Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

Are you honestly suggesting that impurity (which, per Deuteronomy 22:23:24, includes the sin of being raped) warrants punishment by stoning? Can violating God’s laws (especially purity laws that have nothing to do with harming another person) justify torturing a human being to death?

This sort of moral equivocation just makes me want to hold up a big mirror on the face of Christians who say that atheists have no foundation for morals.

No, rape was not punished by stoning. And how was it not harming anyone, what if impurity were allowed, and there was rampant pregnancies, diseases and what not? Do you not see what promiscuity has done in our times? Look at the amount of abortions in the U.S. alone. Furthermore, this was not a common thing to practice stoning. I think they pretty much toed the line.

P.S. We don’t follow mosaic law. So no worries.

 

[jam070406]

I actually came here discerning Catholicism, although at this point it’s clear enough that it’s not for me.

Why don’t you set aside debating for awhile and start by reading the gospels? This may help you. Don’t give up. And don’t let other atheists stear you away. If you are truly discerning then the Holy Spirit is leading you.

 

[josie_L]

What really particularly bothers me about this is that most of my social sphere has no trouble worshiping someone who would condemn people to hellfire for eternity.

Then you’re doing a damned (pun not intended) poor job of it. Both of your posts in this thread have tried to communicate with atheists using premises that we do not share. If all you can offer is threats of hellfire that we don’t believe to exist, then you aren’t earning any more credence than the guy at the next tent trying to sell me Islam.

I actually came here discerning Catholicism, although at this point it’s clear enough that it’s not for me. At this point I’m bogged down refuting the notion that atheists are amoral monsters.

Eleve, if you are discerning Catholicism then don’t let the actions of others decide your fate. You need to discern with prayer and reading the appropriate material to gain insight. Here at Catholic forums you have too many people with varying opinions some very good and others not so good. Please take time for yourself to read the early church fathers, the encyclicals of the Church and other Catholic resources which will benefit you richly. I also remember a blog I believe it was entitled An Atheist’s Diary (her conversion to Catholicism) it was/is very informative. Please go visit it.

 

[josie_L]

I know … but I’m not very sensitive. Allow me some nostalgia from yesteryear … how about the good ol’ days when people had thick skin?

Well, at least you’re aware of it. That’s one step closer to curing it.

 

[josie_L]

Hey, why the concern? Hellfire is irrelevant to you. This is why I stated: “since you do not believe that Scripture is God’s Word, then this should not cause you to lose any sleep mulling this over.”

If you think that the thought of atheists suffering in flames for eternity makes me happy, then you have no clue about Christians at all. None of us Christians are posting here to you and “your likeminded friends” in the hope that you will be damned. We post here in the hope that you will change your thinking so that you can be saved. Big difference.

Why are you questioning our motives? Don’t you think that we can care about the eternal destiny of all persons that we meet online whether we like them personally or not, or whether they agree with our theology or not? Do you think that being an atheist gives you a special insight as to the motives of non-atheists so that you can judge their intentions unerringly? Pleeaasse! Why do we quote Scripture to atheists? We do it because we do care about where they will spend eternity. It is not an ego trip for us at all. We do not even know who you are.

Jude 1:23 “but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”

My point is this: Why even debate this? Your mind is made up. As long as you are happy with your choice, what is the point? I doubt very much that very many persons on a Catholic Forum will want to join you and convert to your “Atheist” beliefs so why bother? Are you trying to hone your argument against the existence of God? By all means, try, but don’t tell us on our forum what rules we have to play by so as to not offend you with our Scriptures which we actually do believe to be true.

Hope3, what part of uncertain (that’s what Eleve as posted under religion) did you not understand?

 

[josie_L]

This still doesn’t mean that observing humans is a good way to derive morals. Humans do a lot of nasty things to each other; some probably even amount to survival mechanisms. But, even if we were perfect, the very definition of a moral absolute is that it is not dependent on whether people adhere to it or not.

I explained this already. And I am in agreement.

 

[Hope3]

What really particularly bothers me about this is that most of my social sphere has no trouble worshiping someone who would condemn people to hellfire for eternity.

Their own actions condemn them. Evil is the absence of Good. God is Good. So, if you do not have the goodness of God, then you have evil by default. Darkness is the absence of Light. God is Light. Now, with the following, please feel free to disregard it if you wish:

This is truth: God created us. We had no say in His decision to create us. However, we are saved for eternity if we cooperate with His grace and we are condemned for eternity if we do not cooperate with His grace. He does not give us the choice to opt out of these two choices. And He can do this because He is God.

Then you’re doing a damned (pun not intended) poor job of it. Both of your posts in this thread have tried to communicate with atheists using premises that we do not share. If all you can offer is threats of hellfire that we don’t believe to exist, then you aren’t earning any more credence than the guy at the next tent trying to sell me Islam.

You are on the wrong forum if you think that we will both share the “same premises” in our discussions.

We do believe in hellfire. Can’t get around it. You have the same choice to make that we all do. Either you believe in God or you don’t. Either you adore your creator or you don’t. I would not be doing you any favors by telling you that I think that you will not suffer hellfire when you die if you do not believe in and adore God. **I would be lying to you if I said that I think that if you desire to just cease your existence at the time of your death, then this is exactly what will happen to you. ** I’m not going to lie to you.

I actually came here discerning Catholicism, although at this point it’s clear enough that it’s not for me. At this point I’m bogged down refuting the notion that atheists are amoral monsters.

I never once claimed that atheists were amoral monsters. Never. I did say that Scripture reveals that those who do not know God and those who do not obey God will suffer hellfire for eternity. I cannot back down from this because I actually believe it to be true. Truth is unpopular. People die as martyrs because of their adherence to their truth.

Catholicism is not for sissies. We are headed into a time of terrible persecutions for those who believe in the Christian faith. We already have many bad Catholics who do not believe in the Church’s teachings yet they will not leave and start their own church. They want to change our Church instead of leaving our Church. This causes great scandal. We want new members who will truly want to fight the good fight for Jesus Christ.

And, if you continue to hang around here, get used to the idea that Scripture will be quoted. Catholics are Bible Christians. You know the saying, “If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the fire.” (pun intended)

I am not trying to offend you. You find the truth of Catholicism offensive. I cannot help that. My God is a loving God who desires me to spend eternity with Him in heaven. That is why He sent His only begotten Son to die a terrible death in order to make this possible. He does not expect anything more from me than He expected of His own Son. I do not find fault with His Salvation Plan.

 

[Hope3]

Hope3, what part of uncertain (that’s what Eleve as posted under religion) did you not understand?

Is reading that hellfire can be the result of our free will actions too harsh to stomach? Are we to spoonfeed adults?

If uncertain, then not a believer, correct?

If not a believer, hellfire is definitely a concern to be contemplating, don’t you think?

Doesn’t Eleve think that Catholics believe in Scripture? I am doing Eleve a favor by telling the truth about the unpleasant realities that can result from our own free will choices.

It is Eleve’s choice as to whether belief in the Scriptures will be chosen as (her?) Gospel Truth. But, make no mistake, the choice (she) makes has consequences that will be eternal. (Sorry, but I am not sure whether Eleve is female or male.)

 

[josie_L]

Is reading that hellfire can be the result of our free will actions too harsh to stomach? Are we to spoonfeed adults?

If uncertain, then not a believer, correct?

If not a believer, hellfire is definitely a concern to be contemplating, don’t you think?

Doesn’t Eleve think that Catholics believe in Scripture? I am doing Eleve a favor by telling the truth about the unpleasant realities that can result from our own free will choices.

It is Eleve’s choice as to whether belief in the Scriptures will be chosen as (her?) Gospel Truth. But, make no mistake, the choice (she) makes has consequences that will be eternal. (Sorry, but I am not sure whether Eleve is female or male.)

There are other means by which you could convey the truth. I don’t like your approach. God bless.

 

[authenticity]

The carrot (heaven) or the stick (hell) never did much for me in terms of convincing me that Christianity is the Way. In fact, most forms of evangelism turned me off to Christianity.

It wasn’t until I sat down and read the New Testament for myself that I became interested. I found a very different Jesus than the one that had been presented to me by preachers or the average Christian. Jesus’s teachings are radical even by today’s standards. They are about a universal spiritual nation that turns every man-made law upside down.

My daughter checked out a documentary on MLK recently. As we were watching, I reflected on how both the Blacks and Whites claimed to believe in the same religion. One group, however, took Matthew Chapters 5-7 to be a way of life. MLK got the idea for civil disobedience from Gandhi. Gandhi got the idea from Tolstoy’s ‘The Kingdom of God is Within You’ which is all about living the Sermon on the Mount.

I also believe that conversion occurs over a lifetime and is not a single event. Pope Benedict went deep into this idea with his reflections on the life of St. Augustine. Doubt is really the desire to know God. Throughout the Gospels, the people that witnessed Jesus’ life were constantly asking him, “Are you really the Messiah?”

By asking, Jesus comes closer, he displays more of his divinity. To someone from the outside looking in, it seems that a Christian is someone who believes totally without a flinch. The reality is that it is in the weakness of a person’s faith that real grace abounds. That realization brings about an authentic humility. You are grateful that you woke up this morning because you know that just being alive is a blessing. Everything else is a bonus.

The last thing I have to say is that when it comes to proof or knowing, a person has three options: experience, reason and faith. The problem with the first two is that they are exclusive. A person may not have the sensitivity or the opportunity to perceive what I perceive or vice versa. And not everyone is Einstein or Socrates. If finding God required intelligence, people would lose Him simply out of ignorance. Faith, however, is inclusive. If God is really the God of all people, then the way to Him must be open to all people regardless of who they are or what culture they grew up in or what time period they were born or any other limitation. This is what really places Christianity above all other religions or philosophies. Faith is a gift.

 

[Eleve]

Hope, you seem to think that I am so totally ignorant of Christianity that you are doing me a favor by telling me about beliefs like hellfire. I am not. I was brought up as a Christian. Indeed, I don’t think I’ve seen a single quotation from Scripture quoted at me on these forums that I wasn’t already familiar with.

You also seem to think that I am interested in hearing what you believe. I am not; I probably know most of those beliefs already. What I am interested in hearing is what you can get me to believe. If you really care about doing that, you’re going to have to get over this exercise in evangelical onanism and speak to me using terms and arguments whose premises I already accept. If you think that repeating your own premises long enough will get me to accept them, I invite you to consider how unlikely you would be to give up your own faith from having the Qur’an quoted to you, or from an explanation of how Krishna is truly an avatar of Vishnu.

Josie, is this the blog you are talking about?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Well, at least you’re aware of it. That’s one step closer to curing it.

honestly it’s not that I’m insensitive; it’s just that many people have simply become over-sensitive. A crude joke about MJ … for goodness sake, the man was a pedophile.

 

[josie_L]

Hope, you seem to think that I am so totally ignorant of Christianity that you are doing me a favor by telling me about beliefs like hellfire. I am not. I was brought up as a Christian. Indeed, I don’t think I’ve seen a single quotation from Scripture quoted at me on these forums that I wasn’t already familiar with.

You also seem to think that I am interested in hearing what you believe. I am not; I probably know most of those beliefs already. What I am interested in hearing is what you can get me to believe. If you really care about doing that, you’re going to have to get over this exercise in evangelical onanism and speak to me using terms and arguments whose premises I already accept. If you think that repeating your own premises long enough will get me to accept them, I invite you to consider how unlikely you would be to give up your own faith from having the Qur’an quoted to you, or from an explanation of how Krishna is truly an avatar of Vishnu.

Josie, is this the blog you are talking about?

Yes, this is the one. Sorry, I misled you though!

 

[josie_L]

honestly it’s not that I’m insensitive; it’s just that many people have simply become over-sensitive. A crude joke about MJ … for goodness sake, the man was a pedophile.

[SIGN]Francis, where’s your thick skin now?[/SIGN]

 

[josie_L]

The carrot (heaven) or the stick (hell) never did much for me in terms of convincing me that Christianity is the Way. In fact, most forms of evangelism turned me off to Christianity.

It wasn’t until I sat down and read the New Testament for myself that I became interested. I found a very different Jesus than the one that had been presented to me by preachers or the average Christian. Jesus’s teachings are radical even by today’s standards. They are about a universal spiritual nation that turns every man-made law upside down.

My daughter checked out a documentary on MLK recently. As we were watching, I reflected on how both the Blacks and Whites claimed to believe in the same religion. One group, however, took Matthew Chapters 5-7 to be a way of life. MLK got the idea for civil disobedience from Gandhi. Gandhi got the idea from Tolstoy’s ‘The Kingdom of God is Within You’ which is all about living the Sermon on the Mount.

I also believe that conversion occurs over a lifetime and is not a single event. Pope Benedict went deep into this idea with his reflections on the life of St. Augustine. Doubt is really the desire to know God. Throughout the Gospels, the people that witnessed Jesus’ life were constantly asking him, “Are you really the Messiah?”

By asking, Jesus comes closer, he displays more of his divinity. To someone from the outside looking in, it seems that a Christian is someone who believes totally without a flinch. The reality is that it is in the weakness of a person’s faith that real grace abounds. That realization brings about an authentic humility. You are grateful that you woke up this morning because you know that just being alive is a blessing. Everything else is a bonus.

The last thing I have to say is that when it comes to proof or knowing, a person has three options: experience, reason and faith. The problem with the first two is that they are exclusive. A person may not have the sensitivity or the opportunity to perceive what I perceive or vice versa. And not everyone is Einstein or Socrates. If finding God required intelligence, people would lose Him simply out of ignorance. Faith, however, is inclusive. If God is really the God of all people, then the way to Him must be open to all people regardless of who they are or what culture they grew up in or what time period they were born or any other limitation. This is what really places Christianity above all other religions or philosophies. Faith is a gift.

That was very well said. :clapping:

 

[josie_L]

honestly it’s not that I’m insensitive; it’s just that many people have simply become over-sensitive. A crude joke about MJ … for goodness sake, the man was a pedophile.

I don’t believe he was a pedophile.

 

[happilycatholic]

This still doesn’t mean that observing humans is a good way to derive morals. Humans do a lot

of nasty things to each other; some probably even amount to survival mechanisms. But, even if we were perfect, the very definition of a moral absolute is that it is not dependent on whether people adhere to it or not.

Eleve:

I’ve been reading through these posts and I’m getting a hint of ‘wanting’ in your posts, especially the one about your discernment of catholicism.

First, please, please DO NOT do any sort of discernment here about any kind of faith, religion or moral basis. This forum is merely opinion. Even in the apologetics I’ve found material differences in arguments on catholicism.

If you are serious, get out your Bible (a catholic one) and obtain the Catechism if you haven’t already and go page by page and discern whether you believe in your heart was the Catechism says is something you believe.

Although, I have to say that I doubt your sincerity about discerning catholicism since you profess to not even believe in God in the first place. That’s kind of a gigantic leap. But hey, I took that very leap! I went from Agnostic (pretty much) to catholicism without even a blink.

But then again, I was open to God and just wanted someone to ‘prove’ he was out there. Catholicism did that for me. I always had such a curiosity about catholcism and other denominations just didn’t quite match up to the Gospels and what Jesus teaching was teaching in them.

But I digress. Just don’t make a decision based on your experiences here. Know that not all Christians look upon atheism as bein inherently evil. I myself look at it as being lost, not evil. I don’t mean to insult you, but I know you probably look upon most Christians as being misinformed (hopefull not dellusional idiots as some here do). I can except misinformed * *

 

[happilycatholic]

Are you honestly suggesting that impurity (which, per Deuteronomy 22:23:24, includes the sin of being raped) warrants punishment by stoning? Can violating God’s laws (especially purity laws that have nothing to do with harming another person) justify torturing a human being to death?

This sort of moral equivocation just makes me want to hold up a big mirror on the face of Christians who say that atheists have no foundation for morals.

The Scriptures speak of impurity on many different levels. From a woman being on her monthy cycle to eating the wrong things. Can you show me where rape was punishable by stoning? I don’t mean this sarcastically, I can’t find it anywhere.

Jesus didn’t allow the stoning of the woman who was an adulterer, so I doubt was you are saying is accurate.

 

[Eleve]

Although, I have to say that I doubt your sincerity about discerning catholicism since you profess to not even believe in God in the first place. That’s kind of a gigantic leap. But hey, I took that very leap! I went from Agnostic (pretty much) to catholicism without even a blink.

Why is that such a huge leap? I believe that either the Catholic or Orthodox Church best preserves the beliefs and practices of early Christians, which are the most likely to be correct if God truly exists and truly did reveal himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Protestantism may involve fewer truth claims than Catholicism, but it actually makes less sense to me that the defining beliefs of Christianity could be true and the Sacred Traditions false than to say that the things that Protestants and Catholics agree on are only a part of the truth.

 

[Eleve]

The Scriptures speak of impurity on many different levels. From a woman being on her monthy cycle to eating the wrong things. Can you show me where rape was punishable by stoning? I don’t mean this sarcastically, I can’t find it anywhere.

Jesus didn’t allow the stoning of the woman who was an adulterer, so I doubt was you are saying is accurate.

I gave the book, chapter and verses in that quote. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

That Jesus did not allow the stoning of an adulterer (in an apocryphal passage, I might add) does not affect Humble’s argument about moral relativism at all. In fact, it strengthens it. Jesus is repudiating part of the Law that is supposed to have been directly revealed by God; that it changes in light of his teaching indicates that the morality taught in the Bible is not absolute.