atheism

[Charles_Darwin]

**Sure it does. Because men could not get by without sin. So someone without sin had to come down to pay for the sins of ours. **

Why? Why not just fogive, how does torture of a innocent help us? What is the point?
**
So because God is merciful and loves us he turned himself into man and paid for all of our sins because we were not capable of it. **

Well he set the rules up in the first place did he not?

**He loved us so much that he died for us. **

He did NOT die? Is he dead? Does he exist no longer?

**To show us how much he loved us. **

Through torture? Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?

**And by this love he took away our sin. **

Not love, torture. There was np need for the torture, he COULD just of forgiven us.

All we must do is repent and believe.

Easy for you to say, my mind just wont accept non answers. I can only conclude is god did make me, he made me for hell.

He made it pretty easy on us. And every sin is forgiven all we have to do is ask. Where did the bible say that God will not forgive our sins. All we have to do is ask and be sorry and sin no more. He is always waiting for us to ask for forgiveness. But if we don’t ask and want to be forgiven why do you blame him?

Im not into blackmail.

Also good question why did Christ have to die.

He didn’t die.

**He didn’t have to you know. He said if this was his kingdom we would not have killed him. **

I didn’t kill anyone
**
We killed Christ. **

I didn’t kill anyone
**
It was our sins and us who killed him. **

Nope, i was not even alive at the time.

If we would have accepted him he would never have had to die.

Nope, i was not even alive at the time.

**But we could not reject sin. **

Nope, i was not even alive at the time.

If so this would have been paradise. So why are you blaming God for the sins of man. All he did was pay the price because we couldn’t.

Well he has not actually done anything, there is still sin. SO he tortured himself for no reason, as sin still exists. He also punishs me for crimes I DID NOT commit.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

So just wondering little jr steals, cheats and lies, What exactly is the guidance he is going to get from you? What would you do, and how would you guide him for what he did, and continued to do?

I would have my self tortured then strung up on a cross. Then go into hiding for the rest of his life but get my freinds to tell him i still exist. If he didn’t get better then nothing would fix him.

^^^^^ is that what you class as guidance?

 

[authenticity]

Well I afraid that some christains do think that homosexuality is a mortal sin precisely becasue of what it says in the bible.

I understand that many use religion as a means to control, hate, and oppress others. The truth is that one can use any ideology in the same way, God or no God. From my perspective, that is what an atheist sounds like towards religious people. He can call religious people ignorant, irrational, and infantile justified on religious people being judgmental, elitist, and zealous; even though the atheist is playing the same game… maybe this is just human nature.

We want morality where no one is wrong. If someone is wrong, they might feel bad and that wouldn’t be very loving. So we shift morality to what we prefer based on our current understanding. Then we blame each other and God when there are consequences, instead of looking at ourselves. Perhaps our morality should be an answer to the example of human nature I just mentioned. Love according to forgiveness, not sentimentalism, and justice according to law, not vengeance.

I agree with most of the 2nd section. I will teach them to think for themselves and will not label them as christian or part of any other religion until they are old enough to decide by themselves. I am glad we agree on that. They will know there as consequences for their actions, but those consequences will not be from any god.

I don’t have a problem with teaching my children what I believe, but I also teach them that they must dig for the truth themselves. Just running through the motions of religion and doing what you are told avoids the existence of a living a God, here and now.

 

[steve_b]

Do you not believe that the OT is the word of god? Or do you just tip toe past the murder and repression and you are fine with the rest. If that is the case, then that is where we differ. Either the OT is the word of god or it is not.

true. And yes it is the word of God.
R:

These are not seperate books, the NT is dependant on the OT. I would also not teach the threat of eternal pain and suffering for lack of obedience also.

In this life, some choices bring terrible pain and suffering…true? If someone says don’t put your hand in that fire or you’re going to get burned, what if they are disobedient, ignore the warning and put their hand in the fire anyway? What if they end up igniting themselves all over because they have highly flamable clothing? You manage to put the fire out but not before they are burned over 90% of their body. If they live, they will be disfigured for the rest of their life. Not to mention all the suffering that kind of burn causes. Did I make a threat or did I warn? Is it okay for me to remain quiet knowing the danger in advance and Just let someone find out for themselves the consequences on their own? Of course not. The moral thing to do is let a person know of the dangers they face for the actions they do…in advance. That’s what God does in scripture. He leads into all truth, not destruction… But people make choices whether to listen and obey or disobey.

If everyrthing we do turned out excellent regardless of what we do, that isn’t any reality we are aware of. That’s make believe.

God is real, eternity is real, eternal consequence is real, Heaven and hell are real.

 

[Ronsatron]

I understand that many use religion as a means to control, hate, and oppress others. The truth is that one can use any ideology in the same way, God or no God. From my perspective, that is what an atheist sounds like towards religious people. He can call religious people ignorant, irrational, and infantile justified on religious people being judgmental, elitist, and zealous; even though the atheist is playing the same game… maybe this is just human nature.

We want morality where no one is wrong. If someone is wrong, they might feel bad and that wouldn’t be very loving. So we shift morality to what we prefer based on our current understanding. Then we blame each other and God when there are consequences, instead of looking at ourselves. Perhaps our morality should be an answer to the example of human nature I just mentioned. Love according to forgiveness, not sentimentalism, and justice according to law, not vengeance.

I don’t have a problem with teaching my children what I believe, but I also teach them that they must dig for the truth themselves. Just running through the motions of religion and doing what you are told avoids the existence of a living a God, here and now.

Thoughtful post. People are free to believe what they like, whether others think it is rational or not. I do take issue though when these beliefs result in the discrimination of others. The same applies if religious people are being discriminated against.

 

[rinnie]

Thoughtful post. People are free to believe what they like, whether others think it is rational or not. I do take issue though when these beliefs result in the discrimination of others. The same applies if religious people are being discriminated against.

But the problem here is one thing. God don’t play no games. He said you are either of the light or the darkness. If you are of the darkness you have no light in you.

Yes we are free to believe what we want. It is called free will and that came from God. People can tell me all they want that there is no God. But they also cannot prove it.

The bottom line is this. God said if you want eternal life you must walk in the light. That is accept Jesus Christ. If you reject him you will not have eternal life.

Christians want all to be happy and have eternal life. that is why we are here to show the light. If helping others to see the best we can show them is discrimination of others I am sorry. I do not see it that way.

 

[rinnie]

I would have my self tortured then strung up on a cross. Then go into hiding for the rest of his life but get my freinds to tell him i still exist. If he didn’t get better then nothing would fix him.

^^^^^ is that what you class as guidance?

Absolutely not. But I guess its what you think guidance is.

But who had their self tortured on the Cross. It sure wasn’t Christ. He didn’t do it, you really do need to read the bible. It was the people who were full of sins that killed him.

ANd who is hiding. Jesus Christ is alive and well. He is exposed in the Catholic Church every sunday in the Holy Eucharist. The only thing that is hidden is for those who refuse to see.

 

[Ronsatron]

But the problem here is one thing. God don’t play no games. He said you are either of the light or the darkness. If you are of the darkness you have no light in you.

Yes we are free to believe what we want. It is called free will and that came from God. People can tell me all they want that there is no God. But they also cannot prove it.

The bottom line is this. God said if you want eternal life you must walk in the light. That is accept Jesus Christ. If you reject him you will not have eternal life.

Christians want all to be happy and have eternal life. that is why we are here to show the light. If helping others to see the best we can show them is discrimination of others I am sorry. I do not see it that way.

I agree no one can prove that god does not exist, nor can it be proven that he does. It is good that you try to live a good life because of the rewards you think you will receive (or the punishment if you do not) but pushing these beliefs on others who do not share your faith is were the issue is.
I know you feel that you are doing the moral thing but if others do not share your beliefs then discriminating against them is not right in my opinion. Everyone should be able to live their own life as they wish (within the law of course) and not have their rights taken away.

 

[rinnie]

I agree no one can prove that god does not exist, nor can it be proven that he does. It is good that you try to live a good life because of the rewards you think you will receive (or the punishment if you do not) but pushing these beliefs on others who do not share your faith is were the issue is.
I know you feel that you are doing the moral thing but if others do not share your beliefs then discriminating against them is not right in my opinion. Everyone should be able to live their own life as they wish (within the law of course) and not have their rights taken away.

I don’t think you can push anything on anyone. I agree that we can choose to go by the law of God or the law of man. I don’t think showing people that the law of God can get you eternal life is wrong. But I agree that you cannot push them on anyone. All you can do is your best to answer what they ask and show them as much teaching of Christ as you can.

Like this forum. It is for people who come here to ask questions. We do the best we can to answer them to show them the truth as God taught it and the Church taught it to us.

But I agree that to go door to door, or go to an athiest forum and push our views on them would be wrong. Because they didn’t ask and could care less.

But I am confused about discriminating against them, How does a person do that?

 

[Ronsatron]

I don’t think you can push anything on anyone. I agree that we can choose to go by the law of God or the law of man. I don’t think showing people that the law of God can get you eternal life is wrong. But I agree that you cannot push them on anyone. All you can do is your best to answer what they ask and show them as much teaching of Christ as you can.

Like this forum. It is for people who come here to ask questions. We do the best we can to answer them to show them the truth as God taught it and the Church taught it to us.

But I agree that to go door to door, or go to an athiest forum and push our views on them would be wrong. Because they didn’t ask and could care less.

But I am confused about discriminating against them, How does a person do that?

Well said.
You can discriminate against them by not treating them the same as everyone else, and give them the same rights. You may not advocate discriminating against homosexuals by saying the should not marry (I do not your stance on this) but others do based on their beliefs. I would class this as discrimination.

 

[rinnie]

Well said.
You can discriminate against them by not treating them the same as everyone else, and give them the same rights. You may not advocate discriminating against homosexuals by saying the should not marry (I do not your stance on this) but others do based on their beliefs. I would class this as discrimination.

Well here is how I see it. The way you put it, if I am correct is. that If I obey the word of God and do not agree with mortal sin and stand up for my right to say that according to the gospel and the word of God it is wrong for gays to marry I am in this class of discrimination.

But if I got against the word of God and say it is fine then I discriminate against the word of God.

Now I have to make a choice do I not. To choose the word of God or go against the word of God. Now we have a right to vote whatever we choose. Now how can I vote or express my view without according to you be discriminating against homosexuals. If I say yes they can get married I discriminate against God. If I say no I discriminate against gays. So what I am supposed to do. Nothing at all? Then how do laws get passed?

Also if you would do this for me, Read post 380. Could I have your honest opinion on the responses I got, Thanks R,

 

[rinnie]

Tell me charles what Crime do you feel God is making you pay for that you did not commit?

 

[Ronsatron]

Well here is how I see it. The way you put it, if I am correct is. that If I obey the word of God and do not agree with mortal sin and stand up for my right to say that according to the gospel and the word of God it is wrong for gays to marry I am in this class of discrimination.

But if I got against the word of God and say it is fine then I discriminate against the word of God.

Now I have to make a choice do I not. To choose the word of God or go against the word of God. Now we have a right to vote whatever we choose. Now how can I vote or express my view without according to you be discriminating against homosexuals. If I say yes they can get married I discriminate against God. If I say no I discriminate against gays. So what I am supposed to do. Nothing at all? Then how do laws get passed?

Also if you would do this for me, Read post 380. Could I have your honest opinion on the responses I got, Thanks R,

It is impossible for me to understand fully your dilema as I do not have your faith, but from what you say it is a difficult choice. Laws are complicated but using faith to make laws that discriminate against people because of their sexuality (which I think is wrong in itself) can get very messy.
Where is the line drawn? Does then every religion have this right? Lets say in 20 years from now Muslims make up 95% of America, would you also accept that they should impose Sharia law because it is based on their faith? I would imagine no, because you do not want to abide by the laws of another faith.

Regarding post 380, they were definately short and to the point. Alot had been passed back and forth up to that point, and I think this shows a bit of frustration. I cannot really disagree with all the points made. Would I have made them differently? Maybe.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Absolutely not. But I guess its what you think guidance is.

Well i would suggest that there are better ways god could of handled the whole sin issue. god knew that judas was going to betray him. Sp he knew is was all going to happen. IMO with god knowing that it would pan out the way it did, he could have decided to handle situation with a little more skill.

But who had their self tortured on the Cross. It sure wasn’t Christ. He didn’t do it, you really do need to read the bible. It was the people who were full of sins that killed him.

HE DID **NOT **DIE!!!

ANd who is hiding. Jesus Christ is alive and well. He is exposed in the Catholic Church every sunday in the Holy Eucharist. The only thing that is hidden is for those who refuse to see.

Well he doing a good job of making EVERYTHING look exactly they way it would if he did not exist.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Tell me charles what Crime do you feel God is making you pay for that you did not commit?

Well in his mind i am BORN with sin. He doesn’t even wait till i am capable of making my own decisions before he labels me a sinner. That is discrimination of the HIGHEST order.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

YOU STILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL have not answer my question…

Why could god not forgive us with out the need to torture???

 

[josie_L]

Well if you believe that, you can’t believe not killing is a moral absolute, for there are exceptions to the rule.

Killing/murder is a moral absolute. In the Bible the commandment is “thou shalt not murder”, therefore there are no exceptions to the rule as capital punishment is not regarded as murder.

 

[rinnie]

YOU STILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL have not answer my question…

Why could god not forgive us with out the need to torture???

Charles wake up smell the coffee. He does not torture us. You go, you confess your sin, you quit the sin you are forgiven. Its as simple as that. I have told you time after time but you somehow refuse to listen.

No physical pain, Its over. He took it away. He made it real easy now. Its not torture to admit you are sorry and have done wrong. Its actually a relief to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. It takes away the burden that is carried with sin. Trust me confession don’t torture you.

 

[rinnie]

Well in his mind i am BORN with sin. He doesn’t even wait till i am capable of making my own decisions before he labels me a sinner. That is discrimination of the HIGHEST order.

But by baptism its taken away. Right off the bat. then you are on your own. Trust me. Baptsim takes it away. Then you label youself a sinner on your own by your own sins.

News flash Charles. He fixed it. Baptism. Its taken away. The minute you are born you can be baptised.

 

[rinnie]

Absolutely not. But I guess its what you think guidance is.

Well i would suggest that there are better ways god could of handled the whole sin issue. god knew that judas was going to betray him. Sp he knew is was all going to happen. IMO with god knowing that it would pan out the way it did, he could have decided to handle situation with a little more skill.

But who had their self tortured on the Cross. It sure wasn’t Christ. He didn’t do it, you really do need to read the bible. It was the people who were full of sins that killed him.

HE DID **NOT **DIE!!!

ANd who is hiding. Jesus Christ is alive and well. He is exposed in the Catholic Church every sunday in the Holy Eucharist. The only thing that is hidden is for those who refuse to see.

Well he doing a good job of making EVERYTHING look exactly they way it would if he did not exist.

Sorry charles he did die. He was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again according to scriptures. OT Charles read it. It foretells the whole thing.