Atheism seems more plausible. What else can I do to grow in certainty or find reasons to believe?

[808Catholic]

I came to that same conclusion, again another reason for agnosticism: That the evidence was equal between theism and atheism (i.e. both sides have equally strong/plausible arguments), that God requires us to make “a free choice”, one that is not simply logically following evidence to a “most reasonable conclusion” (as if following a garden path to the center of a park). However, this seems to be at odds with that Vatican Council declaring that God can be known by reason alone.

I agree that we can know God by reason alone.

Who created the incredibly complex Universe? Did it just happen?

How did life begin? Again, just chance?

How do miracles occur? What is the source?

There’s only one answer: God. Otherwise, we have to believe in an incredible amount of coincidences happening sequentially to make all these things happen.

 

[Gregory_Olson]

It is a bit peculiar for you to respond to me by instead responding to someone else. To be honest, I don’t see the value in spending the time to read your refutations of this guy, because I myself object to most of what he said (and I already understand my own reasons for not agreeing with him). Your response to him would only address my questions here if I had agreed with him.
Well, thanks. We’ll see if I ever get to it: Every dollar I spend adds 43 cents to my debt (assuming a 25-year repayment period with static interest rate), and I’m at a Japanese university so English library contents are limited to scientific journals and secular classics like Charles Dickens.

Hey again,

Your reply made me laugh. I agree he was misguided, and I see now I should have just left him out of it. If you had to choose to read one, you should have read what I had to say–I quoted our conversation because the meat of my reply was what put me at peace with the same issues you described struggling with in the OP.
Anyway. I was doing my best to respond to you.

I also think those philosophy books Trent Horn suggested would have helped you. Someone here mentioned ‘mechanistic lens…’ The issue comes back to epistemology–It’s absolutely true Christian faith isn’t based wholly or even chiefly in physical evidence.

I’m sorry about the college debt. 43 cents to a dollar is insane.
I have a friend here at my school who’s in just as deep or even deeper, and yeah he lives like a monk.

Does your school have a Catholic group or a Newman center?

Greg

 

[Bradski]

It’s been on my reading list for what seems more than a year, after it was recommended to me here earlier. It seems I’m not in a position to read it, since I haven’t yet read it. See my other comments about lacking time and money.

Yet you understand enough about his works to spend most of one post arguing against his position.

You have an Internet connection and there is more information and discussions about Aquinas out there that is totally free that you could read in a lifetime. And that’s actually the amount of time you have available - a lifetime.

You say you have no time, yet you spend hours thinking about and writing nearly a thousand posts.

Most of what Aquinas has written is available for download from Amazon. The Kindle app is free and the books are about 12 bucks. That’s about the cost of three coffees in Japan.

By the way, you don’t get any bonus points for believing in God. You can still be a good Christian even if you don’t. Don’t lie or steal, honour your parents, love your neighbour, forgive your enemies, do good works…just live a worthwhile life.

If you don’t believe and it turns out that you were wrong and He does exist, I’m sure you’ll be rewarded for a life well lived. Kind of a win win situation.

 

[ethereality]

that’s actually the amount of time you have available - a lifetime.

I’m sick of looking for God in books. I’m sick of looking for God, period. For that matter, I’m sick of my reality as well (i.e. all my troubles). I guess I should schedule more free-time to deal with the mental burnout I’m currently experiencing.

 

[DCNBILL]

How can I rejoice in something that is undefined? What Jesus means by “blessed” here I do not know, and heaven is likewise unclear to me.
I’m getting sick of people telling me this, because there is no one here in my city in Japan who can be my spiritual director.

---

I replied to posts here somewhat out-of-order, but rest assured, I do intend to answer every question asked of me (e.g. those wanting the case for atheism fleshed out a bit). I’m just pressed for time, and need to get to work now.

Jesus is not undefined He is God Himself. Of course Heaven is unclear to us but assuredly it is our destination and final home.

Sorry for your situation there. Are there not any religious orders around you? I pray that you do find that your faith is not in vane.

God bless,

 

[NM505StKate]

Ether: You have some very good questions. My advice is to follow where the evidence leads you. Hang in there and if you need a friend to vent to I am here,

 

[Wesrock]

Wes, I understand what you’re saying, but at the same time, if God exists, and if God is everywhere, then we shouldn’t need to think a certain way to experience Him.

This is why I spent so much time rambling yesterday. I’m not saying we just change our views to find God, merely that your own view isn’t any more natural than Aquinas. His metaphysics stem directly from observation and nature. You seem to consider actuality and potentiality abstractions. Does a rubber ball change into goo without heat to melt it? Does it change from red to blue unless it is somehow painted? Does it bounce unless a force is applied? Actuality and potentiality are just observations, not abstractions. Cause and effect isn’t an additional assumption that you must make, it’s simple a different one. Aquinas agrees that nature is the strongest argument for God. That’s what his argument is all about.

I think you also misunderstand his argument about varying degrees of perfection. We certainly do compare things with one another, but we also compare them to the overall concept. A triangle has three straight sides and angles that add up to 180 degrees. In reality, no matter how precise the tools, whatever triangle we draw or find is going to be imperfect. Some may be better drawn then others, but I don’t simply understand triangularity by comparing one triangle to another. We recognize that poorly drawn dmtriangles and better drawn triangles are based on the same thing because it has a common reference point. Our conception of triangularity is of a perfect, ideal triangle. When we draw triangles as careful as we can, we try to match them up with that concept. We can say one triangle is more good (at matching the concept, or form of a triangle) than another.

Aquinas’ example with fire was based on incorrect notions of physics, but that just makes it a poor example and doesn’t actually undermine the point he was trying to make.

Anyway, I’m still learning Thomistic metaphysics, but to go back to where I started, I don’t think anyone starts from a neutral position. We all operate with certain metaphysical assumptions, even if we’re unaware of it because we grew up with them because it just happened to be prevalent in the time and society we were born jn. I’m not suggesting you add another layer on top, but to take a step back and re-evaluate.

Anyway, I think I’ll leave it at that if you want to respond (or not). I feel more clear spoken than yesterday. I think I’ve made my point the best I’m able to. Not an argument for Thomistic metaphysics, mind, certainly much more could be said about that, but my point being just a book suggestion.

Good luck.

 

[808Catholic]

I’m sick of looking for God in books. I’m sick of looking for God, period. For that matter, I’m sick of my reality as well (i.e. all my troubles). I guess I should schedule more free-time to deal with the mental burnout I’m currently experiencing.

I suggest you set aside 10 minutes of “God” time. Sit in a quiet place, ask God to be with you, and still your thoughts. This is what we do during Adoration but God is all around us so this will work for you anywhere. You don’t have to be in a church to worship God. Try this for a week and see if that recharges your spirit.

God Bless you.

 

[Ron_Conte]

OP,

We believe based on the virtue of faith, not primarily because the teachings are the best explanations, or can refute all contrary arguments, or it seems more probable, or any similar basis. So, stop trying to reply to all the doubts and arguments from agnostics and atheists. Make a leap of faith and live the Gospel.

To strengthen the virtue of faith, I suggest the virtues of love and hope. Focus on Christian charity toward other persons, and pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet with hope for help from God for yourself and others.

Self-denial is also helpful in strengthening faith.

 

[fred_conty]

I am so sorry to hear of you physical suffering, and now your spiritual suffering too. This must be a very difficult time for you. But usually if we let our problems have time and patience, they do get resolution.

I believe you did mention “burn out”. And I agree that this is what is at the center of disturbance. It is a time when there doesn’t seem to be any answers and all looks dark with no good ending.

It is a time when we do need to sit back and take a bit of fresh air in and try to focus on some other part of our life to give us a vacation from our dark thoughts.
In doing this, when we return to our problem, it doesn’t seem so bad and we seem to be more level headed. So I would suggest to take a break from all of this, and just let Jesus take it all into his lap for now, and let Jesus worry about it. Try to enjoy yourself and lighten up your load.

Just one more thought. Many a saint has said how God has enlightened them and given them knowledge that would take months if not years to gain from prayer. It seems God does this in a flash and with clearity. It just seems to me that if you went to the blessed Sacrament and just sat there for a while not thinking of anything but his presence to you, that he might just have some insights to all of what is bothering you. Just tell him you need him and love him and depend on him. And he will be gentle with you.

May the Heart of Jesus be kind to you in your hour of need. I will think of you in prayer. Bless you now and always.

 

[ethereality]

Jesus is not undefined He is God Himself.

You misread: I was saying “blessed” was not defined, i.e. “You’re miserable? Good, because you’re blessed!”

Are there not any religious orders around you?

I am in Japan where about 0.5% of the population is catholic Christian. The people in religious orders are too remote, too busy, or too poor at English to talk with me.

 

[808Catholic]

You misread: I was saying “blessed” was not defined, i.e. “You’re miserable? Good, because you’re blessed!”

I am in Japan where about 0.5% of the population is catholic Christian. The people in religious orders are too remote, too busy, or too poor at English to talk with me.

Are you close to a US military base? There’s a chaplain at each base. I used to work on one of those bases and believe Catholics outnumbered the other religions so the Base Chaplain was Catholic. We hosted a nun from an outside convent and she taught CCD for our chapel. Great Sister from the East Coast. Very sorry to hear she was finally recalled to the East Coast because of personal health reasons. Still, see if you can attend a military base chapel. Good luck and God Bless you.

 

[WillyAL]

Who created the incredibly complex Universe? Did it just happen?

How did life begin? Again, just chance?

How do miracles occur? What is the source?

There’s only one answer: God. Otherwise, we have to believe in an incredible amount of coincidences happening sequentially to make all these things happen.

I have always found this argument to be extremely unsatisfying. It’s an awfully huge leap from “How did the universe coming into being?” to “God did it.”

I’m reminded of the two goldfish having a theological discussion:

“Do you think God exists?”

“Of course God exists! Who do you think changes the water?”

There may very well be a non-supernatural explanation for the origin of the universe and for life. We just can’t see it from here.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Dear O.P.

please for the moment consider the place where human feelings, human emotion,human thought, memory and reason exist. This is a spiritual realm. It is very real by any materialist definition but its forms exist as patterns and subtle changes in chemistry and acts of love and hope and peace and joy and fun and pain and confidence…

That spiritual realm is an entirely different universe than where the materialistic laws apply, but we take for granted its existence but understand very little of its constructs.

God has given you a part in creation, and using your spiritual gifts you can be a part of it. Now if he made himself known to you in the way that you appear to understand the material world, you would no longer be a separate spirit from him, able to make unique contributions to creation.

So the separation you feel from God is a natural outcome of the way he created you. Once you understand that, then you no longer worry that God is so hidden from you because you realize that he must be.

But at the same time, God can do anything, and I suggest that you humbly pray for him to show himself to you in a way that you can understand. Be clear about what you seek, but not how he should go about it. His response will surprise you.

 

[808Catholic]

I have always found this argument to be extremely unsatisfying. It’s an awfully huge leap from “How did the universe coming into being?” to “God did it.”

I’m reminded of the two goldfish having a theological discussion:

“Do you think God exists?”

“Of course God exists! Who do you think changes the water?”

There may very well be a non-supernatural explanation for the origin of the universe and for life. We just can’t see it from here.

LOL - an even bigger leap from 2 gold fish to human! I get your point.

Consider the complexity of the Universe. All that mass, all that energy, all ordered so it doesn’t just collapse and destroy itself. The Law of Entropy states that everything reduces to its lowest level which is chaos. We see the results in a piece of iron ore. We mine that ore, refine it, and make steel. Left to its own, that piece of steel will oxidize and rust and reach its lowest state. With the latest scientific estimate of 15 billions years, you would think the Universe itself would have reached its lowest state. We see black holes “consuming” stars, planets, and space gases and there appears to be many of these black holes. Why haven’t they “consumed” all the matter yet?

While I appreciate your intelligent questioning of the presence of God, who or what else could keep the Universe in existence? You have said “we don’t know” and I claim God is the Author of the Universe. We both operate on faith even though we both lack hard proof.

 

[NM505StKate]

I have always found this argument to be extremely unsatisfying. It’s an awfully huge leap from “How did the universe coming into being?” to “God did it.”

I’m reminded of the two goldfish having a theological discussion:

“Do you think God exists?”

“Of course God exists! Who do you think changes the water?”

There may very well be a non-supernatural explanation for the origin of the universe and for life. We just can’t see it from here.

Indeed there may be. It is something scientists today are searching for. We may never know it in our life time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Indeed there may be. It is something scientists today are searching for. We may never know it in our life time.

And even if there were, does that negate the possibility of God? Does it call into question the Bible, or Christian teaching? Because let’s face it, nothing comes from nothing. There had to be SOMETHING that set that event in motion. . That ‘non supernatural event’ would still have to come from something. . .or Some One.

And that being so, God STILL created the universe. . .using methods that themselves utilized whatever material that ‘naturally’ evolved. . .according to His plan.

 

[mikekle]

I have always found this argument to be extremely unsatisfying. It’s an awfully huge leap from “How did the universe coming into being?” to “God did it.”

I’m reminded of the two goldfish having a theological discussion:

“Do you think God exists?”

“Of course God exists! Who do you think changes the water?”

There may very well be a non-supernatural explanation for the origin of the universe and for life. We just can’t see it from here.

I heard a similar analogy that was good…

Fish and other animals that live under the water live in their own little world, they have no knowledge about the very complex world that exists outside the water, I think the world we live in is similar, there is likely a MUCH larger reality that we are just not able to see or comprehend.

Plus, even what we know about God thru the bible is only a small piece of a much larger puzzle, we are only given the knowledge we need in life, probably for good reason.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Yet you understand enough about his works to spend most of one post arguing against his position.

You have an Internet connection and there is more information and discussions about Aquinas out there that is totally free that you could read in a lifetime. And that’s actually the amount of time you have available - a lifetime.

You say you have no time, yet you spend hours thinking about and writing nearly a thousand posts.

Most of what Aquinas has written is available for download from Amazon. The Kindle app is free and the books are about 12 bucks. That’s about the cost of three coffees in Japan.

Good point!
There’s a ton of free podcasts covering Aquinas’ work available at Apologetics 315
apologetics315.com/2008/03/ultimate-apologetics-mp3-audio-page.html

Bradski:

…By the way, you don’t get any bonus points for believing in God. You can still be a good Christian even if you don’t. Don’t lie or steal, honour your parents, love your neighbour, forgive your enemies, do good works…just live a worthwhile life.

You hear a lot of atheists saying how good it is to be good, and love your neighbor, forgive others, do unto others, obey the ancient commandments because they are ‘good’. etc.
And I like that. But then I have to ask…what exactly is your problem with anything offered in The Gospel of Jesus Christ???

Bradski:

…If you don’t believe and it turns out that you were wrong and He does exist, I’m sure you’ll be rewarded for a life well lived. Kind of a win win situation.

Atheists who live ‘like’ Christians and end up in heaven along with other Christians. Hmmm?
Interesting.

Again, I have to ask…where is the problem with the Christian message if, after choosing to live a ‘good’ life, you found yourself in the next life exactly as is promised in Jesus’ teachings?

 

[NM505StKate]

And even if there were, does that negate the possibility of God? Does it call into question the Bible, or Christian teaching? Because let’s face it, nothing comes from nothing. There had to be SOMETHING that set that event in motion. . That ‘non supernatural event’ would still have to come from something. . .or Some One.

And that being so, God STILL created the universe. . .using methods that themselves utilized whatever material that ‘naturally’ evolved. . .according to His plan.

We don’t know what caused the Big Bang. As I said in our lifetime we may never know what caused it and that is totally cool. Saying “I don’t know” is fine.

@Lion: I chat with a lot of atheists online. I like to see things from all sides. One of the problems they would bring up is while Jesus did say good things he also called a woman a dog (in Matthew), said he was here to divide people and not to unite them.