I can only pray that full communion, while displeasing to many, remains pleasing to God. Unfortunately, ego enters into much of this chronic division within the Body of Christ. Of course, it was the greatest ego of all, that of Lucifer, which lead him to reject God and move away from Him.

But, in typical Heavenly fashion, the Master of Humility, Jesus Christ, restores to us that which was lost to the ego of the evil one.

Again, welcome and we look forward to learning about the much older Eastern churches as well as our brothers and sisters in the faith.

Christ’s peace.
 
Dear Ghosty
You are 100% right by quoting from the Holy Gospel, but I will put it for you like this, why should every church unite with Catholic Church and be submit to the supremacy of pope? It is never said in gospel any reference by Jesus Christ to submit every body to one Person (Pope)? I am with should every church I amen local church as whole church submit with each other to the one Lordship JESUS CHRIST, it does not matter if each church especially the Apostolic churches submit to each other. Let every church have its own Sovereignty but in mean time be in FRATERNAL relationship together. In each Apostolic Church there is a unique tradition which is one of the Apostles preach and Establish the Church, and that Apostle become the Head of that Church, so why not all these church be in good relationship symbolizing the Apostles Relation with each other. In Gospel you never see that Jesus Christ appointed any Apostle as the Leader or First. Only we see that Jesus rebuked the Zebedee’s Request for demanding a special place in the Kingdom. I am not against any Relation that considers the love and Chastity or Fraternal, no, in our Tradition (ACOE) you never find rejection of any Person that has baptized in the name of Holy Trinity from our services.
The role of Rome is actually upheld in your own Church’s ancient Canons, according to posters on this thread. That aside, it’s not a question of supremacy and submission, but fraternal relationships; the thing is that fraternal relationships in an ecclesial setting means someone takes the role of leader at some points. This is true in your Church with the Patriarch, who is the brother of the other Bishops but also leads them when needed, and it is true of Communion between Churches as well.

I would ask you this, however. You say that Communion between Churches is right and true to Scripture: who is your Church in Communion with? I don’t intend that as a mean-spirited question at all, but as a serious consideration to reflect on.

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear Assyrian73,

My immediate reaction to your posts was quite uncharitable, so I decided to step away a bit. Thanks to Chaldean, Ghosty and po18guy for putting things back into mood. Chaldean’s posting of Mar Ephrem’s hymn made me sit back, think, and pray a bit.

I’d like to add one other prayer before continuing… one that helped me to approach this in a more charitable fasion… a prayer from St. Francis:
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
Code:
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Code:
Amen.
Ghosty has hit the issue of full communion right on the head. In the Assyrian CotE, there is a strong sense of hierarchy. This hierarchy among the bishops of the ACoE comes from the fraternal relationship between the brother bishops. It is established in the Love of Christ. That is what allows the bishops to sit and realize that in this hierarchy, there must be a head.

Looking back to our history, we see that the first person in the CotE to take the position of Catholicos over his brother bishops was Mar Papa bar Gaggai. He actually made it very matter of factly, but resistance was made by his brother bishops, including being sharply rebuked {from what I’ve read} by the bishop who had taken part in the ordination of Mar Papa. Mar Papa was stopped, and upon appealing to the “Western” Christians, his claim was supported by the hierarchy outside of the Persian Empire.

In this event we see 2 things.

First, Mar Papa’s claim that there was need of a head, in this case within the Persian Church, was validated. Although the bishops were brothers, a hierarchy was to be instated and this hierarchy would eventually lead to a Patriarchy when the isolation from the West would require such a step. This need for a head in what is after all a fraternal relation is even the very same thing that is upheld by Mar AbdIsho when he states in his canons about the rights of patriarch as above the other bishops in his church, and of the Pope of Rome as above the other Patriarchs.

Let’s be frank, one cannot eat his cake and have it too. One cannot say “there is a need for a head here, and uhm but oh… well… we don’t need a head there.” If one is to wed one model of ecclesiastic communion, one cannot suddenly throw it away and say it is not needed when it seems to be detrimental to themselves. Personal pride is what often stands in the way of unity, that is why talks towards unity should be done with truth, charity {love}, and humility.

The second thing that we see is that the CotE was never meant to be “alone”, out of communion with the rest of the world. Even at such an early date as this, the need to appeal to sister churches was seen. This is what being in communion gives: accountability, in that brother Christians can review, suggest, and either speak against, or support as valid actions taken within the church. After all, rebuke is a very Christian way of approaching brothers. St. Paul rebuked St. Peter. In the bond of Christianity, being made in and through the Holy Spirit, a simple rebuke goes a long way.

The Pope’s primacy among Patriarchs is well attested to in our CotE tradition. What that exactly entails, I’m not even near to understanding everything to be able to try to differentiate what he is entitled to or not. I approach this in a way of looking at what the Pope and his congregation of faithful state that they have rights to, and what the CotE {especially the Chaldean Catholic} tradition has traditionally allowed.

More importantly, I approach this with a Christian attitude. This means, I see what the Pope writes, or has written, says, what he preaches, and DOES. I see a man beset on all sides by the world attacking him for speaking plainly, holding on to the Truth, especially of the tradition he is successor to, and being honest. He keeps guard of the orthodoxy of his Church. And I can only pray, that as head of the patriarchs, he continues to zealously guard the Truth and the Church. I pray that Christ not allow him to fall to heresy, and that our Lord safeguard the promise He made us that the gates of hell will not be able to overcome His Church. I pray for peace, tranquility and unity among all the faithful. This latter is after all in our Liturgy. And I can make this prayer, even while not in full communion with the Roman See.

Thank you everyone reading this thread for their prayers for peace and unity. Please continue to pray for us.

Peace and all good,
Anthony
 
Let’s be frank, one cannot eat his cake and have it too. One cannot say “there is a need for a head here, and uhm but oh… well… we don’t need a head there.” If one is to wed one model of ecclesiastic communion, one cannot suddenly throw it away and say it is not needed when it seems to be detrimental to themselves. Personal pride is what often stands in the way of unity, that is why talks towards unity should be done with truth, charity {love}, and humility. More importantly, I approach this with a Christian attitude. This means, I see what the Pope writes, or has written, says, what he preaches, and DOES. I see a man beset on all sides by the world attacking him for speaking plainly, holding on to the Truth, especially of the tradition he is successor to, and being honest. He keeps guard of the orthodoxy of his Church. Anthony
I think a few fail to realize that the Pope answers to God for all Christians, not just Latin Rite Catholics. Thus, he is very concerned about the disunity in Christendom, and very desirous of unity. I notice that the Holy Spirit seems to choose the one who will heal and not divide, appeal and not reject. Accomplishing all of this while keeping the faith pure requires the great assistance of the Holy Spirit. Such a burden explains why in earlier times, when choosing a successor to the Pope came up, the Bishops had to be locked into a room lest they, like Jonah, run away from the responsibility.

Christ’s peace.
 
The role of Rome is actually upheld in your own Church’s ancient Canons, according to posters on this thread.
That’s correct; the canons about Rome’s primacy, attributed to St. Maruthas, are found in canonists of the Church of the East such as Archbishop Elias of Damascus, Ibn al-Taiyib, and Ebedjesu of Sobi, who writes in his nomocanon:

It has been agreeable to the ecumenical synod that there be four fathers in all the world, like the four evangelists and the four rivers and also the four corners of the world, as the wise men of the world themselves also say, that there are four elements of which the world is composed. Now let their head be that of Rome, according to the precept of the apostles, which they established in their canons… Whoever transgress these precepts, the ecumenical synod subjects him to anathema. [Syriac text and Latin translation in: A. Mai, ed., *Scriptorum Veterum Nova Collectio, Rome 1838, Vol. X, 154]
 
The misunderstandings and even animosity whatever its cause has caused problems all over the world. What is most sad is that it puts a block to common relief efforts for those suffering in Iraq. There is much I could say but I would rather point to an organization in this country comprised of Assyrians, Orthodox, and Chaldean Catholics and have hopes for future unity of the Church in Iraq.

Iraqi Christian Relief has a website iraqichristianrelief.org/ Juliana Taimoorazz is one of their leaders who I met last fall and who, along with others from the committee were interviewed on “Light of the East”. The broadcasts are archived at www.byzantinecatholic.com Go to radio and click on the broadcasts numbered 170 and 171.

Here is just a portion of a recent email sent me by Juliana

Very few of you might know that the Iraqi Christians have come under attack for their religion and faith. Our kids have been boiled and sent to their mothers on a rice platter. Our young women have been kidnapped, raped, and killed. Our nuns have been raped and our priests have been kidnapped, beheaded, cut into pieces, and sent to their relatives in bags. Our churches have been bombed and young men crucified, YES CRUCIFIED in public. All of this has forced many to flee for their lives to Iraq’s northern region or to its neighboring countries, simply to find themselves faced with brutal living conditions in cemeteries and in tents without any clean water, food, or medicine. They endure all of this for their religion.

‘Iraqi Christian Relief Committee’ has been organized for three main reasons:
  • Raise awareness of the American people of such atrocities
  • Ask for the American People’s prayers
  • Raise and deliver funds to the the displaced Iraqi Christians through the Assyrian Aid Society (www.assyrianaid.org) a reputable organization which has aided the Assyrians since 1991. The Assyrian Aid Society was founded after the first Gulf war to bring aid to the displaced Christians of Iraq.
If Christians who share a common dogma can’t get together even when pressed on every side what hope is there for the rest of us?

Carson D. Lauffer
 
Our kids have been boiled and sent to their mothers on a rice platter. Our young women have been kidnapped, raped, and killed. Our nuns have been raped and our priests have been kidnapped, beheaded, cut into pieces, and sent to their relatives in bags. Our churches have been bombed and young men crucified, YES CRUCIFIED in public. All of this has forced many to flee for their lives to Iraq’s northern region or to its neighboring countries, simply to find themselves faced with brutal living conditions in cemeteries and in tents without any clean water, food, or medicine. They endure all of this for their religion.
Lord, have mercy.

Rony
 
To all of those Roman Catholics that might be reading this posting I wanted to share my own experience in this area of discussion and encourage all of you to learn more about our diverse Catholic Tradition and the beauty found within its variety of liturgical expression. I was born into the Protestant Christian tradition (all disconnected from one another liturgically…denomination to denomination). At age nine I was baptized in the Roman Church and later migrated to the Melkite Catholic Church (Eastern Rite/Syrians-Lebanese-Egyptians primarily constitute this church). And I must say that it has been an absolute blessing to become one with them in the Celebration of the Divine Liturgy (the Mass).

I am currently even studying Arabic (part-time and poorly self-taught) and know Ronyodish personally. He speaks English, Arabic, Aramaic (as is his tradition), and also studies Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, respectively. He is also a practicing Chaldean with whom I have celebrated the Divine Liturgy with on several Sundays. He is very orthodox and faithful in his understanding of the Faith and its many middle eastern derivative churchs. I have learned so much from him in a very short time.

In the past I have seen how greater orthodoxy has sometimes been reduced (within itself) to an argument over a sort of sacramental Protestantism and it always distresses my heart. Russians vs. Armenians, Greeks vs. Coptics, etc. This is why we must all submit to the Church and a single authority. It is not because the Pope is impecable…rather it is because the Holy Office he occupies is infallible…it is not that the Pope is perfect in any manner…rather it is because our human nature is so devisive as men (be it even ever so well-intentioned). Let us all pray (regardless of individual Christian tradition) for the full union of Christ’s universal, all encompassing bride, the Church.

So many times religious chat forums lead to liturgical stone throwing and theological name calling. Catholic vs. Protestant vs. Orthodox. With that in mind I just thought it was important to share the goodness and glory of my fellowship with Ronyodish as we have always seen each other as two Catholics; different in our particular tradition but fully united in a greater single universal Tradition. I am not seen as Irish and he is not seen as Iraqi. That is the glory of “one holy Catholic and apostolic Church”. It isn’t Rome or Alexandria or Antioch or Constantinople that matters…what matters is that we are struggling through as Catholics. Rony or I (or you) can go to any Catholic Church in the world and fully participate in all 7 sacraments equally whether it be in the (soon to be reconciled) Assyrian, Melkite, Roman, Chaldean, Coptic, Romanian, Maronite, or Ruthenian rite church because we are all in full communion with the entire body of the Church. And I am proud to say that I have experienced most of these liturgical celebrations myself learning the true “universal nature” of our Church. The west use unleavened bread symbolizing the Last Supper and the Passover Sader while the east uses leavened bread to present the glory of the resurrection. Neither has its full meaningg without the other. It isn’t one or the other but rather both together that complete the Liturgy and the Good News.

Rome is where Peter died (“first among the apostles” as Sacred Scripture states) and his episcopy was passed to the next in line at that place. If it had been Detroit the Motor City would look a lot different…if it had been Cleveland the Rock and Roll City would have looked much different… the same for Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem, etc. but it wasn’t in these places that the repository of Peter’s pastorate and episcopy rested. He died in Rome and the power and authority of his “Holy Office” as supreme pastor of the Church and his “Christian Witness” (and that of St. Paul and countless others) led to the first steps in the transformation from pagan Rome (the city and the empire) into Christianity’s great triumph over the past. It wasn’t the man of Peter…it was the Man in Peter who was Christ Jesus (the Word Made Man and the Word made flesh).

If not for all of that and the ministry of the Catholic Church Ronyodish and I would have probably never met…let alone be friends (from opposite sides of the world) united in One Faith standing next to each other in worship of God. That, my brothers and sisters, is called GRACE. And I thank God for this unity for “do we not all partake of one loaf”. May we all seek it and let us all pray for each other at all times in all places.

Like Rony said, “Ya Rubburham” (Arabic for “Lord have mercy”)

Salem wa hob, Inshallah! (Peace and love, God willing!)

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
veritashunter,

It’s good to talk to you my friend!

It is so awesome being a Catholic! I currently have no Chaldean parishes within driving distance from me (nearest one is about 5 hours), and so I get to attend the various Latin, Greek, and Maronite parishes in the area.

I get to be nourished by the Holy Word and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ in the various traditions not of my upbringing! Why? Because I am a Catholic Christian, a member of the Universal Church! I am not isolated from my brothers and sisters in Christ. 🙂

This is the beauty, the awesomeness of the Holy Church redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!

Thank you for your compliments and wonderful post 🙂

God bless you,

Rony
 
veritashunter,

It’s good to talk to you my friend!

It is so awesome being a Catholic! I currently have no Chaldean parishes within driving distance from me (nearest one is about 5 hours), and so I get to attend the various Latin, Greek, and Maronite parishes in the area.

I get to be nourished by the Holy Word and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ in the various traditions not of my upbringing! Why? Because I am a Catholic Christian, a member of the Universal Church! I am not isolated from my brothers and sisters in Christ. 🙂

This is the beauty, the awesomeness of the Holy Church redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!

Thank you for your compliments and wonderful post 🙂

God bless you,

Rony
Likewise, as with brother Veritashunter, you have given a wonderful post, brother Rony.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk
 
veritashunter,

It’s good to talk to you my friend!

It is so awesome being a Catholic! I currently have no Chaldean parishes within driving distance from me (nearest one is about 5 hours), and so I get to attend the various Latin, Greek, and Maronite parishes in the area.

I get to be nourished by the Holy Word and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ in the various traditions not of my upbringing! Why? Because I am a Catholic Christian, a member of the Universal Church! I am not isolated from my brothers and sisters in Christ. 🙂

This is the beauty, the awesomeness of the Holy Church redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!

Thank you for your compliments and wonderful post 🙂

God bless you,

Rony
Rony,

Let me know when you can make it to Columbus some time… Have you been to the Ruthenian parish here? The Melkites have a mission in Zanesville also…

And the Maronites have a mission here also…

Sorry no Chaldean love yet here in Columbus. Who knows, maybe one day!
 
Thanks be to God! As I was raised in both the Greek Orthodox and the Catholic Churches (not knowing the difference until I was an adult) I am so grateful that I am living in an age when our unity is being made visible. I continually pray that we will be united, East and West, and this is one step. God bless them in California for their courage. monalisamlb
 
Thank you Marduk 🙂

ASimpleSinner, if I ever get to visit Columbus, I’ll be sure to let you know, and so I can check out the churches in the area. The only Melkite Divine Liturgy that I’ve sometimes been to here in the Eastern part of the U.S. is the one in Akron. This is where I met veritashunter. I usually attend the various parishes that are very close by me, or sometimes I go to nearby Pittsburgh.

Many of the Chaldean churches are in Michigan, but it would be nice to have one or two in Ohio. Maybe in the future, if enough Chaldeans settle in this state.

God bless,

Rony
 
Mar Bawai Soro, former bishop of Western California, has been out of communion with his parent church, headed by Mar Dinkha for some time now (but I don’t know if it has been a year). So this group is flying solo.

I remember something about Mar Dinkha reassigning Mar Bawai Soro to Iran as a discipline, and he refused to go.

The separation occured long enough ago for the court case to reach a conclusion in the State of California, and all of the real property has been turned over to the Church of the East which continues to hold Masses, apparently. The Chaldean Catholic church could see an influx of new members in the USA. I don’t know if this disaffected group numbers in the thousands.

One wonders what they will think of the newly refurbished Chaldean Qurbono.

Perhaps some of the Chaldean posters here can give us updates on how it is going from time to time. 🙂

Michael
This seems very strange.
As I recall, The Chaldean Catholic Church is the reformed branch of the Nestorian Church of Assyria, which has renounced the Nestorian heresy, and become Uniate with Rome.
What is now happening?
Has another branch of the Nestorian Church of Assyria renounced Nestorius, or are they coming to Rome with Nestorius still respected?
Should we now take a new and more compassionate look at what Nestorius thought was a good explanation of how Christ could die on the Cross.
For if G_d died on the cross, the with G_d dead, how could there be a resurrection.
But further, surely G_d is immortal, and cannot die.
Surely this is not a matter of morals.
It may be seen as a matter of faith, but it verges upon matters of logic, and thus science.
Such matters are not the business of infallible teaching.
At least, that is my understanding.
 
This seems very strange.
As I recall, The Chaldean Catholic Church is the reformed branch of the Nestorian Church of Assyria, which has renounced the Nestorian heresy, and become Uniate with Rome.
What is now happening?
Has another branch of the Nestorian Church of Assyria renounced Nestorius, or are they coming to Rome with Nestorius still respected?
Should we now take a new and more compassionate look at what Nestorius thought was a good explanation of how Christ could die on the Cross.
For if G_d died on the cross, the with G_d dead, how could there be a resurrection.
But further, surely G_d is immortal, and cannot die.
Surely this is not a matter of morals.
It may be seen as a matter of faith, but it verges upon matters of logic, and thus science.
Such matters are not the business of infallible teaching.
At least, that is my understanding.
Read up on them - in seeking communion with the Holy See they of course abjure all that would be heresy.

What is with the “G_d” your profile lists you as a nominal Anglican…

What does become a matter of infallable teaching your book?
 
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