Atheism and the Church

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OMG…you’re an AUSSIE!

I got one of my science degrees at the University of Southern Queensland in Toowoomba (one of the most boring places on earth…thank god for the Gold Coast!)
 
There is a big difference between controlling a church and actually controlling people, or cant you tell the difference?
1.) If the Pope made a papal bull on all catholics, would you, or would you not be expected to follow it?

2.) Does the Pope have the power to excommunicate Catholics?
 
Wow what a lot of issues just to help out

Issue 1) I am sorry you lost your wife. It may interest you to know many of us have spent hours in Church quietly saying “Why?, How does the help?” God does not come down materialize and explain the answers to us. So we may have a bit in common there.

Issue 2) Civil is a requirement of both sides, so let’s everyone try to perform as such

Issue 3) Slavery There are many issues here
____a) Men with decent intentions acting poorly in an unknowing manner, this is really a form of ignorance.
____b) Slavery has many forms which is our current ignorance. We tend to look only at race based slavery being held together through actions of terror. That does occur but is not a true understanding of slavery. Many slaves were really employees who willingly accepted employment. For example I think it was Ben Franklin who was in a form of slavery for several years. The gambit of slavery is so wide grouping it under a single class confuses the issue.
____c) Christians came from Jew who were in slavery for generations
____d) IMO The wealth societies in Greece & Egypt and others often hired poor people for all forms of slavery to include sexual. The poor Jews suffered from this, personally I think this is why Leviticus exists.

So in summary the Church has always held to mistreat another human is wrong. AND the working agreement between humans is not a Church issue unless it violates God’s commandments. So having a slave does not violate Church teaching even today.

Issue 4) working 10 posts back is a problem from both of us. I am going to post less per day in an attempt to assist on the issue.

Now back to morals (please)
 
**Now back to morals **
In an earlier post you mentioned that one source of the moral base is learning. This indicates the individual sets all his personal morals through accepting and rejecting potential morals. In another post it was indicated “Humanism” is a source maybe dependent or independent of each other. Now may be I confused the issue by stating early that humanism=God, so I’ll slow down on that issue.

So here we go in the earlier post morals are only what the individual defines morals to be. The key here is it is only what the individual thinks not intrinsic. In the latter case the individual in theory subordinates* to a group of such thinkers but again morals are only what the group thinks not intrinsic. Is this accurate to you?
  • In theory all thinkers are equal, exactly equal, so no thinker is smarter, or better at influencing the group, however in the real world the smart and more manipulative thinkers control a disproportional amount of the group decision
 
the atheistic morals…its quite simple, just treat people the way you want people to treat you. thats something we learn as we grow up, with or without religion.
 
the atheistic morals…its quite simple, just treat people the way you want people to treat you. thats something we learn as we grow up, with or without religion.
So when a criminal action occurs it was the criminal simply asking for a new method of treatment? One who robs really desired to be robbed??, it does not seem to work
 
So when a criminal action occurs it was the criminal simply asking for a new method of treatment? One who robs really desired to be robbed??, it does not seem to work
my friend, you can bend any rule whether religious or not. still the golden rule is very largely more beneficial than harmful. we all learn the value of reciprocity even before we learned the intricacies of religious rules.

and one who robs isnt really thinking of reciprocity. rather they ignore the golden rule. every moral rule out there, religious or not, is useless when ignored. you know, most thieves & criminals out there have religion, many are catholics. reminds me of the Godfather.
 
Wow what a lot of issues just to help out

Issue 1) I am sorry you lost your wife. It may interest you to know many of us have spent hours in Church quietly saying “Why?, How does the help?” God does not come down materialize and explain the answers to us. So we may have a bit in common there.

Issue 2) Civil is a requirement of both sides, so let’s everyone try to perform as such

Issue 3) Slavery There are many issues here
____a) Men with decent intentions acting poorly in an unknowing manner, this is really a form of ignorance.
____b) Slavery has many forms which is our current ignorance. We tend to look only at race based slavery being held together through actions of terror. That does occur but is not a true understanding of slavery. Many slaves were really employees who willingly accepted employment. For example I think it was Ben Franklin who was in a form of slavery for several years. The gambit of slavery is so wide grouping it under a single class confuses the issue.
____c) Christians came from Jew who were in slavery for generations
____d) IMO The wealth societies in Greece & Egypt and others often hired poor people for all forms of slavery to include sexual. The poor Jews suffered from this, personally I think this is why Leviticus exists.

So in summary the Church has always held to mistreat another human is wrong. AND the working agreement between humans is not a Church issue unless it violates God’s commandments. So having a slave does not violate Church teaching even today.

Issue 4) working 10 posts back is a problem from both of us. I am going to post less per day in an attempt to assist on the issue.

Now back to morals (please)
Sorry, TR. I’m trying to address the morals issue with you, but am besiged from all sides. It’s like fighting a running battle!

Perhaps it would be best if you opened another thread (Morality?) and I’ll join you there?
 
**Now back to morals **
In an earlier post you mentioned that one source of the moral base is learning. This indicates the individual sets all his personal morals through accepting and rejecting potential morals. In another post it was indicated “Humanism” is a source maybe dependent or independent of each other. Now may be I confused the issue by stating early that humanism=God, so I’ll slow down on that issue.
The process of evolution through learning and observation, yes.

When we are born, we have no “concept” of a god, nor of “His” writings, commands nor teachings. We are only aware of that which is in our immediate worldview; mother and father.

Mother feeds us, clothes us, warms us, protects us. She is everything, and we glean our first concepts of what is “right” and what is “wrong” and why. We even learn from her what “right and wrong” mean as concepts in our new world.

We also learn what these concepts mean in the confines of our culture and group. These can differ greatly depending on our cultural heritage, traditions and tribe. The morality of right and wrong is not innate, but learned.

Example: Female circumcision is an accepted practice in much of the Islamic world. According to THEIR moral code, this is not only acceptable and correct, but it is ALSO traditional in their culture.

However abhorrent this practice may seem to you and I in the West, it is part of their moral framework and rationality.

Now, is it morally right or morally wrong? (Remember, they can point out references in the Quran that agree with their view.)
So here we go in the earlier post morals are only what the individual defines morals to be. The key here is it is only what the individual thinks not intrinsic. In the latter case the individual in theory subordinates* to a group of such thinkers but again morals are only what the group thinks not intrinsic. Is this accurate to you?
No. You are confusing the “Blank Slate” theory with the “Developmental Theory.”

The theory of the “Blank Slate” postulates that we all start our lives on equal footing, but that theory has been proven inaccurate. Studies of brain-wave activity as well as activity in contrasting portions of the cerebellum show that this is not true.

The “Developmental Theory” states that we are given to right-side/left-side thinking. Those with accelerated brain function in the right hemisphere are prone to excel in areas of logic and reason (science and mathematics.) Those with accelerated brain function in the left hemisphere are prone to excel in areas of imagination (art and writing).
  • In theory all thinkers are equal, exactly equal, so no thinker is smarter, or better at influencing the group, however in the real world the smart and more manipulative thinkers control a disproportional amount of the group decision
 
The process of evolution through learning and observation, yes.

When we are born, we have no “concept” of a god, nor of “His” writings, commands nor teachings. We are only aware of that which is in our immediate worldview; mother and father.
this sounds like your blank slate? I’ll accept this as your view. I would ask you to consider the reason there are so many forms of god (you may want to say gods) is because we do have a concept of God and if we do not refine (not generate) this concept with other we search for it our self?
Mother feeds us, clothes us, warms us, protects us. She is everything, and we glean our first concepts of what is “right” and what is “wrong” and why. We even learn from her what “right and wrong” mean as concepts in our new world.
But why does she to this, is this a learned behavior from her or a calling?
We also learn what these concepts mean in the confines of our culture and group. These can differ greatly depending on our cultural heritage, traditions and tribe. The morality of right and wrong is not innate, but learned.
I accept this as your point of view. Remember the suggestion that this culture factore maybe why we see what appears to some as different gods
Example: Female circumcision is an accepted practice in much of the Islamic world. According to THEIR moral code, this is not only acceptable and correct, but it is ALSO traditional in their culture.
However abhorrent this practice may seem to you and I in the West, it is part of their moral framework and rationality.
Now, is it morally right or morally wrong? (Remember, they can point out references in the Quran that agree with their view.)
My view is “3.___a” misguided men of good intention
concerning Originally Posted by Texas Roofer So here we go in the earlier post morals are only what the individual defines morals to be. The key here is it is only what the individual thinks not intrinsic. In the latter case the individual in theory subordinates* to a group of such thinkers but again morals are only what the group thinks not intrinsic. Is this accurate to you?
No. You are confusing the “Blank Slate” theory with the “Developmental Theory.”
The theory of the “Blank Slate” postulates that we all start our lives on equal footing, but that theory has been proven inaccurate. Studies of brain-wave activity as well as activity in contrasting portions of the cerebellum show that this is not true.
The “Developmental Theory” states that we are given to right-side/left-side thinking. Those with accelerated brain function in the right hemisphere are prone to excel in areas of logic and reason (science and mathematics.) Those with accelerated brain function in the left hemisphere are prone to excel in areas of imagination (art and writing).
Well here you lose me a little. The fact infants are different is not an issue. how a smart infant has a non blank slate is confusing. Lets look at a very smart infant and a slow child wich defines his morals and which does not?
 
this sounds like your blank slate?
No, blank slate implies no concept “at all.” When we are born, we have a concept of “hunger”, “food”, “warmth”, “cold”, and yes, even “mother”, even if we cannot put words to those concepts.

God is a learned concept.
I’ll accept this as your view. I would ask you to consider the reason there are so many forms of god (you may want to say gods) is because we do have a concept of God and if we do not refine (not generate) this concept with other we search for it our self?
Monotheism (if there truly is such a thing) is the simple evolution of Polytheism. Pretty obvious.
But why does she do this, is this a learned behavior from her or a calling?
No, this is innate, but this is not morality. You wished to discuss morality.
I accept this as your point of view. Remember the suggestion that this culture factor maybe why we see what appears to some as different gods My view is “3.___a” misguided men of good intention
Please elaborate…what is “3.___a”?
Well here you lose me a little. The fact infants are different is not an issue. How a smart infant has a non blank slate is confusing. Lets look at a very smart infant and a slow child which defines his morals and which does not?
Sorry. You were moving into the areas of “intelligence,” not morality. Morality is knowing what is right and wrong, and ethics is the application of that knowledge.

A child’s intelligence should not be a factor in the teachings of the parent, unless the child is so mentally deficient as to not understand the difference with right and wrong on ANY level.
 
It is apparent to me that Wild Eyed Athiest is not a single person but a group who are not only engaging in debate but are out to trap Mountalban. It is not fair that Mountalban is answering not to one contributor but a group who are plotting to catch him out [and failed thus far] 😛

I feel the need to show solidarity with Mountalban and how he is being attacked en-masse. That is the reason why I have reported Wild Eyed Athiest to the mods.
 
Are you asking me to perform a miracle?
Providing unconfirmed reports or “stories” and a photograph of a mummified hand (not attached to any arm by the way) hardly proves your assertion.

Any modern-day “miracles” of limb regeneration that have been scientifically/medically proven to be an Act of God?

I didn’t think so.

As I said, now that we have heard from the supernatural mystic, back to reality.
 
Nope. You post a website that specifically asks “why won’t God heal amputees?” and the implication is God discriminates against amputees. I merely provided a testimony that God does not discriminate.

I am making a point that God does not.

If you read post #3, there another “story” in modern day times, and they have a medical account. Now I know you will not accept that as “Absolute” proof, and anything I can offer up short of a miracle you’ll reject.

By the way I’m not a supernatural mystic, nor did I ever claim that I am.

I am here to help with answers, not to engage in cynicism.
 
Nope. You post a website that specifically asks “why won’t God heal amputees?” and the implication is God discriminates against amputees. I merely provided a testimony that God does not discriminate.
You merely provided fables from thousands of years ago (conveniently un-testable.)
I am making a point that God does not.
And I have contested your point. Now PROVE your point. Show me your evidence. Leave the fables for Sunday School.
If you read post #3, there another “story” in modern day times, and they have a medical account. Now I know you will not accept that as “Absolute” proof, and anything I can offer up short of a miracle you’ll reject.
Post #3 of this thread is from Joel, arguing over the proper usage of the word “Prove”. What are you talking about. Repost it here.
By the way I’m not a supernatural mystic, nor did I ever claim that I am.
You are using examples of both.
I am here to help with answers, not to engage in cynicism.
I am still waiting on the answers. I’ve already heard all the stories. The story of Jonah and the Whale was quite amusing.👍
 
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