At my bachelorette party

[Hermione]

Dear TarAshly,

What would possess you to have a bachelorette party?!

I have never understood why people do this. Can you explain the principle behind these parties to me?

This idea seems very offensive to me. I am engaged, and the only man I want to “party” with is my fiance. I can’t imagine ever wanting to be near other guys, much less in a position where they would be trying to KISS me!!! :bigyikes:

On the other hand, I completely understand your desire to want to know exactly what your fiance did. I think you have a right to know not only what he did, but what he was thinking while attractive women were flirting with him. Was he looking at them in a sexual way? Was he fantasizing about sleeping with them? Was he comparing their body parts to your body parts and wondering if he made the right choice? This just sounds terrible! :nope:

How can your fiance have a lustful party and still be considered faithful? If no one will tell you what happened, how can it possibly be appropriate? This is the man you’re about to become ONE FLESH with, what is his is yours, thoughts, memories, experiences etc. included!

If this sort of thing would be cheating in marriage, why is it okay just a few days before?!

How can you feel safe marrying a guy who, instead of praying to God for purity and for being made a worthy husband, was getting drunk to the point of passing out, flirting with women, and doing things he won’t even tell you about!!!

For your part, your feelings of guilt are entirely appropriate.

Remember that Jesus said that looking at another person with lust in your heart is already adultery.

 

[rayne89]

Hermione:

Dear TarAshly,

On the other hand, I completely understand your desire to want to know exactly what your fiance did. I think you have a right to know not only what he did, but what he was thinking while attractive women were flirting with him. Was he looking at them in a sexual way? Was he fantasizing about sleeping with them? Was he comparing their body parts to your body parts and wondering if he made the right choice? This just sounds terrible! :nope:

How can your fiance have a lustful party and still be considered faithful? If no one will tell you what happened, how can it possibly be appropriate? This is the man you’re about to become ONE FLESH with, what is his is yours, thoughts, memories, experiences etc. included!

If this sort of thing would be cheating in marriage, why is it okay just a few days before?!

How can you feel safe marrying a guy who, instead of praying to God for purity and for being made a worthy husband, was getting drunk to the point of passing out, flirting with women, and doing things he won’t even tell you about!!!

For your part, your feelings of guilt are entirely appropriate.

Remember that Jesus said that looking at another person with lust in your heart is already adultery.

Ok lets all take a deep breath…
I don’t like bachelorette/bachelor partys. As I said I think it’s contrary to the idea of marraige. Now that being said…

what is his is yours, thoughts, memories, experiences etc. included

Because 2 become 1 does not mean you own your spouses thoughts, memories ect. Nor do you need to know every single thing the guy has ever thought -sheesh (and why would you want to?)

I do not defend bachelor parties especially anything immoral that takes place. I do not think from the things that Tar’s posted before about her fiance’ that he cheated on her.

• I think you have a right to know not only what he did, but what he was thinking while attractive women were flirting with him. Was he looking at them in a sexual way? Was he fantasizing about sleeping with them? Was he comparing their body parts to your body parts and wondering if he made the right choice?*

Hemione, I mean this sincerely and not in any spiteful way but it sounds to me by these questions you posed you have security issues. The guys is marrying her , why would you bring up all these hurtful ideas. *Was he fantasizing about sleeping with them?*What indication did he ever give her that he was thinking anything like that?

Jealousy is poison in marriage, and don’t mistake it for love because it’s not.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Hermione:

This is the man you’re about to become ONE FLESH with, what is his is yours, thoughts, memories, experiences etc. included!

I can’t think of anything I’ve read here that I disagree with more.

His thoughts, memories, experiences, etc. are his. They are private. He may choose to share them with you, but you have no right to demand them.

 

[Hermione]

Dear Rayne,

I agree with you that a person doesn’t necessarily need to know what his/her spouse thinks, but if the spouse is unwilling to tell there is a problem. I think there is a very big problem if her husband did something that he refuses to tell her about! There’s even a bigger problem if this “something” happened at a bachelor party where he drank enough to pass out!

About cheating, I guess it depends on what cheating means to you. To me any sort of fantasy or lust about another person is cheating. (I think Jesus said as much!)

About my suggestion about him fantasizing about other women, I think lustful fantasies would naturally happen in the lustful atmosphere of a bachelor party. Chastity is hard enough when a person does his best to remain chaste, I can’t imagine a drunk guy surrounded by scantily dressed women who are flirting with him, dancing with him (which is now a lot like rubbing against him) thinking about God, his future spouse, their future children, the salvation if his soul et cetera.

I didn’t make those suggestions to hurt her, but merely to point out that bachelor parties are NOT OKAY precisely because they would make a person think those thoughts!

I agree that jealousy is bad, but isn’t it natural when there is unfaithfulness or plain old lack of chastity on the part of the other person?! I think any person would feel jealous and just plain terrible if their spouse to be was looking at, fooling around with, lusting after, etc. other women!

God made lust a sin for a reason! It’s not like God wants to take away our fun. He wants us to be happy, and God knows that lusting after other people (and a bachelor party is essentially a party of lust!!!) can destroy relationships.

I think that people who are about to get married should spend time with each other in fervent prayer, and not with other people lusting and drinking alcohol.

About security issues, I would certainly have a whole lot of security issues if my fiance went to parties to drink and dance with other girls! Wouldn’t anyone?

What makes you think marriage will make him a different man? If he lusts after other women before, why not after?

 

[Hermione]

Penny Plain:

I can’t think of anything I’ve read here that I disagree with more.

His thoughts, memories, experiences, etc. are his. They are private. He may choose to share them with you, but you have no right to demand them.

I disagree. I think they are his before marriage, I think once you are married there is no more “his” or “mine” just “ours.”

I agree that we shouldn’t demand anything from our spouses, but at the same time if a person isn’t ready to give himself completely to his spouse - thoughts, memories, experiences included - he should wait until he’s ready to make that complete gift of self.

I think there’s a big problem if a spouse is holding back a part of himself. (Especially if it’s the part that went to a bachelor party and flirted with women!)

 

[rayne89]

Hermione:

Dear Rayne,

I think there is a very big problem if her husband did something that he refuses to tell her about!

That’s not what Tar said in her post though. *“nothing happened he behaved and came home to you dont worry about it” *is what she was told. Her brother and her best friend were there. Don’t you think any brother would flatten a guy who went out on his sister?

I don’t like bachelor parties, my husband certainly didn’t have one. Unfortunately I think it’s become a norm to some degree in our society. I don’t agree with it but that doesn’t mean that every guy that has a bachelor party is going to turn put to be a lousy cheating husband.

From what I understand Tar and her fiance are fairly new to the church. They are in the early stages of their faith walk. But Tar is trying, that’s why she keeps asking questions. I think they both made a poor decision on the party idea and her heart is telling her that. That is a good thing.

Hermione, we are all tainted by orginal sin, we will all make mistakes, we will all fall short. We pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness and get up and try again.

*I agree that we shouldn’t demand anything from our spouses, but at the same time if a person isn’t ready to give himself completely to his spouse - thoughts, memories, experiences included - he should wait until he’s ready to make that complete gift of self.
*
The deep bond between a husband and wife grows over time. With each joy, with tragedy, with each opportunity to be forgiving or ask for forgiveness. WIth each opportunity to build up trust. Your are young and in love, and you feel that intensity of that love. But true abiding love grows over time.

 

[Hermione]

Dear Rayne,

Tar said: "however i feel like i want to know what went on. no one will say anything but “nothing happened he behaved and came home to you dont worry about it”

To me this seems like she wants to know what happened. She doesn’t think something bad happened, she just wants to know the details because she’s obviously a little upset that all people will tell her is that “nothing happened and he behaved”.

I think there’s a problem if she wants to know but her fiance is not telling her. I think there’s a problem if he wants to know but she’s not telling him. I think there’s a problem if she’s wondering if she’s going to miss the single life that includes drinking, dancing, flirting et cetera!

I just don’t think that doing things behind each other’s backs is a good way to begin a marriage! I agree that people make plenty of mistakes, I myself used to lead a terribly sinful life when I was an atheist. Much more sinful than a bachelor party! I’m very lucky to have God’s forgiveness, to have my fiance’s forgiveness. I’m certainly not condemning anyone!

Maybe I’m young and naive, but I don’t think people should get married unless they’re ready to give themselves completely, unless they’re prepared to sacrifice themselves for their spouse and their children, and unless they’re ready to lead a God centered life.

I’m not suggesting they should break up! But if I were them, I would stay engaged longer and grow in the faith before getting married.

 

[rayne89]

Hermione:

Dear Rayne,

Tar said: "however i feel like i want to know what went on. no one will say anything but “nothing happened he behaved and came home to you dont worry about it”

To me this seems like she wants to know what happened. She doesn’t think something bad happened, she just wants to know the details because she’s obviously a little upset that all people will tell her is that “nothing happened and he behaved”.

I think there’s a problem if she wants to know but her fiance is not telling her. I think there’s a problem if he wants to know but she’s not telling him. I think there’s a problem if she’s wondering if she’s going to miss the single life that includes drinking, dancing, flirting et cetera!

I just don’t think that doing things behind each other’s backs is a good way to begin a marriage! I agree that people make plenty of mistakes, I myself used to lead a terribly sinful life when I was an atheist. Much more sinful than a bachelor party! I’m very lucky to have God’s forgiveness, to have my fiance’s forgiveness. I’m certainly not condemning anyone!

Maybe I’m young and naive, but I don’t think people should get married unless they’re ready to give themselves completely, unless they’re prepared to sacrifice themselves for their spouse and their children, and unless they’re ready to lead a God centered life.

I’m not suggesting they should break up! But if I were them, I would stay engaged longer and grow in the faith before getting married.

Hermione if you would have posted this orginally I would have not had a reason to reply. This is very reasonable and sound advise. We may not agree on everything but this is much more charitable than what you posted earlier.

I know you already know from other exchanges we’ve had we disagree on having to share every “thought ,detail and feeling” with each other. Stress the having to part. I’m sure we’ll continue to not see eye to eye on this but that’s ok.

I wasn’t trying to be demeaning by saying you were young and in love, it’s awesome to be young and in love. I wish you all the best in your up coming marriage. Just remember the sacrifice you mentioned. Keep your heart on what you can do for your husband and not what he’s supposed to do for you. Just my :twocents:

 

[Hermione]

Dear Rayne,

I agree that my first post was a bit emotional! I guess I was really offended by the concept of a bachelor party, and of the two engaged persons keeping the details from each other.

My fiance and I read it together and we were outraged that someone would do that sort of thing! If one of us did that to the other we would be deeply hurt and think the other had been unfaithful.

I actually agree with you about the “having to” part in sharing thoughts and feelings! But if there is the desire to do so on the part of either spouse, isn’t there a problem if the other spouse is refusing to share? I think there should be an expectation of sharing, after all married people are one flesh, not independent persons! It seems to me like a lot of marriages suffer because people are holding on to the independence they had when they were single.

What do you think about emotional closeness between spouses? Can it be developed to its fullest if both spouses have private worlds of which the other spouse is not a part?

I just don’t understand why anyone would want a private world that excludes their spouse! Why wouldn’t every person tell absolutely everything he could think of to the one he loves?

I agree that it’s better to have a “what can I do for my husband” attitude rather than what he’s supposed to do for me! But there are still standards we expect each other to meet, that God expects us to meet.

Thanks for wishing me the best in my upcoming marriage! I wish you the best in your marriage!

 

[rayne89]

Hermione:

But if there is the desire to do so on the part of either spouse, isn’t there a problem if the other spouse is refusing to share? I think there should be an expectation of sharing, after all married people are one flesh, not independent persons! It seems to me like a lot of marriages suffer because people are holding on to the independence they had when they were single.

What do you think about emotional closeness between spouses? Can it be developed to its fullest if both spouses have private worlds of which the other spouse is not a part?

I just don’t understand why anyone would want a private world that excludes their spouse! Why wouldn’t every person tell absolutely everything he could think of to the one he loves?

Why wouldn’t every person tell absolutely everything he could think of to the one he loves?

When two become one that doesn’t mean you give up all individuality you have. We’re not talking about separate worlds. We’re talking about allowing a person some room to breathe here.
What you keep insisting on will smother a person. I’ve been there, I’ve done that, and it’s not a happy memory for me.

It’s not always prudent to say everything because there are definitely times when it will hurt a person. Example: Let’s say I ask my hubby to please make sure our daughter takes a bath so when I get home from running errands she’ll be ready to go out. I run around like a crazy person getting things done, come home and find her in her pj’s playing video games with dad. He apologizes, says he lost track of the time and forgot. I don’t say what I would like to say, because it is not an argument that I feel is worth getting into. I keep my feelings to myself, in the big scheme of life, it’s really not important.

Let’s say we’re walking in the mall and I happen to notice a guy that is nice looking. (We’re not talking lust here, or wanting to be with the guy - just noticing he’s an attractive guy.) I’m not going to say “Hey honey look there’s an attractive guy over there.” (Please do not believe you will never notice another person’s looks once you get married.)

I trust my husband. I trust that he loves me very much, that he’s faithful to me, that he’s a good guy. So if he doesn’t feel like sharing every thought that crosses his mind it doesn’t matter, I don’t need to know everything because I trust him.

Somethings take time to share, some things are difficult to share it doesn’t mean that you have a bad relationship. If you love someone you don’t have to know every intimate detail of their history for the relationship to be ok. I think you have to give him the respect he deserves as an individual. His memories are his, his thoughts are his, his experiences are his. My husband has opened up and shared things with me over time. Not because he was obligated to but because he was ready to, because he wanted to.

My husband and I are buddies, we’re best friends I could complete his sentences for him because I know how he thinks. He has a right to some privacy, he is a unique person even though we are one flesh. I’m not going suffocate him. Needing to know everything to me means you don’t trust each other, your afraid if they don’t say that means it’s something bad.

I know we’ve gone around this circle before. I don’t think we’re going to agree on this. I wish I had this perspective from the beginning of our marriage but I don’t think someone telling me would have made a difference. It was something that I learned over time. I know you two probably want to spend every minute together,and know every thought, know every detail.
I just hope sometime time in the future when things settle down some you don’t feel hurt if your guy just wants some space to himself. Yes, I know you can’t imagine that. Most important here is that you both have heart on God’s will, and if you have that you’ll be ok.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Hermione:

I disagree. I think they are his before marriage, I think once you are married there is no more “his” or “mine” just “ours.”

I agree that we shouldn’t demand anything from our spouses, but at the same time if a person isn’t ready to give himself completely to his spouse - thoughts, memories, experiences included - he should wait until he’s ready to make that complete gift of self.

I think there’s a big problem if a spouse is holding back a part of himself. (Especially if it’s the part that went to a bachelor party and flirted with women!)

It says the two become one flesh, not one mind. My thoughts are private. Some I share, some I don’t. My husband is not my God or my confessor.

 

[Hermione]

I thought about everything I said earlier and I realized that my posts had an authoritarian quality to them!

I certainly don’t think that people are obligated, or should be forced to share everything. And I don’t think it’s right to demand or expect to have a right to the person’s thoughts, feelings, et cetera!

I’m really sorry I gave that impression!

It just seems to me that relationships are better when both people work to become close to each other, and work to reach the state where both voluntarily want to share everything. The point isn’t to smother anyone, or intrude on something they don’t want to share! Rather it’s the desire to grow closer by sharing everything that can be shared!

Sorry it seemed like I thought everyone is obligated to share, or that all relationships should be forced into this ideal!

Sharing everything, even sins, works very well for my fiance and myself. We feel like we’re really close and know each other very well.

I’m sorry I implied that this is the only way to have a good relationship, or that this is the best way! Sorry!

 

[rayne89]

Hermione:

I’m sorry I implied that this is the only way to have a good relationship, or that this is the best way! Sorry!

Every relationship is differant. I just noticed today that your fiance posts on here too. From what I read you both seem to be of the same mind of what works for your relationship. That is excellant.

It’s easy to forget that our way (I do it too) isn’t necessarily the best for everyone. I mean it works so great for us, why wouldn’t I want to share it with everyone? But we can learn from each other, even if we don’t agree on everything.

You both seem to be of the same mind set,same goals, same ideals - what a great way to start a marriage. Some people have to meet some where in the middle - but that’s ok too. And some people even thrive off the differences -go figure? But it works for them.

Trust in God, follow his will and may God bless you and your fiance’.

 

[Hermione]

Thanks

May God bless you and your husband!