At the heart of it all

[BarbaraTherese]

The article below spoke to a book I am reading at the moment by Thomas Merton “Contemplative Prayer” in which he outlines (in some sections) from the history of the desert fathers down to the 16th. century mystics how the subject of prayer became a rather confusing matter in the monastic life, and hence into the life of the laity, from that of the simplicity of the desert fathers who saw prayer in every moment of their lives – and not only when in choir praying the Psalms, or praying alone………they saw prayer in their duties as well whatever they were in their days and in every moment of those days - e v e r y. There was no division into active and contemplative etc. etc. No higher or lower forms of prayer etc. etc. Rather Martha and Mary traveled always together as identical twin sisters. The desert fathers saw their own lives as a whole without divisions and distinctions - all was of equality and equal importance……and yet many were great mystics, although the word and distinction was entirely foreign to them. This all reminded me of St. Therese……while she may have had an inkling that she could be a saint and with a bit of a stretch of her imagination perhaps even a Doctor of The Church due to her “Little Way”, I am very very sure, however, that if we had suggested to her that she would be also classified on the altars of The Church as a mystic….then we would have seen that pretty little face glow with totally disbelieving laughter. It’s all worth thinking about fer sure!!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif

Mysticism whatever it is, I think, is not something that happens to a person, but something that flows out of their heart and core - their unique selves/centre in God. As Merton wrote, ‘mysticism’ has three components that are the one ‘movement’: repenentance/penitent, humility and love. Certainly the desert fathers had that understanding without perhaps the conciseness of our theological language. I think (analysis!!! ) with our honed and shiny 21st century gift for analysis we can make the mistake of setting up an intellectual concept and work towards that, which is rather like contemplating one’s own navel…rather than seeking God within and finding, is an immediacy of flowing out in compassionate understanding love. Something like that I guess.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif
Blessings to you and yours…………Barb

Editorial: At the Heart of It All

http://www.donbosco.asn.au/Bulletins/2006/june/editorial.htm

*“Well,” he said in the barber shop, “I only read newspapers in the morning, so I can forget it all before midday and then I can mix some good living as my Christianity for the rest of the day.” *

 

[Ricardothere]

…the desert fathers who saw prayer in every moment of their lives – and not only when in choir praying the Psalms, or praying alone………they saw prayer in their duties as well whatever they were in their days and in every moment of those days - e v e r y. … As Merton wrote, ‘mysticism’ has three components that are the one ‘movement’: repenentance/penitent, humility and love. Certainly the desert fathers had that understanding without perhaps the conciseness of our theological language. I think (analysis!!! ) with our honed and shiny 21st century gift for analysis we can make the mistake of setting up an intellectual concept and work towards that, which is rather like contemplating one’s own navel…rather than seeking God within and finding, is an immediacy of flowing out in compassionate understanding love. Something like that I guess.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif
Blessings to you and yours…………Barb

Greetings Barb,
Whew ! You have covered much ground in your post !

 I think that each and every one of us has his or her own way.We are all different: get 20 people to draw a bunch of apples on a table and you get 20 different drawings or paintings.

We should, each of us, find our ‘‘way’’. And to do that I think we have to find our true self and personality in Christ. That is like finding our way Home.

St Benedict taught us to '' Ora et Labora ''. What you are saying, Barb, is that you agree with the desert fathers in that Ora and Labora are one and the same ? I concur wholeheartedly.

St Theresa taught us that to simply gaze at Jesus and love Him could be the basis of one’s spiritual and prayer life. She also lived the wisdom of the desert fathers but in her own way . We are all made… created… so that every moment of every day we can pray and honor our Heavenly Father. Its up to each of us to have an attitude of ‘’ Fiat ‘’. Then we become co-creators with God in His ongoing creation. Then we come Home to where we belong…living in God’s everlasting love.

 JMJ,


    Ricardo

 

[InLight247]

There was no division into active and contemplative etc. etc. No higher or lower forms of prayer etc. etc. Rather Martha and Mary traveled always together as identical twin sisters.

Barb, thanks for another thought provoking post.

Life and prayer really cannot be separated, just like body and mind have to be one.
A true believer’s action reflects his belief. When one earnestly desires to please God, his work (interaction with men) shows accordingly. Such person does everything for God, with God and in God. Like the “Little Way”, in this sense all is dedicated to the love of God, and all becomes significant. Work and prayer are one, active and contemplative mingles, Martha and Mary travel together.

However, this is not to say the identical twins should be lack of individuality.
On top of performing our work in a contemplative mode, we also need just to be Mary, giving our undivided time and attention to the Beloved. Like Mary sitting under Jesus’ foot, the prayer of quiet gives us a better communion with God.

 

[Ricardothere]

An off topic thought…

   To see pictures of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity, St Theresa, St Faustina or other young women who died early in life from fatal diseases is just so heartrendering.

Please pardon the interuption,

JMJ,

 Ricardo

 

[InLight247]

An off topic thought…

   To see pictures of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity, St Theresa, St Faustina or other young women who died early in life from fatal diseases is just so heartrendering.

Please pardon the interuption,

JMJ,

Ricardo

Those Saints wanted to be with God.
Their love and longing for God were so intense and they wanted to leave this world and go to the next.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi InLight and RicardoThere………….Rather than write a couple of posts I’ll try to address some of your comments in this one post, and apologies for doing so………takes up less space will be my rationalization!

Quoting RicardoThere in all instances:

****think that each and every one of us has his or her own way.We are all different: get 20 people to draw a bunch of apples on a table and you get 20 different drawings or paintings. ****
We should, each of us, find our ‘‘way’’. And to do that I think we have to find our true self and personality in Christ. That is like finding our way Home.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Uniqueness means that we are all different ……… reflecting that overwhelming diversity we see in nature, and we are part of that nature and diversity…….and just as diverse. Identity flows from within outwards, in fact if we do get in touch with our true selves, there is God and the ‘getting in touch with God’ is an outward flowing of love – for God loves all He has created “and God saw that it was good”; hence if we are in touch with God then the God who is Love flows outwards to His creation “how can you say you love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see?”. Certainly what Thomas Merton had to say in “Contemplative Prayer” that all too often we tend to ‘role play” rather than truly get in touch with our true selves, our unique identity…….this involves risk and it is that fear of risk that makes role playing more safe. Role playing, Merton points out, very often is simply the art of presenting an acceptable and safe “face” to our exterior world insoever how it is present to us. There is some truth in that I think; however, I also think modern life has confused the issue of identity and “true identity” for us and for very many. There is no culpability at all in this…rather we are children of our times - as every person in every time and milieu remains.
This also ties in with the article in my opening post………we all have a call or vocation and most of us are lay people with involvements in ‘the world”………the “old school spirituality” (I’ll call it that) tended to lean towards rejection and abandonment of ‘the world’ in order to become truly spiritual. Nowadays theology and spirituality insights that the world is holy and sacred - all God has created is good and all He sustains in creation - and we are the leaven in society or the world that rises (resurrects) the whole in Christ. The spirituality of St. Therese points out that our duties connected to whatever our vocation may be are the very stuffing that makes saints………rather than abandoning the world, we are called into it to purpose………be I simply a garbage collector perhaps – and if I am, then collecting the garbage can make a saint of me. The very ordinary lived in an extra-ordinary manner as it is said of St. Therese and her particular insight.

**

St Benedict taught us to ‘’ Ora et Labora ‘’. What you are saying, Barb, is that you agree with the desert fathers in that Ora and Labora are one and the same ? I concur wholeheartedly.

**
It is an oft quoted statement by St. Benedict that the whole of life is “work and prayer” – these are not two distinct functions, but the one function. As I work I pray and as I pray I work. The word “work” can scare some schools of thought who feel that their concept of contemplation is under some sort of threat. Not so! But that is another subject.

I am going to have to break my post into two posts as the computer tells me, and not unusually, I have far too much to say! Apologies! Hence this post is Part One and Part Two follows this. Blessings - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Greetings again!..As you have stated (RicardoThere) the simple wisdom of the Desert Fathers is where it is all at and still remains so…….however in our 21st century gift, as I stated in my OP, for analysis and re analysis and at times over-analysis, we have made that simplicity of thought of the Desert Fathers into something very complex, and lost something in the doing………in fact the heart of it all: “simplicity”. In fact I found even with a book I can really appreciate, as very dark (somewhat depressing) as it is to my mind, “Contemplative Prayer” by Thomas Merton, I found that as he wrote to re-find simplicity………it become, again to my mind, a very complex and dark matter. Even Merton, I think, could see this……pointing out that with our human need to communicate our thinking, simplicity does become complex. Simplicity is a very complex matter I think to put into words. It is further complicated by a vast, vast sea of knowledge and all the words created through that knowledge to communicate it. The Desert Fathers had no such complex knowledge.

Writing about life is one art…living one’s life is another art entirely.

Quoting InLight in all instances:
**

all becomes significant. Work and prayer are one, active and contemplative mingles, Martha and Mary travel together.

**

Well put!..and “significant” is the operative word. Being a householder I have a need to put out my garbage weekly (I have, as you can see, a fixation about “garbage” – reason obvious I hope! ) then to put out the garbage lovingly as a duty of my state loved, becomes salvific and holy…….my garbage is resurrected to its rightful place…….a holy and sacred duty of my state – and quite equal with a monk in choir, also about a holy and sacred duty of his state. Where would our world be without monks in choir…and without putting out garbage???

**

Those Saints wanted to be with God.

**

Their love and longing for God were so intense and they wanted to leave this world and go to the next.

(InLight is responding to Ricardo’s comments about the heartrending picture of some of our saints who died very young).
I agree that it is heart rending. The pictures of St. Therese in particular towards the end of her life show a face marked by deep suffering with very dark circles under her eyes………and also that they wanted to be with God more than they wanted to live. At times, personally, I do not want to die because I love life so much…….at other times I want to leave this earth because life is too painful. At other times, the though of knowing what really lays beyond death is exciting to a spirit of adventure. Many years ago I read some book (forgotten sadly which book ) which had these words which stay with me always “never be afraid to invest fully in who you are” and further it stated “every person has the right to experience reality from their own ground of being”. Profound words and lived by, I think, can be a guide to discovering our true self with its inherent risk and risks – and without fear. A unique self in Christ. Be that as it may, we are created as creatures in need of human affirmation “every day as long as this day lasts keep encouraging one another” (Introductory to the Divine Office). We are social beings and created to be social beings “it is not good for man to be alone”. This introduces a new word - “community” which is a whole theology of its own and another subject entirely too. One thing I am noticing with the internet and discussion boards such as this…community can be built in its fullest theological sense through modern technology we call “the internet”.

I thank both of you for receiving my thoughts with such loving charity. I switched on my computer today rather fearful I would find myself under challenge/attack. I invested in who I really am (spoke my own truth plainly and with trembling) and though fearful since it seemed risky to me (I detest confrontations! ), found due to your kindness, humility and love that I had nothing to fear in the first place.

May the Good God bless you and yours……….Barb
PS – Thank you so much again! Obviously we are all on the same wavelength and that tells me that perhaps there is some truth somewhere in it all and hence worth staying on the track investigating and seeking. May God be praised!

 

[InLight247]

we are created as creatures in need of human affirmation “every day as long as this day lasts keep encouraging one another” (Introductory to the Divine Office).

How true it is! That’s why the Bible tells us to edify each other.
Giving affirmation to others is part of loving our neighbors.
Thanks Barb for the affirmation you always give out to others in your posts.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

How true it is! That’s why the Bible tells us to edify each other.
Giving affirmation to others is part of loving our neighbors.
Thanks Barb for the affirmation you always give out to others in your posts.

Thank you very much, InLight. The dear nun who taught me in college said something that really stuck to me over the years - “never be afraid to imitate good example”. In affirming others, I am merely imitating the good example I experience…including your own affirmation of the other always present and gift. I found Ricardo also a most affirming presence and gift. Affirming the other allows them to blossom. It is a psychological premise that a person will strive to live up to our highest expectations of them. Having studied psychology at least for a while, it truly stunned me how often psychology does affirm our spirituality and rightly so for true science and true theology (which is another branch of science) must walk happily hand in hand or something is wrong in the science or theology…something taught to me again by that dear nun I meantioned. As I have journeyed through life I have looked to see where science and theology agree and if they disagree I know there is more searching to be done and either science or theology needs more work and investigating. Both are seeking truth, an aspect of Truth - as reality is an aspect of Reality.
I thank you both very much for being so kind to me. Having been so very gentle and kind to me, I shall seek to be gentle and kind too to others. You have dropped a gentle and kind pebble into the lake and the gentle and kind ripples will widen. Let us praise and thank The Lord always for His many gracious Graces and gifts…always apparent. In the very deepest and desolate of sufferings, one can always find something or someone to thank Him for and to be grateful, praising Him. Again, psychology tells us that such observing of the good things helps one with a suffering…a Cyrene to help carry the cross.
I talk too much! Product I think of living alone.

Blessings - Barb

 

[InLight247]

Yes, you are right Barb, that science and theology are compatible. Everything proved by science is part of God’s creation under theology. I also agree with you about the ripple effect. I heard a saying long time ago, “A smile may cancel a person’s suicide intention.” That could be very true. We have to do our best to be the Christ for the other.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Yes, you are right Barb, that science and theology are compatible. Everything proved by science is part of God’s creation under theology. I also agree with you about the ripple effect. I heard a saying long time ago, “A smile may cancel a person’s suicide intention.” That could be very true. We have to do our best to be the Christ for the other.

…Amen…

All sciences including theology are the search for truth and God is Truth as He is Reality…God is Ultimate Truth and Ultimate Reality - hence truth and reality point to God who is The Ultimate…thus if sciences contradict each other we can be assured something is amiss somewhere…
I really like your quote that a smile could cancel a suicide intention and it could. We have bus tickets here that have little wisdoms on them and one is “Smile, it costs nothing”. And indeed we strive to be Christ to each other…who could (and can!) also be a challenging presence. We pray for balance in all things and sensitivity and wisdom… to know and complete always only Your Will, Oh Lord!

God’s Blessings on you and yours …and ours…Barb

 

[Ricardothere]

. We have to do our best to be the Christ for the other.

Amen.

While I was a monk I often felt the need for sacrifice and austerity…I had planned to ask permission to use the hermitage for about 3 days to fast and pray in solitude.

Before I could leave to go to my retreat, one of my friends showed up with wine and a selection of cheeses fit for royalty. Furthermore he wanted to talk about arguments with his gf about their dog. Well so much for the fasting, austerity and prolonged prayer. I listened patiently to my friend who gave me all the details about their arrangements regarding their dog and the difficulties and complications of housetraining it.

Point is…He chooses…and obedience to His will is more pleasing to Him than sacrifices, burnt offerings or whatever else we can come up with.

JMJ,
Ricardo

 

[Ricardothere]

I agree that it is heart rending. The pictures of St. Therese in particular towards the end of her life show a face marked by deep suffering with very dark circles under her eyes………and also that they wanted to be with God more than they wanted to live.]

 I agree with Inlight.. however I cannot but feel deeply saddened by these images..Even though I have never met any of these saintly women.. St Theresa, Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity or St Faustina.. I feel like they are my friends.. my sisters in Christ..and I make no effort to hide my feelings when I see their pictures and how they suffered..I gaze upon them with Christ at my side ... Who, when He heard that His friend Lazarus had passed away.....'' Jesus wept''

 Thank you for listening Barb,

  JMJ,

   Ricardo

 

[Ricardothere]

[COL
I agree that it is heart rending. The pictures of St. Therese in particular towards the end of her life show a face marked by deep suffering with very dark circles under her eyes………and also that they wanted to be with God more than they wanted to live.

I agree with Inlight… however I cannot but feel deeply saddened by these images…Even though I have never met any of these saintly women… St Theresa, Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity or St Faustina… I consider them to be my friends… my sisters in Christ…and I make no effort to hide my feelings when I see their pictures and how they suffered…I gaze upon them with Christ at my side … Who, when He heard that His friend Lazarus had passed away…’’ Jesus wept’’

 Thank you for listening Barb,

PS. Saint Padre Pio said , in a consoling vein, that we will all be together in the hereafter.

  JMJ,

   Ricardo

 

[ncjohn]

Hi Barb and all,

I finally got a few quiet moments in which I could glance through this thread and compose myself to make a couple observations. As usual Barb, you have packed a lot into a small space–and the responses have been beautiful–but there are a couple things that spoke particularly to me.

There was no division into active and contemplative etc. etc. No higher or lower forms of prayer etc. etc. Rather Martha and Mary traveled always together as identical twin sisters.

Very reminiscent of Brother Lawrence also in his Practice of the Presence of God.

Yes, all is prayer–ora et labora as Ricardo noted. And Martha and Mary do travel together in the well-ordered life as life truly can’t be separated. For some reason I hadn’t thought of it in those terms though I certainly recognize the concept.

Yet as InLight noted, as did Brother Lawrence, we must still find those times for the special quiet time with God also. To sit at His feet as Mary did. Or the “little moments of adoration” of Brother Lawrence. Without these special times of going out into the desert to pray, the active part will be random and unguided.

Mysticism whatever it is, I think, is not something that happens to a person, but something that flows out of their heart and core - their unique selves/centre in God.

I would say that that is pretty much on the money. I don’t see mysticism as an acquired “skill”, but rather a character trait. One might become a mystic as they are transformed through cooperation with the grace and love of God, but I don’t think one “learns” to be a mystic.

And as noted, if it is present it will show throughout one’s life, whether in their prayer or in the way they live. By their fruits you shall know them. One will always have that smile or the tender touch that will be the cancellation of someone’s suicide intention, whether it be physical or spiritual.

Peace to you Barb,

 

[Ricardothere]

Hello Barbara,
The wisdom of the fathers of the desert is indeed where it is at …then and now. Its not wisdom for the few… or for the elite… its for everyone. Even the Rule of St Benedict has got something for everyone. As a matter of fact there is a book now called ''Engaging… the Rule of St Benedict ‘’… I can’t remember the exact title. …But it makes the Rule accessible to all Christians…

       As for mysticism... the desert fathers had a lot of very useful insights..Deep union with God is very much His choice as well as ours..He can chose the when and how and with whom as he wishes. He knows what is best. He also helps us find our true selves which are revealed within His Love and Mercy. His Love and Mercy melt away the falsehoods of our creation until the gold of our divine discipleship shines through.

Inlight said…

. We have to do our best to be the Christ for the other.

Amen…

Many years ago… seems like it was a different lifetime… its been so long…when I was a monk I often felt the need for sacrifice and austerity…I had planned to ask permission to use the hermitage for about 3 days to fast and pray in solitude.

Before I could leave to go to my retreat, one of my friends showed up with wine and a selection of cheeses fit for royalty. Furthermore he wanted to talk about arguments with his gf concerning their dog. Well so much for the fasting, austerity and prolonged prayer that I had planned. God had other plans… and so I listened patiently to my friend who gave me all the details about their arrangements regarding their dog and the difficulties and complications of housetraining it.

Point is…He chooses…and obedience to His will is more pleasing to Him than sacrifices, burnt offerings or whatever else we can come up with… So when He chooses for us…its up to us to give Him a wholehearted ‘‘Yes’’…not a grumpy… ‘‘yeah ok’’ as I am guilty of on past occasions.

Well its time to go to mass…oh…btw it occurred to me …that if there are 3,000,000 posts here… and if each time we posted we said a little prayer for the others… that would mean…hmmm interesting.

union of prayers,

 JMJ,

   Ricardo

 

[InLight247]

…oh…btw it occurred to me …that if there are 3,000,000 posts here… and if each time we posted we said a little prayer for the others… that would mean…hmmm interesting.

union of prayers,

 JMJ,

Ricardo

Indeed interesting and good thoughts!

Whenever I remember, I say a prayer for all the needs of CAF members as well as prayers for particular CAF online friends.
I believe we all could be more generous about praying for others.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Ricardo, InLight and John…some truly inspirational thoughts in previous posts. We are all hovering on the same wavelength and this is always affirming. I spent some time in an strictly enclosed Benedictine monastery of Perpetual Adoration some 20 years ago, and appreciate the Rule of St. Benedict and all it implies. Seems there are quite a few “used to be’s” from one ‘school’ or another in our midst.
I thought it a wonderful suggestion and nudge to prior to posting at any time to pray aspirationally. I’ll try and develop that habit. I was checking through my bookmarks and came across an old one that are “Maxims that make saints”. I’ll post it into this Spirituality Forum perhaps tonight.
Re Martha and Mary working always together…Martha I think is present when Mary goes aside alone to be alone with The Alone. Rather than, as in the Gospel story, Martha complaining about Mary…Martha learns complete compatibility with Mary, and Mary with Martha. I read somewhere or other that mystics are the busiest saints - and in looking back into the lives of the main of our sainted mystics, they did live very busy lives. Martha and Mary work as one, are one, united in complete compatibility - integrated. Our mystics were not often very busy in a physical sense, but had very active and busy minds, intellects, and were very capable of rich intellectual activity to our benefit.

Good point, John re “by their fruits you will know them”.

God’s blessings on you and yours…and ours - Barb
PS Good to catch up with you again, John, on these Boards!..and as always we are on the same wavelength.

 

[Ricardothere]

I spent some time in an strictly enclosed Benedictine monastery of Perpetual Adoration some 20 years ago, and appreciate the Rule of St. Benedict and all it implies. Seems there are quite a few “used to be’s” from one ‘school’ or another in our midst.
Re Martha and Mary working always together…Martha I think is present when Mary goes aside alone to be alone with The Alone. Rather than, as in the Gospel story, Martha complaining about Mary…Martha learns complete compatibility with Mary, and Mary with Martha. I read somewhere or other that mystics are the busiest saints - and in looking back into the lives of the main of our sainted mystics, they did live very busy lives. Martha and Mary work as one, are one, united in complete compatibility - integrated. Our mystics were not often very busy in a physical sense, but had very active and busy minds, intellects, and were very capable of rich intellectual activity to our benefit.
.

Greetings Barb,

Its interesting that you were in a Benedictine monastery…I think St Benedict is still very much alive and present in today,s Church.There are numerous threads here relative to the Medal of St Benedict and many are discovering this great saint albeit indirectly.

<< Martha and Mary work as one>> you said. I agree.

Let us not forget the esteem God has for human labor… He chose a carpenter to be the step father of Jesus and the spouse of Mary, the Mother of God. The Holy Family are meant to be an example to us all. St Joseph… the carpenter… the family man…is an example of unceasing prayer… of Martha and Mary working as one… he has so many titles…Protector of the Church…Terror of Demons…Model of Workers…Protector of Virgins and Innocents…Patron of the Sick… Patron of the Dying…Consoler of the Afflicted…and much more. In addition, Jesus started His church with a handful of fishermen.

The fathers of the desert teach us to recognize the unity of human life in God and the fundamental simplicity of our relationship to God…how else could we become as like the <> Jesus speaks of ?..
Interestingly…The author of the << Cloud of Unknowing >> said he didn,t want <> to read his book. Neither was Jesus fond of <>, Pharisees or others like them. ( end of Mathew 13.)… Is it any wonder ? The <> burdened the trusting and innocent with systemic nit-picking thus obscuring the face of a merciful God who loves us beyond reason. The message of the fathers of the desert… of the author of the <>… of Jesus…is the accessability of God to His children…In addition, Jesus makes it clear again and again… in parable after parable : that God loves sinners…<< there is more joy in heaven… >> Likewise, the teachings of the desert fathers are full of hope and have nothing of the legalistic bean-counting of the <> Pharisees. As a shining example, St Theresa is known as the greatest saint of modern times… and her way is simple… it is the way of Christian Love.

God bless all of us,

    JMJ,

      Ricardo

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thank you, Ricardo, for the inspirational thoughts…this thread I think has brought forward much food for thought and also from InLight and John…Blessings - Barb