Atheism - Paradox

[humble_in_doubt]

God is not bound by “contemporary” time. The Incarnation of the Word of God as Jesus Christ is “the” miraculous historical event and it is for “all times.” There is no greater miracle than this nor can there ever be! “God in His divine nature also takes on human nature as Man!”

How many men will die for something or someone they did not see with their own eyes? Yet, many martyrs back then and also today still believe the testimony of these first Scripture writers who claimed that Jesus was indeed the Son of God because they saw Him die and they saw Him again after He rose from the dead and they saw Him ascend into heaven

The problem is these martyrs weren’t being slaughtered during the lifetime of Christ. The first persecutions of Christians occurred under Nero in around 64 or 65 AD (after the great fire of Rome), several decades after the crucifixion. Beginning in around the second century Christian writers began averring that Nero killed Peter and Paul (and it ultimately stuck).

People kill themselves for Islam today, and not just young children (indeed the 9/11 terrorists were all men in their late 20’s and 30’s, not young boys, who all killed themselves in the name of religion). Does this legitimize Muhammad and his religion?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Atheist say. the proof is on you, prove it. That is just a cop out. God is not a being that a normal person can prove excist. hence the word Faith. A Christian will say. ’ i believe in God. with all my heart. even to the point that i will die for him." Now that Christian can’t go and actually touch God. But he has faith to such an extent that he doesn’t need to. Now atheist in their warped little blogged washed mind. Think they have gotten the better of a chirstian when he says well the burden is on you, prove it.And the Christian says that he can’t actually prove his excistence…But he still goes on believing, and the idiot err i mean athiest gets all worked up over that. It seems to me that athiest cannot understand the meaning of faith. It’s like its beyond their feeble understanding. I say to athiest. I believe in God because i have faith. Now if you want to try and make me believe that he doesn’t excist you want to come up with something a little better than a stupid old argument that makes no sence. Or state that you don’t beleive in God because you “just don’t”.

 

[happilycatholic]

Josie, Deadheart is someones screen name btw (so no I wasn’t being insulting towards anyone). If you read my posts carefully I’m not in the business of personalizing or ad hom attacks. I solely critique theism.

Seriously, you can admit a typo, it’s not an admission of lesser IQ, just clumsy fingers.

 

[happilycatholic]

let’s all give one another a big internet hug

No, I will get atheist cooties! (just kidding)

 

[jam070406]

What I see in all these posts is blind hostility towards a group of people who simply believe in rational knowledge rather than ancient myths. There’s no good rebuttal for the objections of atheists (at least good ones); and there’s many more good objections to theism (the two I listed above are just the tip of the ice berg).

In my experience the religious man will always wind up attacking the atheist; because they will inevitably become frustrated at their inability to prove that myth is reality. Again, my problem with religion isn’t that there are millions who get sucked into it (for whatever reason). It’s that in this country we’ve been in the habit of basing our public policy on this mythology, which from an empirical and logical standpoint is clearly not true.

Actually it’s more frustration. You continue to insult people’s Faith by calling it a myth and quips like, “getting sucked in” etc… That is very disrespectful and rude. I figured that perhaps you superior intellect would tell you this but apparantly you are not so smart in those areas as you thought.
Frankly, you arguments mean nothing. We don’t listen because…well, we don’t care. You can’t offer anything better. If you like stroking your ego then by all means carry on. But in reality you are not important…at all. You’re objections offer nothing and don’t benefit a single person.
I’m sorry you don’t have Faith or can’t wrap your head around it, I truly am. And perhaps that is why you feel the need to attack others Faith. Who knows.

Do you know what happens when you die? No. Christianity offers Hope. I’ll take that over what you have to offer which is…nothing.
So while you can claim to have all the answers and prove that Christianity is wrong… blah blah blah, at the end of the day it means nothing to anybody. You (and your intellect) are not the savior of humanity. Sorry.

 

[happilycatholic]

What I see in all these posts is blind hostility towards a group of people who simply believe in rational knowledge rather than ancient myths. There’s no good rebuttal for the objections of atheists (at least good ones); and there’s many more good objections to theism (the two I listed above are just the tip of the ice berg).

In my experience the religious man will always wind up attacking the atheist; because they will inevitably become frustrated at their inability to prove that myth is reality. Again, my problem with religion isn’t that there are millions who get sucked into it (for whatever reason). It’s that in this country we’ve been in the habit of basing our public policy on this mythology, which from an empirical and logical standpoint is clearly not true.

Can we try this again?

You’ve stated the following:

Christians are dellusional.
Christians believe in fantasies.
Christians believe in myths.
Christians are unintelligent.

How in the world do you expect us to seriously discuss any issue with you when you can’t see past your personal opinions? Of course you can’t have a rational discussion with Christians. You believe you are debating deaf, blind and dumb idiots who see things in the dark and attribute them to real people who never existed.

If you don’t think your responses are personally insulting I’ll post a few here and let you explain.

 

[josie_L]

The problem is these martyrs weren’t being slaughtered during the lifetime of Christ. The first persecutions of Christians occurred under Nero in around 64 or 65 AD (after the great fire of Rome), several decades after the crucifixion. Beginning in around the second century Christian writers began averring that Nero killed Peter and Paul (and it ultimately stuck).

People kill themselves for Islam today, and not just young children (indeed the 9/11 terrorists were all men in their late 20’s and 30’s, not young boys, who all killed themselves in the name of religion). Does this legitimize Muhammad and his religion?

Exactly, they killed themselves, so how is this comparable to Christian martyrs who were killed at the hand of another for their (non-aggressive) beliefs.

 

[PennitentMan]

This thread moves WAY too fast for a working Joe like me! I’ll follow along and give (name removed by moderator)ut where I can.

 

[Eleve]

Exactly, they killed themselves, so how is this comparable to Christian martyrs who were killed at the hand of another for their (non-aggressive) beliefs.

It doesn’t matter who does the killing; their beliefs are shown to be genuine by the fact that they are willing to die for them.

 

[jam070406]

It doesn’t matter who does the killing; their beliefs are shown to be genuine by the fact that they are willing to die for them.

Yes it does matter. They are attempting to kill others.

 

[happilycatholic]

This thread moves WAY too fast for a working Joe like me! I’ll follow along and give (name removed by moderator)ut where I can.

Hey, don’t atheists have crystal balls?

Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

 

[josie_L]

It doesn’t matter who does the killing; their beliefs are shown to be genuine by the fact that they are willing to die for them.

And furthermore, Christians do/did not deliberately seek martyrdom.

 

[Eleve]

Yes it does matter. They are attempting to kill others.

And furthermore, Christians do/did not deliberately seek martyrdom.

It doesn’t matter in the context of what was actually being discussed in that quote, which is that martyrdom provides good evidence that the martyr truly believes what he/she claims to believe.

P.S. Look up the circumcellions, Josie. With as many Christians as there are/have been in the world, there will always be some going off the deep end.

 

[SHW]

The problem is these martyrs weren’t being slaughtered during the lifetime of Christ. The first persecutions of Christians occurred under Nero in around 64 or 65 AD (after the great fire of Rome), several decades after the crucifixion. Beginning in around the second century Christian writers began averring that Nero killed Peter and Paul (and it ultimately stuck).

All of the 11 original apostles (those remaining after Judas’ suicide) were killed as martyrs except for John the Evangelist. Legend: boiling oil did not kill John like his enemies hoped it would. catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=67

These stories about their martrydoms were passed down through the oral traditions of the Church. Secular history documentation is not that important for Catholics since if you believe the Church’s teachings, then you believe what she says about her oral traditions and those that are not perfectly clear are not important as far as the faith is concerned. Peter and the other Apostles replaced Judas with a person who was also a witness to Christ’s ministry (from His baptism by John to His ascension into heaven). This was the criteria for apostleship. [Acts 1:21-23]

These early Christians lived from day to day. It was not on their minds to write everything down. They were too busy trying to evangelize as Jesus commanded [Matthew 28:18-20] and also trying to stay alive during the Jewish persecution and then the Roman persecution. Stephen’s martyrdom is the first example of Christian martyrdom in Scripture and it was done with the Jew Saul/Paul’s approval not too long after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Stephen’s martyrdom:

Acts 7:54-60 “When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Saul/Paul’s story: Acts 8:1-3 "Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Acts 9:1-9 “Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.”

Persons do not have to actually experience this type of dramatic Godly intervention personally for themselves in order to believe, and no one deserves this extra attention/mercy [Romans 9:15-16]. They are expected to learn from others’ experiences so that they do not have to endure the experiences themselves.

I am of this group! I do not need to be blinded and thrown to the ground in order to be made to listen to God. However, God has given me my own thorn in the flesh which helps to keep my mind on eternity. 2 Corinthians 12:7] Though I doubt that my thorn in the flesh is the result of any danger to myself of anyone exalting me! The danger would be my own pride.

Since Jesus did not start His Church until right before He ascended into heaven, there really was no opportunity for them to become martyrs until after He left the earth. John the Baptist was martyred (beheaded) during Christ’s lifetime when He stood up for Christ’s teachings on divorce.

God’s sense of humor:

Paul was persecuting persons of the “Way.” [Acts 9:2] Paul was commanded to go to the street named “Straight” [Acts 9:11] in order for Him to be healed by the power of God through Ananias and also for him to get on the “Straight Way” so that he could eventually enter eternal life!

to be continued…

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Well that would do the sheeple’s (athiest) no good. because i happen to know that both russells tea pot and pink unicorns excist. And as far as the flying spaghetti monster. if i saw reports of people witnessing such a thing to the extent that were they would choose death rather than renounce what they had seen. i would have admitt that they must have seen a flying spaghetti monster. So im sorry but the FSM = fail.

Atheists are sheeple? That’s funny. Theists are one’s blindly clinging to 2000 year old myths despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. All because some invisible magician who created everything says they must have faith.

Faith - A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers.

Supernatural - Not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material.

Sorry buddy but you are the one that believes in a flying spaghetti monster.

 

[happilycatholic]

It doesn’t matter in the context of what was actually being discussed in that quote, which is that martyrdom provides good evidence that the martyr truly believes what he/she claims to believe.

P.S. Look up the circumcellions, Josie. With as many Christians as there are/have been in the world, there will always be some going off the deep end.

I think the important thing from the Christian POV is that martyrdom should not include the deliberate deaths of others to accomplish it. That would mean you are a killer, not a martyr. Right?

 

[SHW]

Continued:

People kill themselves for Islam today, and not just young children (indeed the 9/11 terrorists were all men in their late 20’s and 30’s, not young boys, who all killed themselves in the name of religion). Does this legitimize Muhammad and his religion?

People jump off the tops of buildings believing that they can fly. This is stupidity whether alcohol induced or not.

Knowing that Muslims are coerced into taking their own lives while they are taking the innocent lives of others in the name of religion shows that mind control exists and that it is extremely dangerous. Suicide and Murder are not things that I desire to promote or be a part of, either willingly or unwillingly, depending on whether I am the one committing suicide and murder or if I am the one chosen to be murdered.

How many Christians do you know take their own lives in order to prove that they are Christians? I know of none. Yet, I do know of some who gave their lives in order to save other persons’ lives like Fr. Maximilian Kolbe. auschwitz.dk/Kolbe.htm

John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.”

Why not believe in Muhammad?

Character references, please! Why should I believe in a man who alone claimed that he is a prophet because he claimed that he received visitation from an angel? What is his character like? Is he trustworthy? Did anyone else witness him receiving the writings for the “Koran” from the “angel Gabriel?” thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm

Why believe in Christ?

Character references, please! Many men and women who personally knew Jesus, vouch for everything that He said about Himself and also everything said about Him, and they passed down His story orally and they also wrote manuscripts about Him which were formed into a book which is called The Bible or The Book.

Our choice: Do we believe this Church hierarchy which claims that their Church was started by Jesus, the Son of God or not?

Atheists have their own holiday in the USA. It is April 1st. [Psalm 14:1] Could not resist.

 

[authenticity]

I assume you’re referring to reliance. In other words since I don’t rely on what I view to be a fictitious god; then I can only have myself to rely on. This is IMO an oversimplification (and frankly it amounts to rhetoric; since atheists and agnostics rely on others, such as friends, family members, co-workers, etc. just as much as Christians do).

If you want to turn the discussion to “hope” – and say something like all an atheist can have hope in is themselves – that’s still a fallacious and rhetorical statement; because at least as far as I’m concerned I place my hope in mankind at large & not solely myself.

When I watch a NOVA show and learn MIT scientists are trying to build a time machine in the hope they can simulate a wormhole and move particles back in time (and eventually perhaps larger objects), when I read about nanotechnology research and the possibility that we will one day learn how to control the differentiation process (and perhaps reverse it & maybe even prevent the degradation of our telomerase), when I hear about scientists at the Bern super collider trying to capture dark matter, when I hear about the advances in quantum computing & that one day in the near future we might posses the computing power to understand our atmosphere, our biology, etc. these are things that give me hope.

What I find interesting is that the Church at one time put a man up for heresy because he said the universe did not revolve around human beings. And now it’s the other way around. It’s the atheist who wants to put human beings back at the center because for all his speculation, he can not conceive of a greater intelligence than himself. That is where your hope is at, is it not? Human intelligence? Good luck.

I find science interesting as well. I personally don’t see any conflict between science and religion. What I do find problematic is that with each new discovery, there is a greater threat of us committing mass suicide.

I’ll take a guess that you have a similar concern. Your answer is to dispel all forms of religion from the earth, but I think that is exactly what creates the fundamentalist, the jihadist. You miss the practical application of Christianity. And, no, it isn’t burning people at the stake.

When I flip on EWTN or Trinity Broadcasting Network and see a priest talking about ancient heresies, or a pastor discussing end of the world prophecy … what I see is the exact opposite of hope. I see fear mongering, the inspiration of bigotry, narrow mindedness, paranoia, etc.

Because televangelists are great examples of Christianity in action. Get real. It doesn’t occur to you that the revolutionary message of Christ might require established powers to spread propaganda and confuse people?

How about standing up to the injustice and poverty you see around you? How about feeding people, clothing them, healing them, housing them, educating them?

you said humanity learns more through revelation or something to that effect – practically speaking, the same darn thing.

“When a person hits you, turn the other cheek and offer them that one.”

Logic would tell you to do the opposite. It is only through faith that you can really commit to such a moral code. And it is only based upon that faith that the truth of that moral code can be revealed. Whether people abide by it or recognize it for what it is doesn’t change the nature of its truth.

the only reason your assertions will win out is because we’re on CAF & I’m the outcast here. If we were on an atheist web site I can assure you – you’re assertions would not “win out”

I’ve had this same argument many times in other forums where Christianity is far from the main belief system. It hasn’t been that different here.

gee … that was a well thought out & reasoned response. When I point to real inconsistencies with your religion you avert your eyes & write it off as rhetoric … brilliant!

Your conclusion was based on your own historical analysis. Just because you build a straw man that can’t stand doesn’t mean I have to prove to you that it is standing. It isn’t. Your understanding of Christianity sucks.

No it’s not a clear indicator that morality does not evolve. Indeed such events in history pushes the evolution of morality. Many centuries ago your Catholic Church forced Jews into ghettos and compelled them to wear identification badges on their sleeves – just as the Nazi’s did. Where was your timeless truth then?

So the eternal moral law is love. People sin against the law. No shock that the Church would, it was started by a man who very famously sinned against the law. But he was also a famous example of forgiveness and penance. To not forgive is to perpetuate the sin against love. This is what Christ’s sacrifice is all about.

America can take far more credit for the evolution of morality than Christianity. You can write this off as rhetoric if it helps you justify your faith perspective … but my words are no less true just because you disagree with them or refuse to open your mind.

I don’t even know where to start with that one. I’m not writing it off as rhetoric, I’m just amazed you would make such a claim. What I see is a country that became a materialist empire in spite of it’s moral republican roots. Perhaps you see something else.

 

[Eleve]

I think the important thing from the Christian POV is that martyrdom should not include the deliberate deaths of others to accomplish it. That would mean you are a killer, not a martyr. Right?

Right. But in this particular discussion, legitimacy as a martyr was never relevant. The important point, here, in this specific discussion, is that Muslims and Christians alike have acted in ways that show the sincerity of their beliefs.

 

[authenticity]

I like you!

Thanks, Josie.