At this rate, I won't feel like I belong in any church

[TCEL]

So for the past couple of months, I have been reading and posting on here, I’ve watched episodes of journey home on EWTN, I’ve read the shorter explained version of theology of the body, I’ve read “The Protestants Dilemma”, the early church fathers and Jacobs Ladder: 10 steps to truth. I’m in the process of reading the catechism too. I have also been attending mass on occasion and spoken to a priest once. Thank you to all of your suggestions so far, it’s helped a great deal.

When I first came here, I felt as if I was drawn to the Catholic Church but didn’t understand or agree with many of its teachings. on reflection, reading and praying about these things, I find myself more drawn to the Catholic Church then ever before. Even my atheist husband has an attraction to it.

I’ve realised I have always believed in the real presence, I just didn’t realise I did. I believe in the communion of the saints, I believe in the sacrament of reconciliation. When I sit at mass, I feel Gods presence greater than I ever have done before, it’s a wonderful feeling,

…HOWEVER…I do still have issues and every time I feel like I have sorted one issues, another comes about.bThe biggest for me is contraception, I can’t get my head around it. I have tried to but can’t. Then I come across a post in my “validity of marriage” thread about a revert whose 30year marriage is being broken because the church doesn’t recognise it - this infuriates me. It’s so big on divorce, yet willing to break up a 30year legal marriage? especially when it’s ok for me to be married to an atheist just because we were married before I will have become (maybe) catholic?

So here is my dilemma, I can’t go back to the Protestant churches, I don’t feel anything there, it just feels like four walls, artificial. Not the truth. Yet, I don’t feel in complete approval of the Catholic Church either. So now I feel stuck in no church…

First off, you have so much going for you! You have the comfort of belief in the real presence. Treasure that! Interestingly enough, that’s something I as a life-long believer believe, but wrestle with. I want to understand better. It just means I need to grow.

My husband is a convert. He said he felt absolute terror the more he read the Catechism; with a bit of comfort in realizing there was nothing he disagreed with, but simply more to believe.

It’s very painful to be where you are. I feel so much sympathy for people who honestly seek. I learned from my mother that true agnosticism isn’t flippant or self-satisfied, but painful. (I know you believe in God, but I still draw on her experience.) It’s laborious. And she had to take a true leap of faith. Reason brought her so far because she’s a very reasonable person, and then she said she had to let go of everything, and step out. Not that faith is unreasonable, but because we’re surrendering to something bigger than us. (Oddly enough, I always think of that scene from the third Indiana Jones movie, where he’s come to the third challenge of the big black canyon. He has to let everything go and step out into the abyss on an act of faith. That’s terrifying.)

Lol, I also remember her telling me about a conversation regarding contraception with the priest who “received her back” into the Church. She said she left him that day, all smug and intent on coming back to him with all her reasons why she wasn’t going to give it up. That very night, she had a conversion about it. She figured that when she had said “yes” to God, she meant everything. So, the next day she came back to the priest and said, “Yep. You’re right.”

My own spiritual journey has been different than that. I’m not a particularly patient person, so I want an explanation now. I still have lots of questions, though now they’ve changed in nature. Contraception was one for me, and once I just accepted Church teaching, it started to make sense out of its teaching on same-sex marriage. Once I saw it in light of other teachings, it made more sense. It wasn’t just a bit of isolated curmudgeonry, but actually quite enlightened and historically sound within Christianity’s tradition.

Everyone has different questions they wrestle with. Whenever I get frustrated, I remember St. Paul talking about how Jesus was exalted because of his humility and obedience to the Father.

I’ve also learned, and am having to be continually told by God, that He has a different sense of time than we do. Like St. Teresa said: “Patience obtains all things.”

I feel for you, and prayers on your journey!

 

[Lormar]

So here is my dilemma, I can’t go back to the Protestant churches, I don’t feel anything there, it just feels like four walls, artificial. Not the truth. Yet, I don’t feel in complete approval of the Catholic Church either. So now I feel stuck in no church…

I thought to add that I understand the above very well. Even though I am not a convert, I have felt that I do not belong in my own Church. But. Where am I to go? The Church alone has the Truth. There are times, and I just went though one of those times, where I am tempted to give up on going to Church at all and just sit home, read Holy Scripture, and “create” my own little church (we will call it “The Church of Lormar” :clapping::clapping::dancing::dancing.

TruthFaith, greater minds than ours have had to submit their intellect to that of the Church. If St. Thomas Acquinas and St. Augustine and St. Robert Bellarmine (and many others) could and did do it, who am I?

I will pray for you. Say one for me too.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you, I’m sorry if I over reacted, I’m an emotional person and it probably stems from being frustrated at every time I feel like I’m getting somewhere, something happens which puts me back.

The other posters are right, I’m still in Protestant mentality mode in some aspects and I know it’s probably me in error and not the church…but I can’t lie and pretend I’m ok with something when I’m not.

I can tell you what has kind of helped me. When I do not understand or wrap my head around something. I fall back on “obedience” Especially when I struggled with contraceptives. The by being obedient to the Church you are not being asked to do wrong. Though obedience is easy when it is the thing you want to do, it is hard when it is inconvenient or very difficult or when it requires sacrifice and humility.

In this world we have lost the concept of obedience. Perhaps you should frame your troubles that way.

 

[david_patrick]

hi,
i usually respond to posts that deal with prayer in particular/ i am not qualified to talk about marriage/ but i do read the flow of this thread, there is a rate, a flow per time/ that of the accusing word, ‘You.’ there is no peace-…not a good trend…( i think it productive to be assertive with your views);
Oh, your priest is typically busy?
i think God is not too busy though…

Wonderful that you report the presence of God-a peacefulness in church…and once -i thought about that-this is what the prophets desired and dreamed of, generations hoped for-and you got it…

Catholics like the truth, but catholics are not without disagreement/ take for instance, the threads to compare conditional and unconditional love-Oh the thing goes and and on…arguments and counter points/ that leaves me as the virtual reality king on a 2 dimensional interface lap top -to choose, conditional love verses unconditional love-then to draw in a question, is God’s love conditional, or is God’s love unconditional…??
actually, i won’t ruffle feathers here to be explicit : which i chose…and to continue about prayer, as you now know the presence of God is in the church, even in the physical church-i’m sure your church displays on walls, complete with stain glass windows, the alter, the crucifix, those stations of the cross- (have you practiced on the stations of the cross yet?) A nice experience, by the way…
a soul cannot challenge those images that portray a suffering-of course, these paintings are not promotion of something, would you agree divine love-might moreover challenge the soul (wake it up?); yet a larger truth/ sometimes , on occasion, even entering weeks- a soul will doubt; it is a natural occurance…so, for example, if i am sitting in church in the presence of God-my doubts are (at bay) or resolved “It’s a good run…;” Well another day sitting in the same spot- dry feeligns happen like (is there a God? what do you want me to do? what do you want with me, Lord? ) doubt is like a Sahara-a hot-uncomfortable desert -prayer become a Sahara, dry and lonely and gives a feeling of lostness; although, you could challenge and question things and preoccupations to find that compass to run from that desert…; a soul cannot challenge truth; hence a dilemma…factors increasing/weighty balance-that of the presence of God,resistance-that ‘feeling’ in struggle-you can’t isolate nor yet define…given offences (your heart feels that offenses) stack up…i suggest that the heart nearest to God-knows and feels she is a daughter of God…the offenses, imaginary or not-are taken care by a loving God-as proof-you may see the visual when seated in church-look to the crucifix-that God loves His daughters…The priest is busy, as your OP reported; but God is not…
imagine-God will take your offenses -and just like the observation of a drop of water onto a hot iron stove-evaporate these-and you, His daughter, will know it…God loves you, no matter what…have a peaceful day, Patrick

 

[Lormar]

Though obedience is easy when it is the thing you want to do, it is hard when it is inconvenient or very difficult or when it requires sacrifice and humility.

In this world we have lost the concept of obedience. …

Excellent! That is the root of my problem and the problem of most everyone who has a problem with the Church on any level.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you, I’m sorry if I over reacted, I’m an emotional person and it probably stems from being frustrated at every time I feel like I’m getting somewhere, something happens which puts me back.

The other posters are right, I’m still in Protestant mentality mode in some aspects and I know it’s probably me in error and not the church…but I can’t lie and pretend I’m ok with something when I’m not.

Don’t beat yourself up about “Protestant mentality mode.” Just realize that there is more help and authoritative guidance available than you may be accustomed to having. You should not nod and pretend a false front. This is usually a gradual process, and not something that happens overnight. Besides, even cradle Catholics are sometimes tempted to question the Church in a less-than-trusting way. Try to trust, ask for trust, but hang in there, and do not beat up on yourself. Obedience is hard, but like a muscle it grows stronger with use.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Patrick - what do you mean by practiced the stations of the cross? They are the plaques on the walls of the church aren’t they?

 

[Casilda]

The poor OP lacks any guidance, and has been trying to cobble this all together by personal effort alone. With sound teaching, I think most of these problems can be addressed, don’t you? Yet some denominations cut their believers loose to figure it all out on their own, so people can get the impression that they’re supposed to be able to discern the truth all on their own. It is an understandable misconception to have, in the OPs situation. Unfortunate, incorrect, but understandable. If we were cut loose on the internet on our own, with no education to correct what we read, we’d be sorely tempted to do as she has, I would think.

Many persons begin to walk in the way of virtue - Our Lord longing to lead them in to the obscure night that they may travel onwards into the Divine union but make no progress Sometimes because they will not enter upon this night or suffer Him to lead them into it and sometimes also because they do not understand their own state and are destitute of fit and wise directors who may guide them to the summit of the mount. How miserable it is to see many souls to whom God has given grace to advance and who had they taken courage would have reached perfection.

I know I have misplaced trust, I should be more discerning, just because someone has placed themselves at the gate of the church, I should not trust them. I know God. I trust no one but God. People have misled me my whole life. I am going to try and find me what they now call a ‘religious’. I will no longer post here.

 

[Corki]

Catholics who don’t act in a Christian way also put me off sometimes but hey I accept that I’m only human and not perfect! I am grateful for the posters on here who have been very helpful in explaining things even if my views have been “silly”.

I hate to say this but there is a point in the journey to the Church where inquirers should probably stay away from places like CAF. There are Catholics on here who may not be as pastoral in their approach and that might be interpreted as being un-Christian. There are also Catholics here who adhere to very little of Church teaching and who like to “stir the pot” especially in the Moral Theology forum. And there are posters here who are probably not Catholic at all regardless of what their profile says but who use these forums for amusement purposes.

Better to stick with source documents for a while - I recommend the Catholic Catechism for Adults (and its accompanying study guide) and work with a good priest. You can always hit CAF up for specific questions but browsing around can be dangerous for someone whose faith in the Church is not yet solidified.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thanks all for your responses. Couple of random questions which I don’t want to start a whole new thread for.

1. what’s the church official teaching on believers marrying non believers?
2. in terms of contraception, does that include hysterectomy?

 

[St_Francis]

Thanks all for your responses. Couple of random questions which I don’t want to start a whole new thread for.

1. what’s the church official teaching on believers marrying non believers?

Catholics can be permitted to marry non-believers, under the correct circumstances to make the marriage validly sacramental.

1. in terms of contraception, does that include hysterectomy?

If a woman needs a hysterectomy for medical reasons (cancer and the like), it is perfectly acceptable. If she has a hysterectomy to ensure she has no more children (do they even do that?), then it would not be morally acceptable.

If a woman has a hysterectomy just to keep from having more children, and then enters the Church, if she had been previously baptized she would need to confess her sin, or else her baptism will wipe away all her sins<< Note that in each of these cases, the sin will be absolved only if the person repents (is sorry for) the sin. One must be at least sorry because they fear the pains of Hell (impoerfect contrition), but the ideal, of course, is to be sorry because they offended Someone they love (God)(perfect contrition).

(This is the good thing about Confession–it requires only imperfect contrition (along with a plan to discontinue the sinful activity) for one’s sins to be absolved. Outside of Confession, perfect contrition is necessary.)

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks all for your responses. Couple of random questions which I don’t want to start a whole new thread for.

1. what’s the church official teaching on believers marrying non believers?
2. in terms of contraception, does that include hysterectomy?

A Catholic has the right to marry another Catholic, if both are free to marry, but a Catholic who marries a non-Catholic must obtain permission, which is a bit different for a baptized non-Catholic than for an unbaptized person. For your purposes, suffice it to say that people already married to unbaptized persons are able to join the Church; that isn’t any impediment in itself. Unless both spouses are baptized, the marriage is not sacramental, but that doesn’t mean it is not a “real” marriage.

Hysterectomy is forbidden except for reasons serious enough to make the unfortunate loss of fertility necessary. Even if a sterilization is done for immoral reasons it is not necessary to try to have the procedure reversed in order to obtain absolution. It would be roughly like having elective surgery to have your hand cut off. Nobody would dream of saying it is “OK” to have a healthy hand cut off, not even if it wasn’t much use for working, but you could confess that and be absolved even if you didn’t have a surgeon lined up to try to put it back on.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thanks both

Some Protestant churches are quite big on the whole equally yoked thing. I’ve had several people post things on Facebook which are very anti believers marrying non believers. It hurts to see because I love my husband dearly, we have a fantastic marriage and my faith has grown hugely since I’ve been with him. In fact it’s because of him I started looking at the Catholic Church. I used to be anti catholic

 

[TCEL]

Thanks both

Some Protestant churches are quite big on the whole equally yoked thing. I’ve had several people post things on Facebook which are very anti believers marrying non believers. It hurts to see because I love my husband dearly, we have a fantastic marriage and my faith has grown hugely since I’ve been with him. In fact it’s because of him I started looking at the Catholic Church. I used to be anti catholic

Truly, there are exceptions. I think what people mean is that if someone has faith and the other doesn’t, it can be difficult and something to seriously consider before getting married. In my case, I think it would have been difficult for me to marry someone who doesn’t have faith when I am expected, and want, to raise the children in that faith; because it is something very, very important to me. I would have felt like I was fighting uphill if they saw mommy doing one thing, and daddy another. But, you are coming from a different background with a different situation. My dad, a devout man, married my mom even though she was kind of “anti-Catholic” at the time. Interestingly enough, I call him Joseph because he was going to call it all off, but he had a dream saying it would be ok. (Thank God, or I wouldn’t be here!)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Truly, there are exceptions. I think what people mean is that if someone has faith and the other doesn’t, it can be difficult and something to seriously consider before getting married. In my case, I think it would have been difficult for me to marry someone who doesn’t have faith when I am expected, and want, to raise the children in that faith; because it is something very, very important to me. I would have felt like I was fighting uphill if they saw mommy doing one thing, and daddy another. But, you are coming from a different background with a different situation. My dad, a devout man, married my mom even though she was kind of “anti-Catholic” at the time. Interestingly enough, I call him Joseph because he was going to call it all off, but he had a dream saying it would be ok. (Thank God, or I wouldn’t be here!)

Awww that’s a lovely story about your parents!

My husband is very supportive of my faith and he has said he is more than happy for our future kids to be baptised etc. I haven’t thought about when kids are older and notice daddy doesn’t come to church, but things might be different by then and I’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. Got to have kids first

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks both

Some Protestant churches are quite big on the whole equally yoked thing. I’ve had several people post things on Facebook which are very anti believers marrying non believers. It hurts to see because I love my husband dearly, we have a fantastic marriage and my faith has grown hugely since I’ve been with him. In fact it’s because of him I started looking at the Catholic Church. I used to be anti catholic

If anyone hassles you, remind them that the same St. Paul who advised against being “unequally yoked” in 2nd Corinthians also said this in 1st Corinthians:

To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
1 Cor. 7:12-16

You are married. If your husband does not want to leave you because you follow Christ, don’t leave him.

 

[TCEL]

If anyone hassles you, remind them that the same St. Paul who advised against being “unequally yoked” in 2nd Corinthians also said this in 1st Corinthians:

To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
1 Cor. 7:12-16

You are married. If your husband does not want to leave you because you follow Christ, don’t leave him.

Yes. I don’t quite understand how that passage gets overlooked.

 

[sennincatholic]

I could go into details, but I think your problem may be that you’ve only spoken to a priest once. You are stuck being your own judge of religions; this is a job beyond mortals!

Understanding in the best and deepest and most sustaining sense is built on a foundation of faith, and not the other way around. I remember a priest who put this very well. He reminded his listeners that Jesus said, “It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (John 6:63-64a) The priest pointed out that Jesus wasn’t upset with those who didn’t understand–nobody understood! He was disappointed in those who lacked faith in Him. And in Matthew, when Simon professed his belief in the Lord, Jesus did not say, *“Good for you, Simon! At least you get it! You are so much more clever than the rest of these!” *No, the priest pointed out, Our Lord said, *“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” *(Matt. 16:17) The Lord did not require that his disciples understand. He required that they trusted, that they were willing to believe.

That is not to say that understanding is not important. It is. It is to say that in the vast majority of cases, faith comes first, then understanding. Certainly the understanding that profits is built on faith. Those who make their faith wait on understanding very often remain agnostic or find themselves refraining from any personal encounters with God. This even includes some people who are scholars of religion, who understand more things about more different religions than almost anyone else! With all that study, they don’t necessary find faith in anything. The famous expert in comparative religion, Joseph Campbell, in spite of all his knowledge, had lost the Catholic faith of his childhood. It is not always this way–God is persistent and imaginative beyond belief in His pursuit of souls!! Still, the exceptions prove the rule, which is that those who let their faith draw them into understanding come to a deeper understanding. The deep understanding that is built on faith is unavailable to those whose vast knowledge is all in their heads, the ones who are waiting for the fact that will force them to believe. They are waiting for a long shot, to put it mildly.

Did you know that RCIA classes usually start in September but do not ask candidates to take steps to join the Church until months later? Some parishes even call the initial classes “Inquiry Classes,” and structure them for so that they also benefit non-Catholic spouses or friends who quite resolutely do not want to join the Church but do want to know more about it in order to understand their Catholic loved ones better. Please consider signing up for RCIA inquiry classes this fall. In the meantime, do talk to your parish priest. He may have some suggestions for you to follow in the long meantime.

Easter Joy…:clapping::extrahappy: awesome post!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Catholics can be permitted to marry non-believers, under the correct circumstances to make the marriage validly sacramental.)

We should clarify what sacramental and non-believers mean. Two baptised persons can be sacramentally married. But if non-believer would mean non baptized then the marriage is not sacramental but could be valid. there is a difference between sacramental, valid, non believer, non baptized.

Baptism is the gateway sacrament so one cannot enter into any other sacrament without it. This is why the Church teaches that only two Baptized people can enter into baptism if the poster meant non-believer as Non Catholic but still christian then the two would probably be baptized.

In short.

Person A (baptized) marries person B (not baptized) it could be a VALID marriage but it would not be a sacramental one.

 

[St_Francis]

We should clarify what sacramental and non-believers mean. Two baptised persons can be sacramentally married. But if non-believer would mean non baptized then the marriage is not sacramental but could be valid. there is a difference between sacramental, valid, non believer, non baptized.

Baptism is the gateway sacrament so one cannot enter into any other sacrament without it. This is why the Church teaches that only two Baptized people can enter into baptism if the poster meant non-believer as Non Catholic but still christian then the two would probably be baptized.

In short.

Person A (baptized) marries person B (not baptized) it could be a VALID marriage but it would not be a sacramental one.

Oh… this is confusing? I was under the impression a baptized person could marry a non-baptized person in the Church or have their marriage blessed by the Church–is this jot the case? Or would the marriage, altho performed in a Catholic church, not be sacramental?