Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

That formulation of the question whether there is a god, makes no sense. And if Christian theists can’t distinguish their god from from a fairy, they are in trouble. Do they really think God is no different from the God depicted in “The Simpsons” ?​

Some of the greatest minds of the CC (Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas) did a pretty good job of distinguishing their God from a fairy.

Because miracles prove nothing. Any fool - well, most fools - can pull off a miracle; all that’s needed is a sufficiently gullible audience. **Besides, Jesus was not credible: he prophesied falsely - but because belief in him was not based on reason, it survived. **​

Are you for real? I have listened to you babble for months on end now and it’s gotten to the point where I don’t you think you need to feel gutted any longer, you’ve obviously made your choice. So stop your ranting! (see I too can put angry faces)

That there is only one god is not self-evident. If there are many, that might explain why the Christian deity is so hopelessly ineffectual.

Then where is the evidence ? There is none. Your God is nothing. No, this wonderful God you claim to believe in has done nothing, will done nothing, can do nothing. A living human being is more alive, is better, is more worth bothering with, than the do-nothing, see-nothing, know-nothing, care-nothing deity of Christians. IOW, that God is just like a graven image.​

And who are you to decide that God is ineffectual, my experiences prove otherwise, as well as the experiences of many others. And you dare to respond in such a vitriolic manner to a person who believes in God because now apparently you do not.

Christians can babble to their idol of words all they like - much good it will do, or has done ! The desperate lengths to which believers in the Christian god resort remind me of nothing so much as the Superman story in which S-man comes into existence as a result of being believed in. Believing despite reality is all Christians have - but God is still a non-entity. Christians can’t even agree on what their “loving Saviour” is supposed to have meant - & as for the behaviour of Christians these last 1970 years: the less said, the better.

Has I said earlier save your rants for someone else, this is all subjective at this point. .

 

[swplan76]

Yes, Lewis is an amazing author, and The Great Divorce was an interesting read, as were the Screwtape Letters. I am curious to see where you go with this question.

I know a number of atheists who read it recently. They wrote essays on it, not dealing with atheism, but dealing with the issues of the text. It deals with delusion. There are things we convince ourselves of that may make it impossible to see clearly later on if there is a type of confrontation between us and the divine. Because we were so committed to not believing on earth, if given a chance to reconsider later on, would we? The text suggest that the vast majority of us won’t. In life we become set in our ways and refuse to be imaginative (the painter).

I can understand religious people who are legalistic/loyalists to their religions, or the figures of their religions because in religion people commit to a god and they commit to a community (often times). So, rethinking what they believe can be difficult because it means turning away from this god and potentially a community they have been investing in.

Atheists don’t owe anything to a god. They don’t owe anything to a community (in most cases). Religious communities would be upset if a person converted or left because they feel that the person is walking away from the divine. An Atheist community would not be shattered in the same way (Atheist communities would just be committed to a bunch of ideas and theories). Some Atheists seem to become very religious… and by religious I mean like the religious people that none of us like - the legalists/loyalists. But nothing is demanding anything of Atheists - so why not be flexible, become imaginative again and hope and explore the possibilities… unless there is **nothing **to explore. …**Nothing **to imagine.

The thing that keeps most people out of Heaven in ‘The Great Divorce’ is their refusal to accept that they might have been mistaken - they can’t accept new ideas. Its like their creativity has calcified.

Personally, I’m at a point where I have experienced enough to know that God is real - I have personal proof. I have done the work of exploring various perspectives/religions and I know some things to be fact. My perspective is still developing - God is stretching me, growing me, leading me into new life all the time. I am investing in eternal things. Not in the sense that I am owning eternal properties, but I am beginning to understand eternal realities and I am becoming more and more the person God intended me to be. I’m putting myself out there.

Atheists aren’t putting themselves out there. They are refusing any divine connection. Which to me sees very reductionist and closed minded. If the divine is out there, then you spent all your life arguing that it isn’t, refusing to see and you would be wrong.

If the divine is out there and you spent your whole life seeking it and you were wrong, what did you lose? You were in pursuit of the deepest of truths and you came back empty handed - at least you tried… and you gain knowledge that you can report. It seems to me that Atheists jump the gun and settle with simple answers…
Basic Question of truth:
“What if there is more?”
Simple answer:
“NO”

It seems very empty, unimaginative, hopeless, pointless, bland…

If the divine is out there and you spent your whole life seeking and you were right, then you gain everything - you’ve tapped into the divine reality, the purpose of the universe. What’s better than that?

 

[happilycatholic]

What does that mean ? That there is a history of thinking about Divine attributes ? So there is - but what of it ? Your meaning is not clear​

Sorry, but this is baffling - it needs clarifying​

That formulation of the question whether there is a god, makes no sense. And if Christian theists can’t distinguish their god from from a fairy, they are in trouble. Do they really think God is no different from the God depicted in “The Simpsons” ?​

Because miracles prove nothing. Any fool - well, most fools - can pull off a miracle; all that’s needed is a sufficiently gullible audience. Besides, Jesus was not credible: he prophesied falsely - but because belief in him was not based on reason, it survived.​

Because the two are not comparable - why is that not self-evident ? ​

You really haven’t thought this through, have you ? Death is morally irrelevant. Nothing else is certain but death, so we might as well not fear it.​

Other & longer-lived religions have gone; there is no reason Christianity can’t die out; we ***are ***still waiting for Jesus to “come quickly” - but, “like father, like son”: they both make promises; and both fail miserably when it comes to keeping them. That’s almost funny It’s pure provincialism to think that the religion one adheres to is going to last for ever. It’s a ridiculous idea with no foundation - your crucified Jew wasn’t unique. God is no more alive than its thought to be. That’s why people don’t fear the gods superseded by the Christian deity; not many Christians live in awe of Ganesh. JHWH would not exist if there were no Jews & Samaritans to keep him alive. And the same applies to the Christian God.​

That there is only one god is not self-evident. If there are many, that might explain why the Christian deity is so hopelessly ineffectual.

Then where is the evidence ? There is none. Your God is nothing. No, this wonderful God you claim to believe in has done nothing, will done nothing, can do nothing. A living human being is more alive, is better, is more worth bothering with, than the do-nothing, see-nothing, know-nothing, care-nothing deity of Christians. IOW, that God is just like a graven image.​

Christians can babble to their idol of words all they like - much good it will do, or has done ! The desperate lengths to which believers in the Christian god resort remind me of nothing so much as the Superman story in which S-man comes into existence as a result of being believed in. Believing despite reality is all Christians have - but God is still a non-entity. Christians can’t even agree on what their “loving Saviour” is supposed to have meant - & as for the behaviour of Christians these last 1970 years: the less said, the better.

Awesome. Another angry catholic. …next…

 

[happilycatholic]

If someone claims something is real and cannot prove it , then how is someone questioning it worse?

You have no evidence of God existing, nor do we have evidence of him not existing. We also have no evidence that Santa Claus is not real. We have no evidence that the Easter Bunny is not real. We have no evidence that Cupid is not real. We have no evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not real. Should we go start a church for every single fictional character that we cannot prove is real nor not real? Lets just say there would be a lot of churches.

If YOU make the claim, you need to back it up. We don’t need evidence of it not existing if you have no evidence of it existing.

First of all, here’s where YOU go wrong. We don’t have to prove anything to YOU. YOU are on your own. No one here went on an atheist website and invited YOU to come here to challenge the existance of God.

You crashed the party dearheart. YOU came here. YOU made the challenge. It is up to the person who makes the challenge to prove his/her side.

When you do that, you let us know. K?

 

[happilycatholic]

Oh my goodness, will somebody please bring on the atheists that are not atheist because they are mad at a God they don’t believe in?

I am SICK to DEATH of angry Christians spewing their anger all over the place. And if you catholics think you are not catholic anymore, you’re sadly mistaken. You are simply the WORST kind of catholic. You are rebellious and angry and you will pay for your so-called informed opinions.

I will pray for each and every one of you but you have to open your minds and I suggest a little therapy for your unresolved issues. Maybe the answer is not Christianity for you, I don’t know. But the answer is certainly NOT coming here and insulting every Christian who makes an attempt to explain faith to you.

Just because you are lost doesn’t mean we are. We are happy in this ignorant bliss we call FAITH.

God Bless and Keep you in His loving arms no matter how much you squirm!

 

[Eleve]

You are rebellious and angry and you will pay for your so-called informed opinions.

God Bless and Keep you in His loving arms no matter how much you squirm!

:ehh:

 

[happilycatholic]

:ehh:

Even if all you believe in is Karma, that’s still true.

Negative begets negative.

 

[Eleve]

Actually, the Christian message of mercy, expressed in the second quote I made, contradicts this idea of karma. It also contradicts the sentiment in your first quote. Why else do you think I would posit one quote of yours in response to another?

 

[happilycatholic]

Actually, the Christian message of mercy, expressed in the second quote I made, contradicts this idea of karma. It also contradicts the sentiment in your first quote. Why else do you think I would posit one quote of yours in response to another?

Good luck Eleve. Hope the stars are in alignment for you or whatever you believe in. I hope you always find peace.

HC

 

[Eleve]

No, I don’t believe in stars or karma or anything of that sort. I like the Christian idea of a merciful God; what I’m trying to come to grips with is the conflict between that message and other Christian teachings where God at least doesn’t seem so merciful.

 

[learningtheway]

They have no evidence from which to base their case.

They’re convinced science and spirituality can’t go hand in hand. They don’t think the big bang had an intelligence behind it. That’s their “evidence”.

 

[PennitentMan]

Oh my goodness, will somebody please bring on the atheists that are not atheist because they are mad at a God they don’t believe in?

I am SICK to DEATH of angry Christians spewing their anger all over the place. And if you catholics think you are not catholic anymore, you’re sadly mistaken. You are simply the WORST kind of catholic. You are rebellious and angry and you will pay for your so-called informed opinions.

I will pray for each and every one of you but you have to open your minds and I suggest a little therapy for your unresolved issues. Maybe the answer is not Christianity for you, I don’t know. But the answer is certainly NOT coming here and insulting every Christian who makes an attempt to explain faith to you.

Just because you are lost doesn’t mean we are. We are happy in this ignorant bliss we call FAITH.

God Bless and Keep you in His loving arms no matter how much you squirm!

Wow….rant much? I think someone has some unresolved anger issues

I used to wish god was real so I can kick him in the nuts, but I realized that he’s not there, so I moved on…do I qualify?

Oh, and as for your catholic comment: Sure, you still view me as catholic, I get where you are coming from, I just don’t care.

Sorry, for my tone, I kinda adopted yours there. 

But seriously, I don’t think that every atheist here insults all Christians when they are trying to explain things to us. It is a guess though, because I haven’t read this thread.
We don’t insult the person, we refute the claims. I think it just may appear to some like it’s personal insults because they take their faith very seriously.

 

[Eleve]

We don’t insult the person, we refute the claims. I think it just may appear to some like it’s personal insults because they take their faith very seriously.

There’s a difference between refuting claims and heaping abuse on people’s beliefs. The latter has gotten out of hand in this thread and in others.

 

[PennitentMan]

There’s a difference between refuting claims and heaping abuse on people’s beliefs. The latter has gotten out of hand in this thread and in others.

Ah, gotcha. I haven’t kept up with the thread.
It’s the unfortunate truth though that the religion is not for everyone and the people do get hurt following it. I can kinda understand wanting to do what they “accused” did.
Of course some will take it personally when ex-catholics speak about the injustice that was caused by the same institution that they hold sacred.
Maybe it did get out of hand on this thread, but if there is one place where that sort of thing happens, it’s on forums such as these.
To be fair, you should see on the atheists forums….we get at least 2-3 “christian trolls” a week in there telling us that we will burn in hell and that we are no good, dirty, rotten, evil, baby eaters.
Everyone deals with this in some form or another.

Christians might see it as an opportunity to practice some of Jesus’ virtues, maybe?

But again, I haven’t read the thread, so I’m not sure what kinds of insults were flung at whom.

 

[happilycatholic]

Wow….rant much? I think someone

has some unresolved anger issues

I know, I’ll admit it. It’s not anger though, just frustration that we are really not accomplishing anything here. I would like to think that atheists have some real basis for their position on religion other that to say that those who believe are dellusional idiots. Actually, I have a friend who is athiest (former Lutheran) and since meeting him I’ve become very interested in how atheists form their opinions. But I never can seem to get past their opinions on believers to get to their opinions on their own (un)belief.

I used to wish god was real so I can kick him in the nuts, but I realized that he’s not there, so I moved on…do I qualify?

And I don’t either. I have actually been in a very good PM conversation with an atheist who has posted here quite a bit. And there have been some very informing posts by a few atheists here including the one or two that are slinging mud, but how about we just stick to the information without the insults?

I think it just may appear to some like it’s personal insults because they take their faith very seriously

I don’t think the insults can be seen as not personal. I also would hope in the future that atheists who are of the opinion that those who have faith are some how less intelligent or dellusional, could just keep that to themselves.

Maybe if we follow some guidelines, folks like me won’t have to state the obvious (however disproportionately emotional some people might see it)

 

[happilycatholic]

No, I don’t believe in stars or karma or anything of that sort. I like the Christian idea of a merciful God; what I’m trying to come to grips with is the conflict between that message and other Christian teachings where God at least doesn’t seem so merciful.

I know, even Christians struggle with this. I used to every day. I told my story as to why in this thread (I think it’s on this threadd), but it’s my story and not an explanation that’s acceptable to everyone. I think to be merciful to everyone all at the same time must be a challenge!

I do hope you find peace.

 

[PennitentMan]

I know, I’ll admit it. It’s not anger though, just frustration that we are really not accomplishing anything here. I would like to think that atheists have some real basis for their position on religion other than to say that those who believe are delusional idiots.

It’s true that there is baggage with some atheists. I think there are three kinds of atheists: the kind that always had been Atheist, the ones that used to be Christian and de-converted from an intellectual point of view, and the ones that used to be Christian that de-converted arriving at an intellectual de-conversion, but had a nudge with some wrong against them by the church.
The third kind is usually the most jaded with the church, but they are also the ones that usually post on forums like these. So, I can understand that there is a lot of barriers that you have to navigate before you could arrive at an intellectual conversation. It’s a pity though, because I think that would be good to have a purely intellectual discussion…but it happens so seldom because both sides feel so strongly…

Qualify for wut? The shallow post of the month award. Yes, yes you do.

Touché! Love the sense of humor, +1

Fair enough. But my “tone”??? And you don’t pick up on any other tones here? That’s fascinating. How about the tone of if you believe in God, you must be an idiot who sees things when he’s alone. Do you note that tone? Or is that just me?

Oh, I noted the tone alright Dude, you are funny! I see where you are coming from though.

But seriously, I don’t think that every atheist here insults all Christians when they are trying to explain things to us. It is a guess though, because I haven’t read this thread.
We don’t insult the person, we refute the claims. .

And I don’t either. I have actually been in a very good PM conversation with an atheist who has posted here quite a bit. And there have been some very informing posts by a few atheists here including the one or two that are slinging mud, but how about we just stick to the information without the insults?

I would like that too. I hope my “colleagues” could agree to this too.

I think it just may appear to some like it’s personal insults because they take their faith very seriously I don’t think the insults can be seen as not personal. I also would hope in the future that atheists who are of the opinion that those who have faith are somehow less intelligent or delusional, could just keep that to themselves.

Maybe if we follow some guidelines, folks like me won’t have to state the obvious (however disproportionately emotional some people might see it)

That would be the ideal, but in practice there will always be the mud slingers…Some folks might even be part-time mud slingers, being totally fine one day, but then be all like up in yo’ face cynical the next. I’ve been there too, I’m not perfect…yes, I know, I know, but it’s true, I’m not…

Peace.

 

[josie_L]

Ah, gotcha. I haven’t kept up with the thread.
It’s the unfortunate truth though that the religion is not for everyone and the people do get hurt following it. I can kinda understand wanting to do what they “accused” did.
Of course some will take it personally when ex-catholics speak about the injustice that was caused by the same institution that they hold sacred.
Maybe it did get out of hand on this thread, but if there is one place where that sort of thing happens, it’s on forums such as these.
To be fair, you should see on the atheists forums….we get at least 2-3 “christian trolls” a week in there telling us that we will burn in hell and that we are no good, dirty, rotten, evil, baby eaters.
Everyone deals with this in some form or another.

Christians might see it as an opportunity to practice some of Jesus’ virtues, maybe?

But again, I haven’t read the thread, so I’m not sure what kinds of insults were flung at whom.

Wow, I think you assume much by stating automatically that the ex-Catholic is the injured party. I guess it’s that old maxim “the ex-catholic is always right”.

 

[PennitentMan]

Wow, I think you assume much by stating automatically that the ex-Catholic is the injured party. I guess it’s that old maxim “the ex-catholic is always right”.

I don’t even understand what you are trying to say enough to comment.

Are you trying to say that the hurt that the people felt was imagined? It might be misinterpreted hurt from your point of view, but it doesn’t make their hurt any less real.

As happycatholic and I were saying, let’s keep this clean and insult free and have an intellectual discussion.

Thanks.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t even understand what you are trying to say enough to comment.

Are you trying to say that the hurt that the people felt was imagined? It might be misinterpreted hurt from your point of view, but it doesn’t make their hurt any less real.

As happycatholic and I were saying, let’s keep this clean and insult free and have an intellectual discussion.

Thanks.

I’ve made myself clear enough. I said do not “assume”.