Atheisim

[Savitar65]

Hi i’m an athiest and I have a question. I’ve always wondered what are your views on atheisim.

 

[blazerdave]

Oh wow! Not an easy question, because I’m about as far from atheism as it gets. I don’t agree with the position, but I will love the people who hold it and won’t look down on them. Love of God and love of neighbor summarize the Christian life, so I certainly seek to love my neighbor - atheists included. And when it comes to discussions of faith, I prefer a discussion among friends to the kind of cynical “debates” (if you can call them debates) that are so prevalent these days. So, even though I can’t really understand the atheist mindset, I can still show love and friendliness to the people who don’t believe in God. Obviously, I don’t care for their position at all. But if we work or play sports or grow up together, we are “neighbors” already. Sometimes I can’t demonstrate God to them in a way that is convincing proof, but that’s not my calling. All I can do is show what a wretched sinner I was (and am), and how He has freed me from things I could never have beaten on my own. That can reveal Him to them in my own life. And I’m praying that God will reveal Himself to them in a time and place of His choosing.

 

[Izdaari]

As the poll is worded, I’m not sure how to vote. I do believe atheism is incorrect, so I want to vote that it’s wrong. But if someone wants to be wrong about the existence of God, I don’t have a problem. If you want to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I don’t have a problem. If you want to worship Moloch, well, I do have a problem with that, since it involves child sacrifice.

 

[latin_rite]

Hi i’m an athiest and I have a question. I’ve always wondered what are your views on atheisim.

I have no problem with it. It’s a personal choice. I sort of agree with izdaari. I don’t think its right. But i have no problem with someone being an atheist. Some of my best friends are atheist…hahaha. Nah serious though. If an atheist wanna debate i’ll debate. As long as it’s kept respectful. Which some people on both sides of the fence don’t do.

 

[srlucado]

I don’t think it’s wrong, just mistaken.

 

[Sideline]

As the poll is worded, I’m not sure how to vote. I do believe atheism is incorrect, so I want to vote that it’s wrong. But if someone wants to be wrong about the existence of God, I don’t have a problem. If you want to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I don’t have a problem. If you want to worship Moloch, well, I do have a problem with that, since it involves child sacrifice.

What if I want to be a reformed Molochist? We don’t actually sacrifice children, but we do give them stern looks from time to time. Occasionally, we go so far as putting them on a sacrificial alter… we call it a naughty chair… but the idea is the same.

About how the question, agree it is worded strangely. I don’t believe in any gods, but I was wondering how I would answer if you swapped the word Catholic for atheist. I wouldn’t know how to answer. It depends on whether we are speaking factually or morally. I can only imagine that all Catholics think that it is factually wrong… because if they didn’t they would be atheists.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I couldn’t vote on the poll due to the choices but I will say I have very little problems with anyone including atheists. I do, however, have problems with their beliefs and, as it turns out, they have problems with mine.

God bless

 

[JulieAA]

I say that it takes more faith to believe there is no God, than to believe there is an Almighty God!

 

[AntiTheist]

I say that it takes more faith to believe there is no God, than to believe there is an Almighty God!

It doesn’t. Atheism, by definition (“without gods”) is not believing in gods, the lack of faith and belief in such beings.

By definition, a lack of faith cannot take more faith than faith.

 

[JulieAA]

It doesn’t. Atheism, by definition (“without gods”) is not believing in gods, the lack of faith and belief in such beings.

By definition, a lack of faith cannot take more faith than faith.

Oh, I did not say you “believed” in a god…I said you would need more faith to believe there is no God! This may be a hard thing to grasp (said lovingly) but to see the miracle of babies being born, the universe in all of it’s complexities, the awe of DNA and it’s properties and how all things come together, the beauty of nature, the wonders we see in our everyday life…all of these things, brings me to believe that to believe there is no Creator in all of this, one would need a tremendous amount of faith indeed!

 

[AntiTheist]

Oh, I did not say you “believed” in a god

You said that atheists have “more faith.” I’m pointing out that atheism isn’t a “faith,” it’s the absence of faith.

By definition, it doesn’t require more faith not to have faith – to claim otherwise is to misunderstand what faith is.

To be clear, the point that I think you’re trying to make is that “You atheists have faith that all of this wonderful orderly universe just happened by accident! What a leap of faith!”

And if that’s the point you’re trying to make, you misunderstand atheism. Atheism isn’t the claim that “everything happened by accident” – atheism is the non-belief in god.

Now an atheist might believe that “everything happened by accident,” but that’s not atheism.

 

[JulieAA]

You said that atheists have “more faith.” I’m pointing out that atheism isn’t a “faith,” it’s the absence of faith.

By definition, it doesn’t require more faith not to have faith – to claim otherwise is to misunderstand what faith is.

To be clear, the point that I think you’re trying to make is that “You atheists have faith that all of this wonderful orderly universe just happened by accident! What a leap of faith!”

And if that’s the point you’re trying to make, you misunderstand atheism. Atheism isn’t the claim that “everything happened by accident” – atheism is the non-belief in god.

Now an atheist might believe that “everything happened by accident,” but that’s not atheism.

Please clarify something for me, so I may understand what the atheist actually does believe. You absolutely reject the idea of a Creator and you say that atheism is the non-belief in a god. If you can not explain to me how this world came into existance (premordial soup???) how can you say without the slightly doubt in your mind and heart that there is no God? I honestly do not understand this.

 

[AntiTheist]

Please clarify something for me, so I may understand what the atheist actually does believe.

To be clear, atheists do not believe in gods. That’s it. That’s what qualifies a person to be an atheist.

Atheists can believe absolutely anything else. Most atheists, in the West anyway, tend to be skeptics, rationalists, and (usually) materialists. There are some “new agey” type atheists who believe in spiritual things (souls, etc.). There are a tiny handful of lunatics called Raelians, who believe that aliens created human life – but because they don’t believe in gods, they are technically atheists also.

So if you ask “what do atheists believe?” you can only ask an individual atheist what it is that he actually believes, as the label “atheist” simply tells you what he does not believe.

If you can not explain to me how this world came into existance (premordial soup???)

I cannot explain how this world came into existence. To the best of human knowledge, we know that almost 14 billion years ago, the universe existed as a highly compressed point that began to rapidly expand (the “Big Bang”). No one knows why it began to expand or what came before that moment (or if there was even a “before” that moment).

how can you say without the slightly doubt in your mind and heart that there is no God?

Well, being that no one knows, my position on the question of the origin of the universe is “I don’t know.”

Since I am only aware of evidence for the existence of physical things, I think that there is a great likelihood that the cause of the Big Bang – if we ever discover it – will be discovered to be physical. As such, I think the possibility of a supernatural “creator” – whether your god or some other god – is highly unlikely.

But I do not totally rule out the possibility that there is a supernatural being or creator of some kind. I am open to evidence, and if there is ever any convincing evidence that there is some kind of supernatural world or that a supernatural being created the universe, I would accept it.

 

[JulieAA]

So, because you say that “you are open to evidence”, does that mean you are actual an agnostic rather than an atheist?

 

[AntiTheist]

So, because you say that “you are open to evidence”, does that mean you are actual an agnostic rather than an atheist?

Depends on how you’re defining the words.

I use “atheist” to mean “someone who does not have a belief in god,” and this includes people who are “not sure” about the question. Technically, I describe myself as an “agnostic atheist” in some contexts, which means that I claim not to know (agnostic) and I claim not to believe (atheist).

In some different contexts, there are distinctions like “strong atheism” (actively believing that there is no god) and “weak atheism” (lacking a belief in god).

I realize that different people can use different definitions – that’s why I find these labels incredibly unhelpful. It’s more useful to say that I don’t believe in god and don’t see any good evidence or reason to accept that belief. Label me whatever you’d like.

Thanks, by the way, for your respectful tone and nice attitude: it’s rather refreshing. I’d be happy to answer any other questions you have, or any other questions from anyone who is as nice as you.

 

[Sideline]

Please clarify something for me, so I may understand what the atheist actually does believe. You absolutely reject the idea of a Creator and you say that atheism is the non-belief in a god. If you can not explain to me how this world came into existance (premordial soup???) how can you say without the slightly doubt in your mind and heart that there is no God? I honestly do not understand this.

A lot of people say that atheism is about lack of evidence. That’s not quite it though. The reason someone like me doesn’t believe in a god is because I look at all the evidence. This is also a hard concept to grasp (said with respect ).

But before I explain that, I can’t tell how most chemical reactions work. I know that rust is oxidizing metal, but I haven’t got a clue how air mixes with iron. Why helium doesn’t mix with anything. I also don’t understand why people would age differently if one person is travelling at the speed of light; why doesn’t the person travelling age faster when they are on the return trip?

My ignorance is truly astounding, but that doesn’t mean that I need to invoke God as my explanation. I don’t need to invoke anything other than a natural explanation. Every year we make new discoveries that push back the need for a supernatural explanation. Newton claimed that the movement of the planets needed a creator to explain it, La Place didn’t need that hypothesis. There is actually more than one model for how life came to be. It isn’t yet clear which is the right one, and all the pieces haven’t been found yet, but you would be surprised at how well it is understood. It also doesn’t need any supernatural explanation. But so far I’ve only explained why I don’t think I need to invoke a god. I haven’t explained what I base the idea there is no God on.

Okay, let’s consider all the evidence. The birth of a child, the wonderful beauty of a sunset, the miracle of love, the majesty of life, and the personal experience of many people are all quite impressive.

Congenital defects, mental illness, parasitism; the fact that nearly everything eats something else; that nearly everything being eaten suffers immensely; that the structure of DNA is such that species can get sick from other species; that we have a blind spot in the middle of our vision that we need to compensate for; that we can’t hear, taste, feel, smell, or see the vast majority of things that are going to kill us; that most of the universe is uninhabitable; the fact that prayer works as often as placebo, no more no less; the fact that all of the holy books of the world disagree and are reinterpreted every time the moral standards of human society change, etc. There is a lot of stuff that seems to be more a product of happenstance and human imagination than divine planning.

If I look at all the times I’ve won at chess, you would think I’m a chess genius. I have won literally hundreds and hundreds of games. I’ve even beat a national champion in two out of 3 games. Pretty good, isn’t it? But let’s consider the other evidence: I have lost literally thousands of games, and the national champion was so drunk that he fell down after playing me. I’m still a good player (the national champion beat the next 2 people he played), but I’m not a great one.

If you look at all of the miraculous seeming things in the universe it certainly does seem like there is a god, but if I look at everything I know about the universe, good and bad, wonderfully orchestrated and just plain stupid, then I don’t think there is a god.

 

[JulieAA]

Thank you, and I can assure you that I am truly seeking to understand the mind and the heart of either, as you say, atheists or agnostics!

May I ask another question of you and, if I am belaboring the point, please tell me and I will stop.

Have you or any of your family members ever been believers? If so, was there something in your life that made you turn your back on God?

 

[callmecharles]

I’m reluctant to vote in such a poll. But if I did, I’d definitely vote that it’s wrong. I spent about five years of my life as an atheist. Then God granted me the gift of misery.

So, I don’t have a problem with atheism really. Any criticism I have is limited to the anti-religious beliefs of some individual atheists.

 

[AntiTheist]

First of all, three cheers for Sideline’s excellent post above.

Have you or any of your family members ever been believers? If so, was there something in your life that made you turn your back on God?

I think one of the biggest misunderstandings of atheism is the assumption that its root is emotional.

There’s this attitude that, “Oh, if you don’t believe in god, well, something must have happened to turn you against him!”

And I’m sure that’s true for some atheists. I am very much willing to bet that there are atheists who lack belief in gods for what I would consider bad reasons (i.e. some sort of emotional reaction to an event).

I’m glad to report that nothing in particular “happened” to me to make me an atheist. I was raised by lapsed Catholics who taught me to believe in god and sent me to Catholic school, where I received instruction in the faith in forms of daily religion classes, and all of the attending rites of Catholic passage, all the way up to confirmation.

In fact, I have never not gone to a Catholic school. I’ve taken extensive classes on scriptural studies and Bible history, and I know a fair amount (though I’m sure I’ve forgotten a good deal of it).

Nothing in particular “happened.” When I was around eleven or twelve, I rationally concluded that there was not enough evidence for me to believe in any religion. I clung to a kind of deism and/or pantheism for about a decade until I realized that those “beliefs” didn’t really mean anything and also had no evidence supporting them. So I finally started calling myself an atheist.

I have no specific personal animosity against religion, which I have very nice memories of. I do, however, think that in general religions aren’t a good thing for the world – this is not to say that religions can’t do good, just that I don’t think that they’re overall positive forces. My preference is for as many people as possible to embrace reality, that which can be supported by evidence.

That’s pretty much it.

 

[JulieAA]

Good morning, Sideline, and thank you for explaining your belief system as you understand. Guess, the bottom line is that I believe that when I was created, God put into my heart and soul (as He does everyone) to seek Him out. I am always seeking to understand Him. I understand fully what you said about the evils of the world, and I agree with that; however, I believe that evil entered the world through sin. It was not what God intended; however, through our pride and arrogance, we fell. But, the good news is that Jesus Christ came, died and was resurrected and restore our life with the Father. I know already what you are thinking…how does she know this for sure. I can tell you, truthfully, honestly and with all conviction of my heart and soul, that this is true. I can tell you countless things that have happened in my life and in my family’s life that were brutal, but you know, I never felt alone in all of that pain. I knew in my heart, that He was carrying me. I know at the end of my life that I will be with Him for all eternity and every tear will be wiped away. No, this is not the story of a lunatic, but a follower of Jesus Christ. To a non-believer, this undoubtedly sounds like a person in denial…trust me, my friend, it is not!