Atheism - Paradox

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I gave the book, chapter and verses in that quote. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

That Jesus did not allow the stoning of an adulterer (in an apocryphal passage, I might add) does not affect Humble’s argument about moral relativism at all. In fact, it strengthens it. Jesus is repudiating part of the Law that is supposed to have been directly revealed by God; that it changes in light of his teaching indicates that the morality taught in the Bible is not absolute.
No, the story of the adulterer was meant to convey how legalism had replaced mercy (Jesus was trying to say to all those who were attempting to stone her that they too probably had committed sins the likes of which deserved stoning). If you see at the end of the story Jesus turns to the woman and says “go and sin no more”. Adultery is and always was a sin.
 
But, as Humble pointed out, it was once a sin that was punishable to death by stoning.

The relativism is not in the act, but in the punishment. In the Torah, stoning as punishment for adultery is commanded by God. In modern times, Jews and Christians alike condemn stoning as a reprehensible sin.
 
I gave the book, chapter and verses in that quote. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

That Jesus did not allow the stoning of an adulterer (in an apocryphal passage, I might add) does not affect Humble’s argument about moral relativism at all. In fact, it strengthens it. Jesus is repudiating part of the Law that is supposed to have been directly revealed by God; that it changes in light of his teaching indicates that the morality taught in the Bible is not absolute.
Could it be that what Jesus is repudiating is the Pharisees’ interpretation of that Law? And that is what evolved into something it wasn’t supposed to be? And *that’s *why God came to us in human form? So that we could fully understand the intentions and will of God from a human perspective and not just a legalistic view?

I don’t think Jesus ever “repudiated” the Law. That would mean he was repudiated his own law. No such thing ever happened. Christ came to us, admittedly, because those laws were being abused and used to opress people and not free them as it was intended to do. Hence the reason for Christ.
 
The laws specifically called for capital punishment of adultery and other offenses, and often specifically by stoning. I do not know how you can then say “do not stone adulterers” without repudiating that part of the law.
 
I gave the book, chapter and verses in that quote. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

That Jesus did not allow the stoning of an adulterer (in an apocryphal passage, I might add) does not affect Humble’s argument about moral relativism at all. In fact, it strengthens it. Jesus is repudiating part of the Law that is supposed to have been directly revealed by God; that it changes in light of his teaching indicates that the morality taught in the Bible is not absolute.
I know those verses, they speak of adultery, not rape. Where does it say a person who is raped is impure AND should be punished by stoning???
 
The laws specifically called for capital punishment of adultery and other offenses, and often specifically by stoning. I do not know how you can then say “do not stone adulterers” without repudiating that part of the law.
Because in the Law it actually says that at least a woman ( a man?) should have a trial with two pure witnesses, hence the exact same thing Jesus called for in the Gospel of John.
 
We’ve got two different things going on here:
  1. Stoning for being the victim of rape
    2.) Stoning for being an adulterer
Which one are you refuting? Or is it stoning altogether?

There had to be discipline and punishment just as there is now. Sometimes that punishment was death because it was an atonement for sin. That was not needed after Jesus’ death.

I’m not sure why this is hard to understand.

No where in Scripture can I find where God prescribed stoning for the victim of rape because she was impure, which is what Eleve first posted.

I do find where stoning was prescribed as punishment for adultery, IF they were caught in the act and only if by witnesses that were NOT guilty of sin. :\

That very rarely happened.
 
This is 292nd Mitzvot:

“You must not execute anybody without due proper trial and conviction. (Which required two pure witnesses)”

If they were doing so, they would be called out on it, just as Jesus did in John. 🙂
 
But, as Humble pointed out, it was once a sin that was punishable to death by stoning.

The relativism is not in the act, but in the punishment. In the Torah, stoning as punishment for adultery is commanded by God. In modern times, Jews and Christians alike condemn stoning as a reprehensible sin.
God issued stoning for such an act because the times were so bad that the only way in effect to keep the Jews in line was to instill fear (it was meant more than likely as a deterrent) so that they would be uncorrupted by the influences surrounding them (just read about the various tribes of that time and you will understand what I mean). Therefore, the practice was not meant to be something continuous (but only in direct relation to the times). Also, recollect there were cases of adultery committed in the OT and yet these people were not stoned? David and Bathsheba are a prime example of this. Furthermore, do not isolate this one law from the rest of OT scripture which also expresses mercy, understanding, and other such virtues, that is, the Jews were exhorted to use their judgement, it was not has if they were mindless robots who did not take into consideration context and/or mercy (hence mercy should supercede legalism and this was what was shown through Jesus with the adulterer). I believe God in many ways had no choice considering the level of misdeeds and evil prevailing on earth to issue such edicts. For the sake of all people who would be born God had to ensure that the Jews would be pure for through these people would Jesus be born to. With the advent of Jesus, we were no longer bound by mosaic laws because we had the Holy Spirit to lead us into all righteousness. Christians did not consider stoning necessary because God did not consider stoning necessary, at this point in time. It’s very hard to put God on the judgement seat when I lack omniscent powers to fully understand what He did and why he did it (but these are some of the reasons I think he did).
 
Could it be that what Jesus is repudiating is the Pharisees’ interpretation of that Law? And that is what evolved into something it wasn’t supposed to be? And *that’s *why God came to us in human form? So that we could fully understand the intentions and will of God from a human perspective and not just a legalistic view?

I don’t think Jesus ever “repudiated” the Law. That would mean he was repudiated his own law. No such thing ever happened. Christ came to us, admittedly, because those laws were being abused and used to oppress people and not free them as it was intended to do. Hence the reason for Christ.
Yes.
 
TO FRANCIS AND ELEVE:

Did you notice how all the posts concerning ZEROGOD (whose religion shall remain unmentioned) have been deleted?
 
There are other means by which you could convey the truth. I don’t like your approach. God bless.
Hi Josie

You seem to be doing a pretty good job using your own approach. I am not here in order to have people “like” me or my approach to Scripture. Good thing, huh, since I do not meet your strict standards? 😃 I am here to tell the truth about the gospel. Different approaches reach different people.
 
Hope, you seem to think that I am so totally ignorant of Christianity that you are doing me a favor by telling me about beliefs like hellfire. I am not. I was brought up as a Christian. Indeed, I don’t think I’ve seen a single quotation from Scripture quoted at me on these forums that I wasn’t already familiar with.

You also seem to think that I am interested in hearing what you believe. I am not; I probably know most of those beliefs already. What I am interested in hearing is what you can get me to believe. If you really care about doing that, you’re going to have to get over this exercise in evangelical onanism and speak to me using terms and arguments whose premises I already accept. If you think that repeating your own premises long enough will get me to accept them, I invite you to consider how unlikely you would be to give up your own faith from having the Qur’an quoted to you, or from an explanation of how Krishna is truly an avatar of Vishnu.
How can I possibly know that you know anything about Christianity unless you tell me? I cannot read your mind. How am I to know that you have already heard all quotations from Scripture about eternity on these forums so you are already familiar with them and do not want to hear them repeated?

No, I did not know that you would not be interested in hearing what I believe, but I thank you kindly for telling me, and I certainly will not spend any more of my time fruitlessly. 👍

Why do you want someone to try to get you to believe anything? You certainly did not like my approach using Scripture which I now find out that you were already familiar with, only I was not aware of that fact?

Have you asked God with a humble heart if He actually exists? And, have you asked, really wanting to know the answer, willing to follow Him no matter the cost, if He answers you?

Christianity is not for sissies. We are each given a cross to carry and if we carry it well until our deaths, then we reap the reward of eternal life. I personally believe that the reward is worth the cross, but the gate to eternal life is narrow and few find it. The road to hell is wide and many choose it. I sincerely hope you will be happy with your choice because it never ends. Please do not wait too long to make it, because God comes like a thief in the night. We never know when the moment of our death will be, but our eternal destiny is fixed at the moment of death. We get no more chances after death to change our minds.

Best wishes!
 
TO FRANCIS AND ELEVE:

Did you notice how all the posts concerning ZEROGOD (whose religion shall remain unmentioned) have been deleted?
really … I’ll go through and check it out. If that’s the case it just bolsters my point even more. Didn’t think this sort of thing happened anymore :eek::eek::eek:

BTW they apparently missed some (I just did a quick check & many of my posts are still there). Anyways, have fun deleting ideas you disagree with … that’s one way to convince yourself you’re right (but of course the intellectual consequences should be obvious to anyone who still has a brain left).
 
really … I’ll go through and check it out. If that’s the case it just bolsters my point even more. Didn’t think this sort of thing happened anymore :eek::eek::eek:

No worries, I get the hint & I’ll leave you guys to your, well whatever it is you guys do (I guess the moderators could have simply booted me; I’m not sure why they’re using the unusual tactic of overt censorship).
Francis, you didn’t read his other posts did you? I did. I’m glad he’s no longer with us. And furthermore who comes to a Catholic forum with the “religious affiliation” he had. Sorry! He got what he deserved.

P.S. You sound like you’re in one of your moods again.
 
Well, why did you believe he was?
he was charged with inappropriate relations with young boys. He got off … but doesn’t money always get you off (unless of course your crime is screwing over other rich people). I guess you think OJ was innocent as well? :confused:

Or now just because he’s dead we should ignore all that stuff & honor the guy just because he could sing and dance? It’s one thing if the guy committed a crime when he was really young, or was behaving poorly – but the stuff he was doing was self-destructive rather than harmful to others. But these events only occurred about ten years ago (maybe even a little less), so he was already in his forties; and he wasn’t just drinking and partying too much (which is normal for any famous musician). He was molesting little boys for goodness sake. Is there anything more despicable than that?
 
he was charged with inappropriate relations with young boys. He got off … but doesn’t money always get you off (unless of course your crime is screwing over other rich people). I guess you think OJ was innocent as well? :confused:
Francis, if your child had been molested by someone would you accept money and then let him off the hook, so that he could prey on other children? And no I don’t believe OJ was innocent.

I would hurt anyone who touched a child inappropriately I am extremely protective of them. Even an attempt to verbally abuse/insult them is enough to set me off.
 
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