Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

you don’t get suckered into secular culture … you get suckered into religion. Secular culture is a subjective term. Democracy is a secular concept (no it’s not a religious concept, or even close, since democracy is in opposition to theocracy) … I wouldn’t say you get suckered into it? On the other hand communism is a secular concept … but you generally don’t get suckered into it (you usually get forced into it).

So the statements you make, while great for bumper stickers (and slogans), don’t pass the smell test when you really apply them to the problems at issue.

From the point of view of a Catholic who sees the immorality generated by a secular culture I know that many Catholics fail to live up to their faith mostly because our morals are ridiculed. Catholics are being inundated by secular viewpoints expounded by every conceivable medium of communication and lost in a morass of moral relativism. Catholics therefore are being suckered into a secular culture that denegrates our faith. So as I stated earlier Catholics who if they were loyal to the teachings of the Church would have refrained from contraceptives as expressed in Humanae Vitae and not fallen for the lies of secular culture (sexual revolution) would be pro-creating far above the required replacement level and so would have resolved the current problem we see now in the western world. And immigration will one day be necessary (not now as it will take a bit of time before the low birth rates takes effect).

 

[josie_L]

Some sources say the Pentecostal church is growing so fast (in Roman Catholic strongholds like Latin America) that it’s a real challenge for Rome. Others say the CC is growing in “the South” (mostly Africa). However, Africa is in flux and the numbers are hard to quantify (and the numbers don’t seem to take into account the transient nature of modern Christians, including Catholics, who in many cases shift between different denominations many times).

Obviously it also doesn’t take into account the average western Catholic who essentially no longer agrees with Rome on many (if not most) issues. Moreover, the CC is losing substantial numbers in Europe to atheism or agnosticism (or just simple disinterest).

I think Catholicism probably is shrinking; but even if it’s raw numbers are rising … they’re accomplishing it through body count evangelism. Let’s face it – I bet I could get the average African to believe in my new religion of the giant hamburger monster if I offered them some roast beef, mash potatoes, and a Coke

However, to say Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in the world is wrong. Numerous sources affirm the Pentecostal denomination is growing faster than any other denomination (or religion) in the world; by far. I don’t even think Catholicism runs a distant second. Protestants are more adapt to rapid growth in poor regions because they’re more flexible and they travel light. Moreover, converting Catholics to protestantism seems like easy picking for some reason.

However, I’m under no illusion that religion will continue to spread its message of false hope to those who unfortunately don’t know any better (and are venerable to manipulation). The worse thing is evangelists and missionaries are believers themselves, so they don’t even realize they’re taking advantage of people facing horrible circumstances.

Francis, maybe you can use a little tact when you approach such a subject as this, I’m not exactly an unfeeling human being you know? And I resent how you delight in the fact that Catholicism is on the “brink of disaster” (which I do not see) as you seem to think it is, and furthermore we do not offer anything but the truth, which goes hand in hand with helping the natives. But it is not used as a means to evangelize or coerce them into our faith as the Pentecostals are doing in Latin America (that is why Catholicism is in part easy pickings) with the Catholics. Nor for that matter do we take it upon ourselves to lie about other faiths like these evangelicals do. Blessed Mother Theresa never offered the help she did to the untouchables so that they would convert she did it solely out of love. There was no coercion on her part or the part of the other sisters, they did what they did because they were acting out the gospel message.

P.S. No one has stated that Catholicism is the fastest growing religion (not me anyways). And Protestants are flexible, because they fudge with the undiluted truth of Catholicism.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

And immigration will one day be necessary (not now as it will take a bit of time before the low birth rates takes effect).

we’ll have robots to do the work in the coming decades

 

[josie_L]

we’ll have robots to do the work in the coming decades

Yes, of course, in your wacky world science will always have the answer.

 

[josie_L]

Some sources say the Pentecostal church is growing so fast (in Roman Catholic strongholds like Latin America) that it’s a real challenge for Rome. Others say the CC is growing in “the South” (mostly Africa). However, Africa is in flux and the numbers are hard to quantify (and the numbers don’t seem to take into account the transient nature of modern Christians, including Catholics, who in many cases shift between different denominations many times).

Obviously it also doesn’t take into account the average western Catholic who essentially no longer agrees with Rome on many (if not most) issues. Moreover, the CC is losing substantial numbers in Europe to atheism or agnosticism (or just simple disinterest).

I think Catholicism probably is shrinking; but even if it’s raw numbers are rising … they’re accomplishing it through body count evangelism. Let’s face it – I bet I could get the average African to believe in my new religion of the giant hamburger monster if I offered them some roast beef, mash potatoes, and a Coke

However, to say Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in the world is wrong. Numerous sources affirm the Pentecostal denomination is growing faster than any other denomination (or religion) in the world; by far. I don’t even think Catholicism runs a distant second. Protestants are more adapt to rapid growth in poor regions because they’re more flexible and they travel light. Moreover, converting Catholics to protestantism seems like easy picking for some reason.

However, I’m under no illusion that religion will continue to spread its message of false hope to those who unfortunately don’t know any better (and are venerable to manipulation). The worse thing is evangelists and missionaries are believers themselves, so they don’t even realize they’re taking advantage of people facing horrible circumstances.

You know Francis I just realized something, I think it eases your conscience to know that there others who are defecting from the faith, maybe now you feel more justified. I don’t know, but from my perspective it’s as if you have absolutely nothing positive to say about Catholicism. Nothing. If she does something good you assume it’s because she wants converts, if she has as she did, helped out the Jews in WW2 you say it wasn’t enough or not many, if she helped in science you say it was just a little . . . etc. You do everything in your power to minimize what she’s done. You focus on the bad at the exclusion of the good. You come here to this forum to denounce her and I think you do this because you wish to see us lose our faith as you have. Moreover, I was wrong when at first I thought you were not a militant atheist you are, For like Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, and Harris your wish is to eradicate all religions. And you have such a low opinion of us that you see no reason to even temper your disdain.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

You know Francis I just realized something, I think it eases your conscience to know that there others who are defecting from the faith, maybe now you feel more justified. I don’t know, but from my perspective it’s as if you have absolutely nothing positive to say about Catholicism. Nothing. If she does something good you assume it’s because she wants converts, if she has as she did, helped out the Jews in WW2 you say it wasn’t enough or not many, if she helped in science you say it was just a little . . . etc. You do everything in your power to minimize what she’s done. You focus on the bad at the exclusion of the good. You come here to this forum to denounce her to us. Do you wish to see us lose our faith as you have? Do you think me your enemy? Is the Catholic church standing in the way of your happiness?

I like Gregorian Chants

but no … I know most cannot think as I do (we have our own elect; the Übermensch)

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Yes, of course, in your wacky world science will always have the answer.

what’s wrong with robots?

 

[josie_L]

what’s wrong with robots?

Robots don’t have a heart.

 

[josie_L]

I like Gregorian Chants

but no … I know most cannot think as I do (we have our own elect; the Übermensch)

And I am glad that most cannot think (believe) as you do. Please reread my post as I did some editing to it.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Robots don’t have a heart.

they’re gonna cut my grass, not raise my kids or cuddle with me at night?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

And I am glad that most cannot think (believe) as you do. Please reread my post as I did some editing to it.

most people can’t handle it

but I don’t think the world is quite ready for an end to religion. Without an adequately developed alternative (a new man) it would risk existential and moral nihilism. However, I do certainly abhor the asceticism of the stoics and Christians; and I take a hybrid view compared to Nietzsche. I guess the closest description of my own view is a transhumanist (the idea that we should strive to use science and technology to improve our mental and physical characteristics).

While theists are generally an obstruction to this progress, the obstruction is always overcome (and arguably the usefulness of religion outweighs the negatives … for now); though eventually there must be an end to religion if we’re ever to evolve to a higher state.

 

[josie_L]

they’re gonna cut my grass, not raise my kids or cuddle with me at night?

But Francis wouldn’t you want a robotic wife she’d do everything for you? Maybe science can create robots to look like humans (kinda like the terminator).

 

[josie_L]

most people can’t handle it

but I don’t think the world is quite ready for an end to religion. Without an adequately developed alternative (a new man) it would risk existential and moral nihilism.

So when do you think this is going to happen? The end of religion. And are you planning on building a world based on Neitzsche’s philosophy?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

So when do you think this is going to happen? The end of religion. And are you planning on building a world based on Neitzsche’s philosophy?

First … no robot wife (that’s absurd). Second, no I’m not 100% in accord with Nietzsche. He lived too long ago to even imagine the type of world we can imagine today. We have nanobots that are many times smaller than human cells. Within decades we’ll be able to build tiny robots that we can insert into our cells; and you can let your imagination run wild from there.

As Freud said; our natural inclination is to conquer nature (including our own). My only fear of religion is that it’s typically used by the ruling elite to manipulate the masses. Right now Europe is leading the way in terms of their general philosophy. I hope our momentum here in the US continues in the direction it’s going.

 

[josie_L]

First … no robot wife (that’s absurd). Second, no I’m not 100% in accord with Nietzsche. He lived too long ago to even imagine the type of world we can imagine today. We have nanobots that are many times smaller than human cells. Within decades we’ll be able to build tiny robots that we can insert into our cells; and you can let your imagination run wild from there.

As Freud said; our natural inclination is to conquer nature (including our own). My only fear of religion is that it’s typically used by the ruling elite to manipulate the masses. Right now Europe is leading the way in terms of their general philosophy. I hope our momentum here in the US continues in the direction it’s going.

Why is a robot wife absurd, I mean we have artificial wombs, and we’re already thinking of implanting chips in people’s brain, why not create robotic people? I remember there was a movie about this, in the end he falls in love with the robot (she has feelings you know). Anyways it would be a scientific advancement, right? And furthermore what is conquering our nature supposed to mean? And if it means what I think it means I rather think I’m doing that already. It’s understood as curbing your sinful nature.

I think your fear of religion is as real as the boogeyman. Talk about holy batman paranoia.

 

[Lilyflower]

The truth is the bible is false & none of it really happened (well, maybe there’s some occasional historical accuracy). The Nile never turned into blood, and a god man never cheated death. There are no flying angels, talking snakes, or whatever. Whether or not something beyond our cognition exists I can’t say; but while I can’t say what it is … I can say what it’s not (and it’s not described by any contemporary world religion).

Dear humble in doubt,

If it never happened then how do you explain the witness testimony of those who said ‘it did?’

What sensible man [or woman] would be willing to die let alone suffer the most horrendous tortures before and during death for something they knew was a lie?

Most of His Apostles including the last Apostle Paul, all suffered imprisonment, torture and death. Why would they if the cause for which they suffered was not true?

What man would willingly be nailed to a cruciform to suffer countless hours of agonising cramps, thirst from dehydration, hunger, intense sunburn for upto 5-days before release by death, for a lie?

How do you account for the testimony of Elijah 1 Kings 19:1-21 Key Verse: 12

“After the earthquake came a fire, after the fire came a gentle breeze.”

The passage is about the time when Elijah met the LORD God personally and found a clear life direction.

I too have had the SAME experience.

I must confess that the language used does not accurately describe what took place. Language has its limitations. Beyond natural phenomena, it is useless as it cannot describe the indescribable!. I have come to realise there is no language to describe what I experienced but Elijah’s description is perhaps as near to it while paradoxically about as far away as is possible.

It also took place in this earthly dimension while strangely those whom I was with when the event took place, had fallen into an unwakable sleep from which they could not be roused as it was my wish they experienced it too but I was unable to wake them.I shook them pretty hard but they were as if anaethetised. They were not under the influence of anything. Nor are [were] they given to such intense sleep.

But of course, I cannot prove to you what I experienced, nor can I describe it. But what I can say is that in the presence of Almighty God, there is an intense peace I have never experienced anything of the like or remotely near to it.

In the presence of Almighty God, we simply lose all interest in earthly existence. Everything pales into insignificance. Nothing else matters, all that counts is the intense desire to be with the Eternal Spirit we call God, drawn like iron filings to a very powerful magnet.

You said:
it’s not described by any contemporary world religion.

You are ironically spot on but for different reasons:

To speak of both the power, the peace and the love of God, there is no language, sorry, language just completely fails.

Disbelieve if you wish Brother [or Sister], I can only witness to what I have seen, heard and experienced. Call me a liar too if you wish. It makes no difference nor diminishes by one single iota that experience. It will remain with me as vividly as the day it happened.

Blessings and peace.

Please allow me to pray for you to come to knowledge of the truth.

 

[josie_L]

Do you remember this post you wrote?

****Not only did I often question my faith when I was Catholic, but even now I often question my lack of faith. Certainly there is the problem of thinking that nature created itself – for which I have no easy answer for. ****Inversely there is the fact that all the god’s depicted by the various world religions refuse to reveal themselves to modern man. I’ve heard some Catholic posters say he does – through the church. As if that’s an adequate rebuttal to my objection (quite frankly it’s ludicrous, since it’s obvious what I mean). When I say god doesn’t show himself today I mean in the way he allegedly showed himself to the ancients (as depicted in scripture). We can hardly say there’s been any documented cases of people being raised from death (particularly after being dead for several days). There’s no more prophets or apostles who have called on the power of god to split an ocean, turn rivers into blood, destroy cities, cause floods, etc. The reasonable side of me understands religion is ancient mythology built on mans lack of understanding of our own physical universe and biology. **However, I still find the bible to be a fascinating book & I still can’t conclusively say there is no grand architect of the universe. **

So do you still doubt at times? And what goes on in your head when you do? How do you feel?

 

[Lilyflower]

Do you remember this post you wrote?

**** When I say god doesn’t show himself today I mean in the way he allegedly showed himself to the ancients (as depicted in scripture).****

But He DOES continue to show Himself in our day and to many people in pretty much the SAME way He showed Himself in ancient times.

Of course witnesses cannot prove to anyone what they witnessed. Neither can they describe it. Scriptural descriptions of personal experiences of Almighty God fail because language fails because there is no language to describe the indescribable. There are no verbs that adequately explain what it is like to experience Almighty God or which explain His peace, power and love!

All witnesses can do is witness and offer themselves to lie detector tests or any other test devised by man to try to prove otherwise.

Blessings and peace.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Why is a robot wife absurd, I mean we have artificial wombs, and we’re already thinking of implanting chips in people’s brain, why not create robotic people?

because from a human standpoint it’s important that we remain in control.

I remember there was a movie about this, in the end he falls in love with the robot (she has feelings you know).

Stepford wives maybe?

Anyways it would be a scientific advancement, right? And furthermore what is conquering our nature supposed to mean? And if it means what I think it means I rather think I’m doing that already. It’s understood as curbing your sinful nature.

I have no sin nature … so how can I beat something that doesn’t exist? Conquering nature means figuring out our biology, extending our lives, curing disease, controlling our atmosphere, and so on.

I think your fear of religion is as real as the boogeyman. Talk about holy batman paranoia.

it’s holy paranoia batman … get it right dang it

Anyway it’s the same fear theists express toward us … i.e. we’re bent on ending religion and all that sort of rhetoric. Indeed it’s no secret that religion actively seeks to promote its agenda using the political machine here in the US (religious groups do this quite openly). From our perspective we believe we need to defend ourselves against the potential encroachment of theocracy.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

But He DOES continue to show Himself in our day and to many people in pretty much the SAME way He showed Himself in ancient times.

when is the last time you heard about an ocean being split in half or a river turned to blood?