Atheisim

[j1akey]

connorj1994:

I think that you need more faith to be a person who believes in the big bang and evolution than to believe that there is a God who created all things. Rather then this god of most atheist believe in named “random chance”. What are the odds of some on putting some paint and canvas into a microwave and the Mona Lisa coming out? Also isn’t a human being more complex than a painting?

Now my Question for an atheist. Why can you preach there is no god in schools and in the work place? But when i open my mouth about Christ i get hammered! How come muslims can pray facing mecca 5 times a day in the open. But when i have to go in a private place to pray and can’t really tell people?

So it takes more “faith” to “believe” in evolution, something that is a scientifically verifiable and observable phenomenon than it does to believe in a god, something that is by its very nature supernatural and unknown. The big bang, while not directly observable today obviously because it happened billions of years ago, is also a valid scientific theory based on current observable data that we can see today. Evolution and the big bang are scientific theories that so far withstood scientific analysis from the smartest people in the world. There is no “belief” involved here. If you choose to detach yourself from the reality that you live in then fine but it has nothing to do with belief.

As for the second part here, I’ve personally never seen any muslims pray in the open and I used to live in Detroit which has or at least had the biggest muslim population in the US. I have however seen plenty of people pray at resturaunts when they have their meal without any problems.

Schools are places of learning, not churches, and no learning about faith and the bible is not an education and does not teach people critical skills for when they enter the world for which school is intended to do so.

Religion doesn’t need to be in every aspect of peoples lives, when I go to work I expect to be able to work and do my job and if someone wants to talk to me about religion during lunch or debate the issue then fine but work is work. It has nothing to do with being catholic, it’s all religions. The problem comes when people preach their religion to others at work and try to convert them which creates an uncomfortable work environment. I used to work with a Jehovas Witness and every week she’d come up with something new to talk about how great it is. I’m not there to convert I’m there to get my job done and bring home the bacon.

Athiests don’t have problems with people that have religion, we have a problem with people trying to always covert us and get us to join their “team”.

 

[AntiTheist]

Why can you preach there is no god in schools and in the work place? But when i open my mouth about Christ i get hammered! How come muslims can pray facing mecca 5 times a day in the open. But when i have to go in a private place to pray and can’t really tell people?

j1akey addressed this post quite well, but as far as this goes: I’ve never “preached there is no god” in schools or the workplace, and I’m not aware of any cases where people have done so – I’d be against it, if there were cases of this silliness.

As for public prayer, it was supposedly said by Jesus of Nazareth that more value comes from private prayer, in which you do not trumpet your piety for the whole world to see.

 

[Dylpickleh8]

Hello.
I don’t mind atheists, as long as we keep our religious views to ourselves.
I won’t bother you, if you do the same.

 

[j1akey]

JulieAA:

You also say “in my mind I know the truth and that truth exists without any kind of god”. What is truth? Do you believe that you are in control of your life? You told me that you don’t feel as if your life is missing anything, well, that may be correct for you as you have not experienced faith itself. Don’t close the door on seeking the truth, it is too important for you to dismiss. My friend, to think that when you die you cease to exist, has to be horrible to deal with all by yourself. Not to know in your heart that you will see your love ones again, is heartbeaking.

The problem is with this sort of thing is that everyone has their own “truth”. My truth is what I can see and observe or collect information on. My truth is the reality in front of me. I don’t believe I’m in control of my life, I know I’m in control of my life. There are of course things I can’t control like if I get hit by lightning or some drunk driver mows me down like last weeks grass clippings but my life is my own to do what I wish.

When I was growing up I did try to believe, I really did but I was never really able to convince myself of it. I always thought that things I didn’t understand was God. I mean I used to think that when my ears would ring once in a while that it God talking to me somehow and I just didn’t understand what he was saying because I was told that God speaks to us all. The problem is I was just eating up what people told me because I was 8 and didn’t know anything. Even then I felt like I was just lying to myself and once I was old enough to think for myself and actually did so, then I realized it’s just smoke and mirrors.

Eternal happyness is the sales pitch and “all” I need to do is force myself to believe, which is to basically lie to myself until the day I die. That’s really not acceptable to me and it really just sounds like snake oil salesmanship which is the same basic sales pitch as every other God out there.

As far as what happens when I die? No clue, but the fact that I don’t know doesn’t depress me at all. And in reality no one else on this planet does either. It’s not like anyone has ever died and come back and told their story. I’m not talking about near death experiences that people claim to have, I’m talking dead and buried. The only concept of death that we have is told by other people that have never died so they’re not any more qualified either.

The here and now is what matters to me. Not an afterlife that may or may not even exist. If there is an afterlife I sure don’t want to be there for an eternity, that’s a loooooong time. Sound more like prison.

 

[jakasaki]

Hello.
I don’t mind atheists, as long as we keep our religious views to ourselves.
I won’t bother you, if you do the same.

I don’t mind atheists and a few of my friends are just that.

They never get into my face when I go to Church nor do they display any animosity between us all because I’m a Christian, as well as some of my friends.

They come to my house for Christmas dinners and Easter dinners and they have no problem with the celebrations… They are people and human… just like you and me…

I would like to share a joke one of my atheist friend tells at Easter time… I don’t know if he invented this joke because he was born and raised Catholic but fell out of the faith in his early 20’s. This man is now over 50+ years old.

It goes like this…

An Atheist is walking through the woods in a beautiful forest, enjoying the sun, the birds and it’s beauty.

All of the sudden a big bear comes running toward the Atheist… The Atheist is running for his life but the bear catches up…

He falls to the ground and the bear stands on his 2 hind legs and is about to claw the Athiest to death.

The man screams out loud… Oh My God!!! ----- NOOOOOO!!!

Then all of the sudden everything goes quite and a light appears with a voice. The bear is frozen on it’s tracks.

The voice said… “yes my child… you called for me…?”

And the Atheist said… well… yes… well… no… I don’t believe in you… it was just an expression…

And the voice said… “well then… go about your business with the bear as it’s ready to strike you dead”.

And the Atheist said… “well, I’m sorry I still don’t believe in you… but can you please make this bear a Christian”.

And the voice said… “very well… I shall make the bear a Christian”

And poof, the light and the voice was gone and the bear was a Christian.

The man now, still lying on the ground sees the bear put it’s striking claw down to his chin and bring his other claw to his chin, joining paws and the bear started to pray and said…

"Dear Lord, I thank you each and every day for this food which I’m about to receive"…

Whack!

 

[Sideline]

You tell us that you are waiting for a connection with God. Please explain (if you care to do this) exactly what connection are you waiting for.

Hi JulieAA. I’m pretty sure that’s not what I said. What I did say that was that if I had had an experience of God (like you described in your post), I would probably had continued to believe despite my intellectual reservations. The converse is also true, if I found that the evidence for a god outweighed the evidence for a naturalistic explanation of my experiences, then I would have continued to believe despite having no personal experience of God. Of course, you could argue that I did experience God, I just didn’t realize it at the time. But that would mean that experiencing God is indistinguishable from not experiencing him.

Sideline, He is already here! He is waiting and longing for His son to return to Him. You know better than most of us (seminary training) that “love” is not a feeling, it is a relationship. If He did not care for you, Sideline, why did He die for you? He longs for you!

I’m pretty sure He didn’t die for me. Believing that would pretty much put me in the non-atheist camp.

My relationship with God is indistinguishable with my relationship my couch. Actually, that’s not true, I can locate and interact with couch in a meaningful way. I really don’t need to sound snide, but what you are saying make no intellectual, meaningful, or emotional sense to me. I spent decades trying to make sense of this relationship. Several times I felt quite down about it, and felt angry at God for the feeling of emptiness I felt. Do you know what I did then? I told myself that I needed to grow in my faith and not put God to the test. I tried to tell myself that there were treasures in heaven, etc. It was quite the relief to realize, I’m angry at something that doesn’t exist.

God felt total pain sending His only beloved Son to the cross for us…I can not even comprehend that pain, nor that amount of love! Well, back to my darling daughter. After years and years, not only did God send us a child…He sent us twins!! He doubled our blessings!!

Then why did he do it? Why not just forgive us? Look, I’m not trying to shake your faith here, but don’t you find it just a tiny bit odd that an all-forgiving God just… forgive us?

 

[JulieAA]

Then why did he do it? Why not just forgive us? Look, I’m not trying to shake your faith here, but don’t you find it just a tiny bit odd that an all-forgiving God just… forgive us?

Why did He do it?..because He loves you more than you could possible know right now, but you will understand fully someday. Why just forgive us?..He did!, but we have to accept that free gift He has offered to ALL of His children. A perfect sacrifice had to be offered to take away the evils of this world. That sacrifice was/is Jesus Christ Himself.

My friend, please do not worry that you can shake my faith. Satan, himself, has taken me to task and I can assure you one thing: if Jesus was not in the battle with me, I would be totally lost. It is a constant battle with the enemy and myself, but I know the good news because I know Who conquered death and Who conquered our sins! I know how the story ends…praise be His Holy Name!!

 

[Sideline]

A perfect sacrifice had to be offered to take away the evils of this world. That sacrifice was/is Jesus Christ Himself.

Why? Why did a perfect sacrifice have to be offered? He’s God. He could have just said, “Hey, don’t worry about it. I made you with free will, and I made you fallible. I had to do it so you would understand the pain of vexing me. But once you’ve finished suffering in the world, I’ll let you come back.”

See? No need to have himself/his son brutally murdered just to make things right. He could have just given them a time out so they realized that following His will was is better than not following it.

If I really loved someone, I’d forgive them if they expressed genuine sorrow over hurting me. Heck, wouldn’t even have to love them; I’d just have to see that they were sorry and would try not to let it happen again. I certainly wouldn’t expect a perfect sacrifice. I certainly wouldn’t have demanded that from my children.

So, that’s the question I have for you. Why did He need a sacrifice?

 

[Contarini]

Why? Why did a perfect sacrifice have to be offered? He’s God. He could have just said, “Hey, don’t worry about it. I made you with free will, and I made you fallible. I had to do it so you would understand the pain of vexing me. But once you’ve finished suffering in the world, I’ll let you come back.”

See? No need to have himself/his son brutally murdered just to make things right. He could have just given them a time out so they realized that following His will was is better than not following it.

If I really loved someone, I’d forgive them if they expressed genuine sorrow over hurting me. Heck, wouldn’t even have to love them; I’d just have to see that they were sorry and would try not to let it happen again. I certainly wouldn’t expect a perfect sacrifice. I certainly wouldn’t have demanded that from my children.

So, that’s the question I have for you. Why did He need a sacrifice?

Because God is just and doesn’t cheat anyone, not even death/sin/the devil.

This is the answer Christians gave for a thousand years, and more or less the answer the Orthodox would still give. Unfortunately, medieval Western theologians got it into their clever heads that this took away from God’s power, and we’ve had problems with atonement theology ever since.

Edwin

 

[Sideline]

Because God is just and doesn’t cheat anyone, not even death/sin/the devil.

This is the answer Christians gave for a thousand years, and more or less the answer the Orthodox would still give. Unfortunately, medieval Western theologians got it into their clever heads that this took away from God’s power, and we’ve had problems with atonement theology ever since.

Edwin

Well, at least that adds an internal consistency.

 

[Mr_Sun]

Question: Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?
Hear me out on this… Say you are in the Army and you are walking through a street in Baghdad and suddenly a grenade is thrown into your area with you and your Convoy, would an Atheist jump on the grenade? Why should they? If they do, they are just worm food later and they don’t have to worry about anything, right?
Unless you believe in Universalism (is that the right word?)
Then you believe in giving the most amount of people pleasure at the cost of one life. So you sacrifice your own life to save the lives of the 5 guys in your convoy.

However if I don’t think anybody besides a Christian would immediately think out of instinct to dive on a grenade. Atheists might be stalled in making the decision. Christians believe that there is a loving father on the other side waiting for them yet atheists have nothing to look forward to if they were to give their life.

I just listened to Drew Ross’s Podcast Christian with a Brain: Atheist Heroes are Hard to Find
christianwithabrain.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=447851&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ChristianWithABrain+(Christian+with+a+Brain)&utm_content=FeedBurner#

I greatly respect this man and I strongly suggest a listen on his podcast. I think his ideas might conflict with a lot of what Catholics believe in but I haven’t really scrutinized over that much.

I have a gay atheist friend and me and him tried talking about both our views on sexuality (leaving religion out of it completely) and it was IMPOSSIBLE to see how he sees. yah know? Anybody who has tried to talk to a Gay person about their sexuality knows how stumped you feel. But I don’t think its the same with Atheism. I think its just a poor choice created by bad experiences and bad teachers. I KNOW there are bad religious teachers. Their hearts may be in the right place, but their brains aren’t.

 

[j1akey]

Mr Sun:

Question: Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?
Hear me out on this… Say you are in the Army and you are walking through a street in Baghdad and suddenly a grenade is thrown into your area with you and your Convoy, would an Atheist jump on the grenade? Why should they? If they do, they are just worm food later and they don’t have to worry about anything, right?
Unless you believe in Universalism (is that the right word?)
Then you believe in giving the most amount of people pleasure at the cost of one life. So you sacrifice your own life to save the lives of the 5 guys in your convoy.

However if I don’t think anybody besides a Christian would immediately think out of instinct to dive on a grenade. Atheists might be stalled in making the decision. Christians believe that there is a loving father on the other side waiting for them yet atheists have nothing to look forward to if they were to give their life.

If I’m understanding this right, and correct me if I’m wrong it sounds like you’re saying that being a christian is a prerequisite to be willing to sacrifice yourself to save others. I can’t say I agree with this at all. What you’re basically doing is taking the “Jesus died on the cross for us” idea that’s in the bible and just putting it into a different context with the grenade scenario because only christians are willing to sacrifice themselves like Jesus did for us.

Now, to ask someone that hasn’t been in that situation before to hypothetically consider if they’d jump on the grenade or not is rediculous in my opinion because christian or not, no one actually knows how they’re going to react in that situation. You’re on the battlefield, bullets are flying by and you see a grenade. Likely there isn’t even going to be time to think about it and you just need to react and let your instincts take control. Would I freeze in fear? Would I try to get away? Would I dive on it? These are impossible questions to answer unless it actually happens. I can act big and say “yeah I’d jump on that grenade for my unit” and that my military training would kick in and make the right call but when it comes right down to it you just don’t know how’d you react and it has nothing to do with religion or belief in God.

Also just because you’re a christian that doesn’t mean you’d dive on the grenade either, The instinct to preserve your own life regardless of what you believe in is pretty strong and isn’t necessarily overcome by your faith. To imply that christians don’t fear death or even look forward to it by jumping on an explosive device is simply wrong.

 

[Mr_Sun]

If I’m understanding this right, and correct me if I’m wrong it sounds like you’re saying that being a christian is a prerequisite to be willing to sacrifice yourself to save others. I can’t say I agree with this at all. What you’re basically doing is taking the “Jesus died on the cross for us” idea that’s in the bible and just putting it into a different context with the grenade scenario because only christians are willing to sacrifice themselves like Jesus did for us.

Now, to ask someone that hasn’t been in that situation before to hypothetically consider if they’d jump on the grenade or not is rediculous in my opinion because christian or not, no one actually knows how they’re going to react in that situation. You’re on the battlefield, bullets are flying by and you see a grenade. Likely there isn’t even going to be time to think about it and you just need to react and let your instincts take control. Would I freeze in fear? Would I try to get away? Would I dive on it? These are impossible questions to answer unless it actually happens. I can act big and say “yeah I’d jump on that grenade for my unit” and that my military training would kick in and make the right call but when it comes right down to it you just don’t know how’d you react and it has nothing to do with religion or belief in God.

Also just because you’re a christian that doesn’t mean you’d dive on the grenade either, The instinct to preserve your own life regardless of what you believe in is pretty strong and isn’t necessarily overcome by your faith. To imply that christians don’t fear death or even look forward to it by jumping on an explosive device is simply wrong.

No I totally agree and I am sorry but I left out a part that was in the podcast I listened to.

A hero is somebody who would give up anything to help or save somebody. Some people view their favourite hockey player as their hero because of the good morals he has. no he is an Idol. this may be irrelevant to what we say but it may come in handy later in the discussion from seeing other threads like this on my previous majority atheist forum I came from.

I didn’t mean to say that any Christian would dive on the grenade. I wouldn’t! I would run away and hope my guys would do the same. But there are some cases of guys who have done this exact thing.

The podcast really describes what I am trying to say better. I cant really explain it but Drew Ross really points out the flaws on both sides. Most religious people wouldn’t do that because EVERYBODY has some selfishness in them, but then Christians have that doubt of what is right and what is wrong.

really I cant explain it, listen to the podcast. its only 30 min long if I remember correctly but even then its really enlightening.

 

[Sideline]

Question: Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?
Hear me out on this… Say you are in the Army and you are walking through a street in Baghdad and suddenly a grenade is thrown into your area with you and your Convoy, would an Atheist jump on the grenade? Why should they? If they do, they are just worm food later and they don’t have to worry about anything, right?

That’s a fair question. Let’s look at it from my perspective. This is the only life I’ve got. It does make it rather precious to me, but it also makes the people I love rather precious to me too. If I don’t call my Mom to tell her I love her, then she isn’t going to know. From my perspective, she isn’t going to get to heaven and discover how important she is to me. I’m not going to get another chance to tell her I love her if she dies. (That reminds me, I’ve got something I’ve got to do this afternoon.) The same can be said for all of my friends.

I know it may be hard to believe, but I care about some of those people more than I care about myself. I also have values that I hold very dear. I, like many people, want to see myself as being a hero. Will it matter after I’m dead? I don’t believe it will. Does it matter to me while I am alive? You betcha.

Unless you believe in Universalism (is that the right word?)

You are thinking of Utilitarianism.

However if I don’t think anybody besides a Christian would immediately think out of instinct to dive on a grenade

.

I don’t know, I’ve met some pretty freaking selfish Christians. I also don’t find Christians, as a rule, love people more than non-Christians.

Atheists might be stalled in making the decision. Christians believe that there is a loving father on the other side waiting for them yet atheists have nothing to look forward to if they were to give their life.

Interesting, so Christians would do it because they have less to lose. That is actually an argument for atheists being more caring. When I put myself in harm’s way for a friend, I am risking everything for them; you are trading up to a better life.

 

[Mr_Sun]

Again, listen to the podcast. I cannot explain it. I just cant explain it as good as Drew does.

there ARE selfish Christians and yes you love your family and friends, you went on through life together and that means a lot. both Christians and Atheists can relate to that. but maaaaaaybe one of the “eccentric/radical” religious people would do that without a doubt. and like you said, nobody knows unless they have been in the situation themselves. We can just look at what people who HAVE done it and TRY and understand what was going through their brain when it happened.

anyway thats all you can squeeze out of me. I cant explain my views any further. I am still learning a lot lately and threads like this help EVERYONE learn.

 

[AntiTheist]

Question: Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?
Hear me out on this… Say you are in the Army and you are walking through a street in Baghdad and suddenly a grenade is thrown into your area with you and your Convoy, would an Atheist jump on the grenade? Why should they? If they do, they are just worm food later and they don’t have to worry about anything, right?

Quite apart from religious belief, people who have deep love for others – family, partners, friends with close bonds (and a military unit typically does develop very close bonds) – tend to make sacrifices for those that they love. Whether those people believe in gods or not is more or less irrelevant, I would say.

Probably a better example would be a parent dying for a child. I would wager that many parents would be willing to risk their lives for their children, regardless of whether those parents are god-believers or not.

Heck, just look at the animal kingdom: how many parents make extreme sacrifices for the sake of offspring? (if you’ve seen march of the penguins…or just any animal show where the mother risks her life for the sake of her babies…you know what I mean)

I don’t think religious belief is all that relevant to the question.

But look how you’ve phrased it: “Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?” The implication is that not believing in an afterlife actually makes a person selfish; and then the example you give is an example of extreme self-sacrifice that you admit that you and most other people would not do.

So I’m at a loss to explain how you think that would be convincing.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Quite apart from religious belief, people who have deep love for others – family, partners, friends with close bonds (and a military unit typically does develop very close bonds) – tend to make sacrifices for those that they love. Whether those people believe in gods or not is more or less irrelevant, I would say.

Probably a better example would be a parent dying for a child. I would wager that many parents would be willing to risk their lives for their children, regardless of whether those parents are god-believers or not.

Heck, just look at the animal kingdom: how many parents make extreme sacrifices for the sake of offspring? (if you’ve seen march of the penguins…or just any animal show where the mother risks her life for the sake of her babies…you know what I mean)

I don’t think religious belief is all that relevant to the question.

But look how you’ve phrased it: “Since this is your only life you get to live, wouldn’t that make you selfish?” The implication is that not believing in an afterlife actually makes a person selfish; and then the example you give is an example of extreme self-sacrifice that you admit that you and most other people would not do.

So I’m at a loss to explain how you think that would be convincing.

One, I believe that atheism isn’t an intellectual problem, even though it has many intellectual symptoms. Atheism is a problem of the will, the human heart. I know this because I use to be one. Intellectual arguments won’t ultimately change the mind of an atheist. They have closed their heart to God’s love and God is not a tyrant. He’ll let them have their way. Whether they come back to their senses only God can really know.

Religious belief is relevant. “There are no atheists in foxholes…”

As far as sacrifices go a Christian can explain why they make the sacrifice for others; because they love them.

Let me stress the next sentence so I don’t get blasted by every atheist on this board…
**That’s not to say that someone who holds to atheism can’t love **…
but they can’t logically answer why.

There is no evolutionary or practical benefit to self-sacrifice. So why do it?

Two. Deferring to the natural world as an example of sacrifice or even morality is difficult. For every species who fight and sacrifice to protect their young there are many others who outright kill their young for no apparent reason. The same reason is why I neglect to appeal to nature on morality. The natural world is red in tooth and claw.

Our world is a fallen world. The beauty and diversity and order reflect well the mind of an intelligent Creator. Without this order the materialistic and empirical sciences would be impossible. But just because science can’t prove or disprove the existence of the divine does not mean that the divine does not exist. It just means that science must admit that it has limits to what it can discover by the scientific method.

Humanity finds itself in the unique position-pardon the crudeness of the terms-being an animal and also being more than an animal. We (Catholics)would call it being between the finite and the infinite. We are keenly aware that where we are is not where we ought to be. That this world falls short of what we inherently believe life should be.

Three. The implication is that there is no logical reason for the atheist to live unselfishly. If this life is all that there is why whould you give all that you have away in order that others would enjoy what you once had? If you argue that this atheist utopia would share what they had with one-another that is severely begging the question. Of the progressive/atheist governments that had existed in the 20th century-Communism and Naziism-these were both oppressive, corrupt and deadly.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Sideline, have you ever considered Thomas Aquinas’ Five Ways?

 

[Sideline]

One, I believe that atheism isn’t an intellectual problem, even though it has many intellectual symptoms. Atheism is a problem of the will, the human heart. I know this because I use to be one.

Catholics are blind to reason and enjoy beating themselves up over imagined wrongs. I know because this because I was one.

Doesn’t that sound really insulting? I don’t know that Catholics think. I know what Catholicism teaches, and I know what I was like when I was a Catholic. However, it is the height of arrogance to think that I have some sort of insight into what Catholics as a group think.

You know what you were like, but don’t speak for me.

Religious belief is relevant. “There are no atheists in foxholes…”

Yes, there are. I’ve known some.

As far as sacrifices go a Christian can explain why they make the sacrifice for others; because they love them.

If you read a few posts back, you will see that at least one Christian disagrees with you.

but they can’t logically answer why.

There is no evolutionary or practical benefit to self-sacrifice. So why do it?

Spoken like someone who hasn’t studied human evolutionary psychology. There are several books you can read on the subject. There are evolutionary explanations for altruism, cooperation, love, affection, humour, faith, traditions, order, hierarchies, and beauty. You just have to study up on them.

 

[Sideline]

Sideline, have you ever considered Thomas Aquinas’ Five Ways?

Yes, I wrote two papers on it. One in favour of it, and another refuting it.