Atheism - Paradox

  • Thread starter Thread starter swplan76
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The woman (and man) had the choice of NOT having sex if they were not ready to face the consequence that there was a chance of bringing new life into the world. Period!
Apparantly, without grace, lust is extremely hard to overcome.
Frankly from a personal responsibility perspective they also had the choice to have safe sex; and abrogated that responsibility (so I won’t argue that abortion is the result of poor choices, it clearly is). The problem is many people simply aren’t as smart and don’t control their behavior as well as you or I do. Most of the time it’s because they weren’t as fortunate as we were. I have a graduate level education, was raised by decent (though not perfect) parents, etc. as I’m sure you were. Have you ever tried to take a shortcut through the ghetto to avoid traffic? I have & I can assure you life for those folks isn’t a quaint suburb where the only problems are speeders and the occasional drunk driver.

So IMO these are separate issues. I laid out my justification for my personal stance on abortion. It’s a pragmatic issue for me (and I do not believe government action is appropriate in this area, nor do I think it can be effective – indeed so much has been proven by history). However, that said I acknowledge we have some serious problems in this country & abortion is one symptom of those problems.

You think religiosity is a necessary element for good behavior and smart personal choices; and of course I disagree (indeed I can post data that shows atheists are on average perhaps the best behaved and most productive citizens in this country). Frankly, IMO the abortion issue and the social / economic problems that lead to these sort of poor personal choices are separate from the debate over the merits of theism as compared to non-theism. I also acknowledge that people who call themselves atheists or agnostic (as opposed to people who aren’t knowledgeable enough to be involved with this issue either way) are usually highly educated people. If we were to look at equally educated people as a sub-group of religious folks I’m sure the numbers would be the same (statistics like representation among prison inmates, felons, etc). So before anyone jumps on me I’m not saying atheists are inherently smarter than theists. Obviously there are far more theists in this country (and at best non-theists represent less than 10% of our population in the US). So that fact in itself will skew the numbers.

However, the numbers are relevant when looking at the merits of theism and its impact on personal behavior. I contend that the impact is negligible at best.
 
First, let me clue you in on something. Just because YOU claim something to be illogical does not make it so k?
Just because you tossed aside your Faith doesn’t mean that every immoral act you commit suddenly is no longer immoral.

Furthermore, you seem to think I care about your opinion. You are no authority and your OPINION means nothing. As a grown adult that proclaims to be as educated as you are you are either ignorant on this or dishonest. I couldn’t care less about your sex life or your desire to fullfill your lust. You as a grown adult should know that when two people engage in sex there a chance that pregnancy can occur. It is an abhorrent evil to suggest that killing the life that comes from the fullfillment of your lustful act is somehow justified just because you can toss out stats or by attempting to reason away when life begins.

The desire to fulfill your own passions has made your “reasoning” on these issues illogical.
I can see obvious tension and hostility in your remarks … for all your claims about “not caring” what I think – it seems I obviously hit a nerve.

As for the rest of your remarks … illogical hyperbole. You missed my rational points because as you say, you don’t care 🙂
 
Frankly from a personal responsibility perspective they also had the choice to have safe sex; and abrogated that responsibility (so I won’t argue that abortion is the result of poor choices, it clearly is). The problem is many people simply aren’t as smart and don’t control their behavior as well as you or I do. Most of the time it’s because they weren’t as fortunate as we were. I have a graduate level education, was raised by decent (though not perfect) parents, etc. as I’m sure you were. Have you ever tried to take a shortcut through the ghetto to avoid traffic? I have & I can assure you life for those folks isn’t a quaint suburb where the only problems are speeders and the occasional drunk driver.

So IMO these are separate issues. I laid out my justification for my personal stance on abortion. It’s a pragmatic issue for me (and I do not believe government action is appropriate in this area, nor do I think it can be effective – indeed so much has been proven by history). However, that said I acknowledge we have some serious problems in this country & abortion is one symptom of those problems.

You think religiosity is a necessary element for good behavior and smart personal choices; and of course I disagree (indeed I can post data that shows atheists are on average perhaps the best behaved and most productive citizens in this country). Frankly, IMO the abortion issue and the social / economic problems that lead to these sort of poor personal choices are separate from the debate over the merits of theism as compared to non-theism. I also acknowledge that people who call themselves atheists or agnostic (as opposed to people who aren’t knowledgeable enough to be involved with this issue either way) are usually highly educated people. If we were to look at equally educated people as a sub-group of religious folks I’m sure the numbers would be the same (statistics like representation among prison inmates, felons, etc). So before anyone jumps on me I’m not saying atheists are inherently smarter than theists. Obviously there are far more theists in this country (and at best non-theists represent less than 10% of our population in the US). So that fact in itself will skew the numbers.

However, the numbers are relevant when looking at the merits of theism and its impact on personal behavior. I contend that the impact is negligible at best.
Yes! abortion is not the answer. Education is. As much as you do not want to adhere to the ethical principles laid out by the Church on these issues, the Church is right and you are wrong. Tossing out religion will NOT solve these problems, nor will appealing to stats. The Church’s logic on this cannot be ignored to anyone that is honest enough to study it.
 
There are arguably three interests at stake in the abortion debate. The woman’s, the governments, and the potential child’s. These interests have to be balanced. If it were a situation where abortion was non-existent prior to Roe v. Wade I might find some credence in your argument. However, for me this issue even transcends privacy and constitutional problems. It’s about pragmatism from my perspective.

First many states were already on track to legalize abortion prior to Roe (and many already had). Secondly there were as many abortions in 1972 (prior to Roe) as compared to today as a percentage of the population. The only difference is women seeking an abortion don’t have to face a life threatening choice (as I’ve already explained & provided more than adequate “credible” data to support above). Therefore as far as I’m concerned the ethical arguments are a side show to the realities involved. Do I want my government wasting my valuable tax dollars enforcing a new set of laws I already know they can’t enforce? Moreover, do I want my tax dollars supporting a regulatory scheme that I know will produce no benefit besides the death of thousands of women who otherwise wouldn’t die? The answers to all these questions are emphatically NO!

Therefore, as for me the CASE IS CLOSED.
Boxer’s False Statistic

On July 5, Sen. Boxer claimed that overturning Roe v. Wade would cost the lives of more than 5,000 pregnant women a year. That might have been true before the invention of penicillin and the birth control pill, but it’s not true now. The best evidence indicates that the annual deaths from illegal abortions would number in the hundreds, not thousands.

Boxer made the claim to support her position that the repeal of Roe would be the sort of “extraordinary circumstance” that could justify use of the filibuster to stop the confirmation of a nominee to the Supreme Court. The Associated Press quoted her this way:

Boxer: It means a minimum of 5,000 women a year will die. So all options are on the table.

But Boxer was just wrong. The figure comes from a 1936 study by Dr. Frederick Taussig who estimated that abortion claimed the lives of 5,000 to 10,000 women a year. It is impossible to know if his figures are accurate, given that no reliable records exist on the total number of illegal abortions that occurred, much less the number of deaths. Taussig extrapolated the data from trends in New York City and Germany.

His estimate is at least plausible. Women had few means to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and illegal abortions were often performed in less than sanitary settings. Furthermore, penicillin wasn’t in use until World War II, and not widely available to the civilian population until after the war ended in 1945. And Enovid, the first oral contraceptive, wasn’t available until 1957. But whether Taussig’s estimate was accurate or not, the conditions of the 1930’s don’t apply today.

From the 1940s through the 1960s, in fact, the best available evidence shows a dramatic decline in abortion-related deaths occurring even before the first states liberalized abortion laws in 1967. The Journal of the American Medical Association quotes official estimates from the National Center for Health Statistics showing an 89 percent decrease in abortion-related deaths by 1966. That is based on counting the number of death certificates that listed complications from abortion as the cause of death. The numbers reported for any given year are assuredly low since doctors could easily misstate the cause of death to protect the family. Still, these are the only figures that allow comparisons over time. There’s no reason to think that the rate of under-reporting would vary from one year to another, and so little reason to doubt that a steep downward trend took place long before Roe was decided.

Christopher Tietze, one of the leading experts on abortion trends, wrote in 1969 that it was plausible that 5,000 women a year died from abortion in the 1930s, but concluded that it cannot be anywhere near the true rate now.” He said that, although the 235 formally listed on death certificates in 1965 was too low, “in all likelihood it (the actual number) was under 1,000." An abortion statistics expert at the Guttmacher Institute, Stanley Henshaw, is studying abortion rates during the first part of the century. Though his data collection is unfinished, Henshaw concurred that Tietze’s estimate of fewer than 1,000 deaths is “reasonable.”

Boxer would have been correct to say that some increase in deaths of pregnant women would result should abortions be made illegal. But the number is much lower than she claimed. In 1972, the last year before Roe v. Wade legalized abortion nationwide, CDC counted only 39 deaths from illegal abortions based on surveys of health care providers, medical examiners’ reports, state and national records, and news reports. However, Henshaw said it’s difficult to quantify the number of deaths that could result today if Roe were overturned. For one thing, it is not clear how many states would actually make abortions illegal again. And Henshaw noted it is unlikely that the numbers of deaths would be as high as they were before 1973 due to medical advances and emergency services available today. In any case, Boxer’s 5,000 figure was nearly 70 years out of date, and clearly wrong.

factcheck.org/society/abortion_distortions.html

And here’s a statistical table showing the amounts of abortions from 1972 till 1995 from the CDC: abortionfacts.com/statistics/us_stats_abortion.asp
 
I can see obvious tension and hostility in your remarks … for all your claims about “not caring” what I think – it seems I obviously hit a nerve.

As for the rest of your remarks … illogical hyperbole. You missed my rational points because as you say, you don’t care 🙂
I am fired up. And only because you are spreadin falsehoods and potentionally leading people astray, not because of your “logic” on these issues, which is lacking and misleading.
 
FACT: There appears to be current evidence of at least as
many fatalities after legal as illegal abortions.
According to the C.D.C., in every year since abortion
was legalized, MORE women have been killed by legal
abortion than illegal abortion – as many as seven
times more deaths have been caused by legal abortion
and the number may be higher. [1]
Code:
    FACT:  Abortion deaths are classified as maternal mortality
           deaths.  Example: If 10 women died of abortion and
           no one died of any other maternal mortality cause,
           maternal mortality would show 10 deaths.  [2]

    N.O.W. claims: Until 1973, abortion was illegal in most
                   states.  However laws never stopped abortion;
                   they only made poor women and teenagers risk
                   their lives to obtain illegal abortions in
                   "back alleys" or to attempt self-induced
                   abortion.

                   Prior to Roe vs. Wade, the mortality rate
                   for illegal abortions performed outside
                   hospitals by persons without medical training
                   was an estimated 100 deaths per 100,000
                   abortions.

    FACT:  In 1972, the year before the legalization of abortion,
           there were only 39 deaths from illegal abortion and
           24 deaths from legal abortion. [3]

           The C.D.C. reports show 90 deaths from ALL types of
           abortion in 1972.  Legal, 24; illegal, 39; Spontaneous,
           25; Other, 0; Unknown, 2.  [4]

           According to the C.D.C., 18 women died as a result of
           abortion in 1982; of the 18 deaths, 11 were associated
           with legally-induced abortion, 6 with spontaneous
           abortion and 1 from illegal abortion.  [5]

    N.O.W. claims: Abortions were common even when illegal.  An
                   estimated one million abortions occurred
                   annually before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision.
                   Illegal abortions all too frequently resulted
                   in women being killed or their reproductive
                   organs being so damaged they were never able
                   to have children.

    FACT:  In 1972, the year before the legalization of abortion
           there were only 596,760 abortions.  Since then, abortions
           have more than tripled.  [6]

           An American obstetrician surveyed 486 colleagues: 87% had
           hospitalized women with complications from legal
           abortion; 91% had treated patients with complications
           from legal abortion; and 29 doctors reported patients
           dying from legally-induced abortions.  [7]

    N.O.W. claims: There is no proven biological moment when life
                   begins.

    FACT:  "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that
           conception [they defined fertilization and conception to
           be the same] marks the beginning of the life of a human
           being -- a being that is alive and is a member of the
           human species.  There is overwhelming agreement on this
           point in countless medical, biological, and scientific
           writing."  [8]
freegroups.net/library/The_Reading_Room/Christian_Ethics_n_Issues_2/Some_Facts_Abortion.shtml
 
Boxer’s False Statistic

On July 5, Sen. Boxer claimed that overturning Roe v. Wade would cost the lives of more than 5,000 pregnant women a year. That might have been true before the invention of penicillin and the birth control pill, but it’s not true now. The best evidence indicates that the annual deaths from illegal abortions would number in the hundreds, not thousands.
so to rebut my earlier remarks (listing CDC and WHO reports) you provide testimony from Sen. Boxer (of which I wasn’t even aware of … nor does it seem relevant since I didn’t make any of the claims she makes). Do you know the definition of red herring? I would agree many deaths from unsafe abortions were because of infection. However, you fail to realize that the numbers I cited are contemporary numbers (they’re not from the distant past); and of course today we have antibiotics, yet women are still dying from unsafe abortions (at alarming rates)?

Moreover, you don’t even address the futility of past regulatory schemes (my chief reason for opposing new laws restricting early term abortions among adult females).
 
FACT: There appears to be current evidence of at least as
many fatalities after legal as illegal abortions.
According to the C.D.C., in every year since abortion
was legalized, MORE women have been killed by legal
abortion than illegal abortion – as many as seven
times more deaths have been caused by legal abortion
and the number may be higher. [1]
Code:
    FACT:  Abortion deaths are classified as maternal mortality
           deaths.  Example: If 10 women died of abortion and
           no one died of any other maternal mortality cause,
           maternal mortality would show 10 deaths.  [2]

    N.O.W. claims: Until 1973, abortion was illegal in most
                   states.  However laws never stopped abortion;
                   they only made poor women and teenagers risk
                   their lives to obtain illegal abortions in
                   "back alleys" or to attempt self-induced
                   abortion.

                   Prior to Roe vs. Wade, the mortality rate
                   for illegal abortions performed outside
                   hospitals by persons without medical training
                   was an estimated 100 deaths per 100,000
                   abortions.

    FACT:  In 1972, the year before the legalization of abortion,
           there were only 39 deaths from illegal abortion and
           24 deaths from legal abortion. [3]

           The C.D.C. reports show 90 deaths from ALL types of
           abortion in 1972.  Legal, 24; illegal, 39; Spontaneous,
           25; Other, 0; Unknown, 2.  [4]

           According to the C.D.C., 18 women died as a result of
           abortion in 1982; of the 18 deaths, 11 were associated
           with legally-induced abortion, 6 with spontaneous
           abortion and 1 from illegal abortion.  [5]

    N.O.W. claims: Abortions were common even when illegal.  An
                   estimated one million abortions occurred
                   annually before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision.
                   Illegal abortions all too frequently resulted
                   in women being killed or their reproductive
                   organs being so damaged they were never able
                   to have children.

    FACT:  In 1972, the year before the legalization of abortion
           there were only 596,760 abortions.  Since then, abortions
           have more than tripled.  [6]

           An American obstetrician surveyed 486 colleagues: 87% had
           hospitalized women with complications from legal
           abortion; 91% had treated patients with complications
           from legal abortion; and 29 doctors reported patients
           dying from legally-induced abortions.  [7]

    N.O.W. claims: There is no proven biological moment when life
                   begins.

    FACT:  "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that
           conception [they defined fertilization and conception to
           be the same] marks the beginning of the life of a human
           being -- a being that is alive and is a member of the
           human species.  There is overwhelming agreement on this
           point in countless medical, biological, and scientific
           writing."  [8]
freegroups.net/library/The_Reading_Room/Christian_Ethics_n_Issues_2/Some_Facts_Abortion.shtml
of course I should believe a Christian ethics web site over the CDC and WHO?
 
Dr. Nathanson’s observation is borne out in the best official statistical studies available. According to the U.S. Bureau of Vital Statistics, there were a mere 39 women who died from illegal abortions in 1972, the year before Roe v. Wade.[4] Dr. Andre Hellegers, the late Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Georgetown University Hospital, pointed out that there has been a steady decrease of abortion-related deaths since 1942. That year there were 1,231 deaths. Due to improved medical care and the use of penicillin, this number fell to 133 by 1968.[5] The year before the first state-legalized abortion, 1966, there were about 120 abortion-related deaths.[6]
The 1972 numbers (by which time numerous states had already legalized the procedure) aren’t an accurate depiction of deaths caused by illegal abortion. The only way to accurately examine the numbers is to look at contemporary data (like the data I provided earlier). Indeed prior to 1969 the CDC didn’t even compile information on abortion. Moreover, we can only speculate what the number of deaths caused by unsafe abortions were prior to Roe (since the data suffers from severe under reporting given the fact that the procedure was illegal and any so called medical practitioner who performed an abortion, which resulted in the death of a female, had every incentive to cover it up). Moreover, these deaths were embarrassing for families, who likely also participated (to some degree) in covering these deaths up.

That said I’m sure some pro-choice advocacy groups take high end numbers and tout them as fact, which is also obviously an inaccurate methodology. This is why I ignore all those sources in favor of unbiased authority like the CDC and WHO (and contemporary numbers which are highly accurate).
 
BTW for the record Dr. Andre Hellegers was a Catholic Jesuit trained physician (and a vocal proponent in the pro-life movement). Not a guy I’m looking to for unbiased abortion facts.
 
I am fired up. And only because you are spreadin falsehoods and potentionally leading people astray, not because of your “logic” on these issues, which is lacking and misleading.
No … you’re only angry because I’m effectively refuting the falsehoods being spread by your side of this debate.
 
HA! I actually laughed out loud…yeah, keep believing that dude.
Maybe in YOUR head.
I do believe that … but I’m under no misconception that the simple logic of what I’m saying finds a receptive audience with you (or your compatriots in the pro-life movement). I’m really only interested in reaching those who haven’t formed a hardened opinion and who are open to considering the real facts.

This includes btw many if not most Roman Catholics (who are pro-choice, but hold a moderate position as I do).
 
The 1972 numbers (by which time numerous states had already legalized the procedure) aren’t an accurate depiction of deaths caused by illegal abortion. The only way to accurately examine the numbers is to look at contemporary data (like the data I provided earlier). Indeed prior to 1969 the CDC didn’t even compile information on abortion. Moreover, we can only speculate what the number of deaths caused by unsafe abortions were prior to Roe (since the data suffers from severe under reporting given the fact that the procedure was illegal and any so called medical practitioner who performed an abortion, which resulted in the death of a female, had every incentive to cover it up). Moreover, these deaths were embarrassing for families, who likely also participated (to some degree) in covering these deaths up.

That said I’m sure some pro-choice advocacy groups take high end numbers and tout them as fact, which is also obviously an inaccurate methodology. This is why I ignore all those sources in favor of unbiased authority like the CDC and WHO (and contemporary numbers which are highly accurate).
Did you read my articles, did you see what was written? It explains quite clearly what the number of these unreported botched abortions would be. So please stop using your own rationale to support something that has been found to be false. There were not 10 000 botched abortions a year. That is a lie that was spread by NARAL, of which Dr. Nathanson was a co-founder of, before coming to realize that what he was doing was evil. He was an atheist when became convinced that abortion was murder using science and the advent of the ultra sound machine as his rationale.
 
I do believe that … but I’m under no misconception that the simple logic of what I’m saying finds a receptive audience with you (or your compatriots in the pro-life movement). I’m really only interested in reaching those who haven’t formed a hardened opinion and who are open to considering the real facts.

This includes btw many if not most Roman Catholics (who are pro-choice, but hold a moderate position as I do).
Here are some ***real facts ***for you:

Having sex comes with responsibility, foreknowledge and the consequence that it may result in the bringing about of new life.
Abortion is the killing of that new life that the sexual act created. To people such as yourself it is the final “safety net” to you NOT being a father.
Therefore, if your “safe sex” fails and pregnancy entails, “pro choice” people such as yourself have to reason away that that is not a real person in the early stages of the womb. To avoid you responsiblity, consequence and the moral implications that follow. If successful, you clanging conscience is silenced or deadened to the fact that you just ended the life of human. No mental gynmastics, science or otherwise, or stats etc. can get around that.
 
Here are some ***real facts ***for you:

Having sex comes with responsibility, foreknowledge and the consequence that it may result in the bringing about of new life.
Abortion is the killing of that new life that the sexual act created. To people such as yourself it is the final “safety net” to you NOT being a father.
Therefore, if your “safe sex” fails and pregnancy entails, “pro choice” people such as yourself have to reason away that that is not a real person in the early stages of the womb. To avoid you responsiblity, consequence and the moral implications that follow. If successful, you clanging conscience is silenced or deadened to the fact that you just ended the life of human. No mental gynmastics, science or otherwise, or stats etc. can get around that.
what you’re doing here is the common fallacy of ad hom attacks to divert away from the logic of my position. Moreover, you’re making baseless assumptions about what my reaction might be if I suddenly discovered that I impregnated a woman. I can assure you abortion would be the furthest thing from my mind (not that I even feel like I owe anyone an explanation for what my potential conduct would be if a hypothetical situation like an unplanned pregnancy arises, but I’ll give it anyway since I know a common tactic in Catholic debate technique seems to be personal attacks and besmirching the character of any proponent of opposing ideas).

Frankly it’s quite sad if you ask me; and it further confirms the insincerity of claims that Christianity is a loving tolerant religion.
 
huhhhh!!!
Jam keeps trying to argue that pro-choice people make their arguments because they want to justify what their consciences tell them is murder. He/She seems to think that my pro-choice stance is a rationalization that I came up with just in case I ever happen to need an abortion. :rolleyes:

Besides being factually wrong, his argument about our motivations has nothing to do with whether an unborn child is a human person with a right to life from the moment of conception. It is only relevant to the atheist-bashing that plagued this thread several pages back.
 
I do believe that … but I’m under no misconception that the simple logic of what I’m saying finds a receptive audience with you (or your compatriots in the pro-life movement). I’m really only interested in reaching those who haven’t formed a hardened opinion and who are open to considering the real facts.

This includes btw many if not most Roman Catholics (who are pro-choice, but hold a moderate position as I do).
The “real” facts Francis, go read my posts, and then tell me about real facts. You purposely pick and choose your facts. And what does moderate mean but lukewarm, personally, it doesn’t do anyone any good to be lukewarm about human rights. The Declaration makes it clear that everyone has inalienable rights endowed by their Creator, and the first and most important right is the right to life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top