atheism

[EvolvedAtheist]

If you cannot see that by getting hung on the cross and beaten and spit on a crucifed on the cross and suffering the way Christ did on the cross did not sacrifice anything, you are correct then, you will never see it.

I can see the suffering, where is the sacrifice?

If you are a billionare and sleep on the street for a night you would understand how lucky you are to have what you have. I would call that a sacrafice,

No, that is a learning experience.

and would hope that the one night would be enough to show him how many people he can save from that horrible night. I would hope it would be one he would never forget. So yes I can see the good in it.

All depends on what he does with the experience.
**
What you seem to forget it is by his death and ressurrection that he saved us all from sin, and because of that death we all get to go to paradise. It if because of his death that we are forgiven. IT is by his death that he took on the sins of the world and saved us all. SO we are forgiven.**

This is what i mean, why does god need the punishment, the pain, the killing? Why could it just not forgive? Why does killing need to be involved?

Well said.

Why the sacrifice indeed?

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

What you’ve mentioned above is not a redefinition of marriage like it would be if we allowed gays to marry (marriage was for almost all of human history a contract between man and woman by which they could procreate and protect their offspring).

So it isn’t the redefining of marriage that you have a problem with, it is only THIS incarnation of redefinition.

It is only when gays are involved that you mind. You didn’t mind when they redefined it to allow blacks to marry whites, you didn’t mind when dowries were no longer required, you didn’t mind it when women were given rights in marriage that they had been denied, you only mind it when it involved a group that you don’t like.

Nice.

What exactly is your problem with it? Where is the harm in letting people love and share the rights that everyone takes for granted while in a moral, loyal and monogomous relationship?

Besides, if you dont’ like gay marriage, don’t marry a gay.

Peace

 

[StillWondering]

this is just a classic red herring … the type of argument you use when your position is irrational.

You’re literally saying we should oppress one group of law abiding consenting adults because an entirely separate group of people may demand the right to engage in a currently criminalized practice?

I can’t speculate on how other groups might use a precedent like gay marriage to bolster their cause, nor is it relevant.

Imagine if your religion were banned and you were arguing in favor of legalizing its practice. Now also imagine there are other religions out there who engage in all sorts of bizarre and harmful practices (like drug use, sex with minors, etc.). I’m the guy fighting to retain the status quo and I say if we legalize Catholicism then these bizarre cults will use that precedent to try and argue for legalization of their religion (and legalization of practices like drug use and sex with minors within the context of their religious worship). I’m able to rile the majority into a frenzy, convincing them if we legalize the Christian religion their children will become the target of sexual predators who will abuse them in horrific ways.

Try and imagine that world … then imagine how you would feel?

Sounds a lot like how China treats Catholicism. I hope you know some of the things the government and a large portion of the people do. I am not being racists or anti-Chinese. I have a great deal of respect and love for this heritage.

At the same time the government of this country does a great deal of very bad things and at the same time are very cruel to Catholics. It has improved over the last 10 years but being less oppressed, less sudden disappearances of people, less enslavement, less false trials, and less desecration is still bad when all these things are present in large measure.

Do you see Catholics doing evil things? You would claim the child molestation issue. Well I think the numbers come out to about 5%, which seems to be about the same in Protestant communities as well as other religious communities. More so in non-religious communities and greatly more so in cultist communities. Seems like it is not a “Catholic” thing. What about people claiming millions are dying because they cannot use contraception. This is faulty too because they are dying to the other sinful behaviors that are already present. Catholics are the worlds greatest food, aid, and hospital charity service out there. We are not causing this problem, we are at the frontlines working to else, resolve, and eliminate this problem.

What else can you cite. Are Catholics and Catholicism evil that you use that example above?

 

[Charles_Darwin]

These other countries have little effect on the world in comparison to America.

Ah ok, so America’s definition of marriage is what matters.

 

[gearhead]

Do you see Catholics doing evil things? You would claim the child molestation issue. Well I think the numbers come out to about 5%, which seems to be about the same in Protestant communities as well as other religious communities. More so in non-religious communities and greatly more so in cultist communities. Seems like it is not a “Catholic” thing.

But that’s the thing: if you open the door for religion to let in Catholicism, how do you close it to keep out “undesirable” religions? That’s what turning the “slippery slope” argument around is all about. The issue isn’t with what you’d do; the issue’s with what someone else would do if we let you do what you want.

And as for the references to drugs, drug use is an integral part of worship and practice in some religions; Rastafarianism is well-known for its sacramental use of marijuana and some Native American religions use peyote or other hallucinogens (fun fact: peyote is legal in Canada, and this is specifically because of Native religious use).

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

Sounds a lot like how China treats Catholicism. I hope you know some of the things the government and a large portion of the people do. I am not being racists or anti-Chinese. I have a great deal of respect and love for this heritage.

At the same time the government of this country does a great deal of very bad things and at the same time are very cruel to Catholics. It has improved over the last 10 years but being less oppressed, less sudden disappearances of people, less enslavement, less false trials, and less desecration is still bad when all these things are present in large measure.

Do you see Catholics doing evil things? You would claim the child molestation issue. Well I think the numbers come out to about 5%, which seems to be about the same in Protestant communities as well as other religious communities. More so in non-religious communities and greatly more so in cultist communities. Seems like it is not a “Catholic” thing. What about people claiming millions are dying because they cannot use contraception. This is faulty too because they are dying to the other sinful behaviors that are already present. Catholics are the worlds greatest food, aid, and hospital charity service out there. We are not causing this problem, we are at the frontlines working to else, resolve, and eliminate this problem.

What else can you cite. Are Catholics and Catholicism evil that you use that example above?

It isn’t the molestation numbers that are the evil of the churh because as you say, they are about the same as other organisations. It is the fact that the church hides them away instead of opening them up to prosecution.

Another evil?

How about condemning a people to death by saying that death from Aids is better than using condoms? The Pope fully supports this. He teaches that it is more moral to die then to use a condom. Millions die from this teaching. How about the children who have nightmares of hell because they are inducted into a belief that is too involved for them to make a decision of their own? How about leading the charge in invading the bedrooms of homosexuals and denying them rights?

As far as it goes, Catholics are certainly less harmful than other religions, but the following of unthinking dogma of any kind does no one any good.

Peace

 

[StillWondering]

So it isn’t the redefining of marriage that you have a problem with, it is only THIS incarnation of redefinition.

It is only when gays are involved that you mind. You didn’t mind when they redefined it to allow blacks to marry whites, you didn’t mind when dowries were no longer required, you didn’t mind it when women were given rights in marriage that they had been denied, you only mind it when it involved a group that you don’t like.

Nice.

What exactly is your problem with it? Where is the harm in letting people love and share the rights that everyone takes for granted while in a moral, loyal and monogomous relationship?

Besides, if you dont’ like gay marriage, don’t marry a gay.

Peace

If you mind the other things you mentioned, wouldn’t we be evil? The bottom line is that you are claiming man-man sexual relationships and woman-woman sexual relationships are in accordance with the natural law, whether that is God’s law if you have a belief in God or the law of science and physiology if you do not believe in a higher law.

So you claim that we as Catholics are to be denied our right to vote so that you can have it your way. If you really want equality, you cannot deny us the right to vote based on our belief.

Back onto the topic: there are different levels of hurt. If someone says they believe in Christ but do not believe in Catholicism. They are refusing to acknowledged Christs words. If someone says they belief in God but do not believe in a person name Jesus of Nazareth. They do not believe that particular historical documents are true. I have read the articles against his existence as a human, but they lack evidence and references. Basically it comes off as unscientific and opinionated. Do you believe everything you read or hear? If someone says they do not believe in God, then they somehow believe the world came into being with all it’s intricacies and relationships.

Well, it hurts us devout Catholics in various ways. The non-Catholic Christians are still our brethren but they hurt us because they listen to themselves over listening to Christ. The non-Christian theists hurt us because they outright deny Christ and the Holy Spirit, our companions and guilds in life. The atheist, hurts us because they deny all three Persons of the Trinity exists in any way meanwhile God as all three Persons gave us life, freedom, love, and opportunity for salvation.

The tread began as how hurt we fell. It is not an attack, but in return we receive attacks. Catholics all called to love all, even our enemies, but we are not called to be punching bags. We are called to be walls! We are here to defend God not because he needs us to, but because we love him. There is no greater love then to sacrifice yourself for your love. Well, others have attacked God enough, we cannot lose any inch against this assault.

 

[StillWondering]

It isn’t the molestation numbers that are the evil of the churh because as you say, they are about the same as other organisations. It is the fact that the church hides them away instead of opening them up to prosecution.

Another evil?

How about condemning a people to death by saying that death from Aids is better than using condoms? The Pope fully supports this. He teaches that it is more moral to die then to use a condom. Millions die from this teaching. How about the children who have nightmares of hell because they are inducted into a belief that is too involved for them to make a decision of their own? How about leading the charge in invading the bedrooms of homosexuals and denying them rights?

As far as it goes, Catholics are certainly less harmful than other religions, but the following of unthinking dogma of any kind does no one any good.

Peace

Firstly, Huh to your “Another evil”. Rephrase please. I do not know what you are refering to.

You are so wrong about what the Pope believes, says or teaches. Go to Africa and talk to the people there. The husbands are promiscuous, come home drunk with alcohol and cheap perform, and then they proceed to force themselves on their wives. You think condoms are going to save them, you have a lot to learn about the world. This same way of thinking is what lets abortion run wild. Unborn are either not really humans or are less important then their mothers. Pfft! This is such a blind view. Sigh. I guess I’ll have to pray for you.

 

[StillWondering]

But that’s the thing: if you open the door for religion to let in Catholicism, how do you close it to keep out “undesirable” religions? That’s what turning the “slippery slope” argument around is all about. The issue isn’t with what you’d do; the issue’s with what someone else would do if we let you do what you want.

And as for the references to drugs, drug use is an integral part of worship and practice in some religions; Rastafarianism is well-known for its sacramental use of marijuana and some Native American religions use peyote or other hallucinogens (fun fact: peyote is legal in Canada, and this is specifically because of Native religious use).

See you’re arguement sounds a lot more logical then the other argument just now. Basically you are willing to share to availability of unrestrained freedom across the board. While another pro-homosexual marriage here says it is unfair to talk about what “others will do”.

First, I want you or the other person to clarify, which one is the truth. That it does not matter what I will do because I will do it in love and kindness, as long as I do not fall (pray that I won’t if you are so willing), or that it does not matter what others may do with this precedence?

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

true. And yes it is the word of God.

In this life, some choices bring terrible pain and suffering…true? If someone says don’t put your hand in that fire or you’re going to get burned, what if they are disobedient, ignore the warning and put their hand in the fire anyway? What if they end up igniting themselves all over because they have highly flamable clothing? You manage to put the fire out but not before they are burned over 90% of their body. If they live, they will be disfigured for the rest of their life. Not to mention all the suffering that kind of burn causes. Did I make a threat or did I warn? Is it okay for me to remain quiet knowing the danger in advance and Just let someone find out for themselves the consequences on their own? Of course not. The moral thing to do is let a person know of the dangers they face for the actions they do…in advance. That’s what God does in scripture. He leads into all truth, not destruction… But people make choices whether to listen and obey or disobey.

If everyrthing we do turned out excellent regardless of what we do, that isn’t any reality we are aware of. That’s make believe.

God is real, eternity is real, eternal consequence is real, Heaven and hell are real.

So if you believe that the OT is the word of god, then why aren’t you out killing atheists, adulterers, endorsing rape for warring victors, owning slaves, roasting and eating human feces before a conquest, allowing your daughters to be sold to the sex trade and killing those who blaspheme?

These things (and much more bizzare things) are all condoned and commanded in the OT (some in the new as well) so why not?

Peace

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

See you’re arguement sounds a lot more logical then the other argument just now. Basically you are willing to share to availability of unrestrained freedom across the board. While another pro-homosexual marriage here says it is unfair to talk about what “others will do”.

First, I want you or the other person to clarify, which one is the truth. That it does not matter what I will do because I will do it in love and kindness, as long as I do not fall (pray that I won’t if you are so willing), or that it does not matter what others may do with this precedence?

What does it matter to you if what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes? How does it change your marriage to have two loving people continue their relationship within the confines of the institution of marriage. No one says that CHURCHES have to marry gay people, only that they be allowed to BE married. They can get married by the state or city.

Why is god so involved in the sex lives of people?

peace

 

[StillWondering]

Oy, so much bickering!

Why so much pride!
Which reminds me…

The reason the Egyptians didn’t record the Exodus of the Hebrew people (and many more humiliations in Egyptian history) is because they were a proud people.

This isn’t my expert opinion. My grandfather just so happens to be an Egyptologist(and an atheist by the way, so don’t claim he is biased toward the Bible).

…

Quoted only the first part, but I respect your whole statement. This sounds a lot like what North Korea does in terms of documentation and publications. There are so many lies they record down. Ask any North Korean refugee. I’m not one myself, I’m a Vietnamese refugee and American Citizen. So I know a weaker version of this. My grandmother is part Chinese and I’m currently renting from a Chinese couple that left their country because of all the harm that country commits. And they are non-believes, in fact they did not even know Catholicism was a religion till they met me. It is advertised is very ugly terms by the government.

 

[StillWondering]

What does it matter to you if what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes? How does it change your marriage to have two loving people continue their relationship within the confines of the institution of marriage. No one says that CHURCHES have to marry gay people, only that they be allowed to BE married. They can get married by the state or city.

Why is god so involved in the sex lives of people?

peace

The Church while it is in America (in the forms of physical churches and it’s related hospitals and schools) will have their rights diminished because of this. Yeah, you can say no the Church will have it’s freedom. I wish, you should know as well as I this is not going to be the case. If I worked in a Catholic hospital I would have to say “Your husband” to someone else while I am in your service. I cannot deny you service both because a Catholic cannot turn away a patient without just cause such as it is harmful to other patients or staffs, and because we are legally bound to. The legal bounds while it has more affects in this world has less of a bound then the Catholic ones on our souls. Well, as a Catholic we can not say that unless we commit scandal. If this becomes common knowledge that is one thing. But if it is not, for sure it will be scandal. Catholic scandal is similar to the secular scandal: Scandal is when you do or do not do something that can led another person to misunderstand your beliefs and the beliefs of the Catholic Church. This is a moral sin for us.

There is a small example. There are bigger things at stake for Catholics. But you asked for an example and I wanted to give an easy one. Hopefully I’m correct. If anyone has a law degree, I’ll gladly listen.

I’ll try to find more evidence, but since I just joined this conversation I know others will have more info. But there are a lot of sides to this issue for us–I hope you can understand. One thing I would like to add is that a good Catholic may not like everything, but we need to believe in the dogmas and doctrines of the Church. However, we cannot be against it in mind or heart for long because a Catholic is obligated to learn why. And the Church has never failed to think about issues critically and on all sides to give a wonderful and clear answer. I know coming from a Catholic this may sound biased. But remember there are many anti-Catholics and non-Catholics that after learning what the Church teaches with an open mind (it does not even have to be fully open) they can see the logic and truth. I’m very glad for some of my friends you open up to the Church teachings. And they held very similar views to other here at one point. I hope I can share with you well over time.

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

Firstly, Huh to your “Another evil”. Rephrase please. I do not know what you are refering to.

You are so wrong about what the Pope believes, says or teaches. Go to Africa and talk to the people there. The husbands are promiscuous, come home drunk with alcohol and cheap perform, and then they proceed to force themselves on their wives. You think condoms are going to save them, you have a lot to learn about the world. This same way of thinking is what lets abortion run wild. Unborn are either not really humans or are less important then their mothers. Pfft! This is such a blind view. Sigh. I guess I’ll have to pray for you.

I have not been rude, I have not been insulting, I have not derided you (or anyone) in any way. So I guess I would ask you why you feel the need to be so arrogant in your condescending tone. “you have a lot to learn about the world” “Blind world view” “I’ll have to pray for you”

Secondly the post I was answering asked for another evil to be exampled. I gave a few.

Sounds like your view on african deaths is a very limited one. 4400 people a day die beacuse of cheating husbands??? Where is your evidence?

If what you say is true, then those husbands are cheating with other women, AND not wearing condoms so that is why they get infected. So even if what you say is true, condoms would certainly help the issue.

What does condoms saving lives have anything to do with abortion? (which I am not sure about either way)

Answer? NOTHING. You place that in there to villify me further because your case against me ont he condoms issue was so narrow in scope. I made no comment on abortion and if you can show the link between the two, then I would like to hear it.

You never did answer to the other evils I mentioned.

I would love to continue the conversation without the condescending tone and the pious attempt to look down your nose at me by telling me that you will pray for me as a person who clearly needs it.

How about if you think I am so lost, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, instead of thinking that prayer will help. Explaining, and reasoning with me might do more than putting your hands together and figuring that all is better if you really felt that I was lost.

Answer? You have no intention of praying for my poor lost soul, you just threw that out there to be insulting.

Think that we can start over on a more friendly tone?

Peace (hopefully)

 

[StillWondering]

Oh, and the comment about why is God so involved in people sex’s lives question. Well, why not? God created everything that is good. You probably would agree to this if God does exist in your mind. It would be silly if God did not created sex, something that so many people long for, and is still God.

So if God created sex, would it be weird that God is “so involved” in sex. Sure you can say but God created coffee cups too, why is that not as big a deal. Well, do you care of coffee cups as much as sex with your loved one (given that you are familiar with sex and a loved one)? Obviously there are things that are more important than others.

From what I learned about God, God cares about people a great deal. So much that he died for us despite and because of our sins. Now what else does God cares about so much. Relationships. That’s vital, more than vital if there is such a term of it.

 

[gearhead]

See you’re arguement sounds a lot more logical then the other argument just now. Basically you are willing to share to availability of unrestrained freedom across the board. While another pro-homosexual marriage here says it is unfair to talk about what “others will do”.

Well, it can be fair… if the two things are actually linked. But polygamy and illegal drug use are both criminal acts. It would take much more than legalization of same-sex marriage or enshrinement of freedom of religion (respectively) for these things to happen.

First, I want you or the other person to clarify, which one is the truth. That it does not matter what I will do because I will do it in love and kindness, as long as I do not fall (pray that I won’t if you are so willing), or that it does not matter what others may do with this precedence?

I think both issues are in there: the same-sex marriage debate pulls in things that are directly relevant to same-sex marriage itself (e.g. whether its good or bad for kids, or whether homosexuality should be discouraged, if it can be at all) as well as issues that are peripheral or indirect (e.g. what its effect might be on the legality of polygamy, or what it would mean for opposite-sex marriage).

The slippery slope argument factors into the indirect effects; however, there are some arguments against same-sex marriage (and, for that matter, against the Catholic Church) that address the subject matter directly, rather than its indirect effects.

No one says that CHURCHES have to marry gay people, only that they be allowed to BE married. They can get married by the state or city.

… or in a church of one of the several denominations that support same-sex marriage and offer weddings for same-sex couples. It’s sometimes missed that this isn’t a simple issue of secularism vs. religion. There are churches and religious people on both sides.

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

How will refering to someone as a husband be violating your rights??? You don’t have to agree with that union. No one is forcing you. But the fact is that the term husbnad would be correct. Why would you WANT to deny medical service to someone merely because of their bedroom practices?? As far as what you feel is beneficial to our “souls”, if you are right, then that will be very clear when that couple is judged. You needn’t bother yourself. No one is forcing the church to marry people they don’t want to. You don’t even need to stay quiet. You are allowed to voice your moral opinion, but as far as legal matters go, the law doesn’t care about your moral opinion because we don’t all share your beliefs.

“but we need to believe in the dogmas and doctrines of the Church.”

NO you don’t. You need to THINK about the dogmas of the church and decide for yourselves it they are moral. Otherwise you have fallen victim to blind faith.

“And the Church has never failed to think about issues critically and on all sides to give a wonderful and clear answer.”

I was a catholic for 25 years and they have failed on many occasions to critically think about issues. They only JUSt last year accepted evolution for pities sake. lol

I will admit that catholics are more open minded and progressive than many other religions, but that doesn’t mean that you just blindly believe that those in power in the church say out of authority.

Thank you for your considered tone and patience, I look forward to discussing this with you.

peace

 

[StillWondering]

I have not been rude, I have not been insulting, I have not derided you (or anyone) in any way. So I guess I would ask you why you feel the need to be so arrogant in your condescending tone. “you have a lot to learn about the world” “Blind world view” “I’ll have to pray for you”

Secondly the post I was answering asked for another evil to be exampled. I gave a few.

Sounds like your view on african deaths is a very limited one. 4400 people a day die beacuse of cheating husbands??? Where is your evidence?

If what you say is true, then those husbands are cheating with other women, AND not wearing condoms so that is why they get infected. So even if what you say is true, condoms would certainly help the issue.

What does condoms saving lives have anything to do with abortion? (which I am not sure about either way)

Answer? NOTHING. You place that in there to villify me further because your case against me ont he condoms issue was so narrow in scope. I made no comment on abortion and if you can show the link between the two, then I would like to hear it.

You never did answer to the other evils I mentioned.

I would love to continue the conversation without the condescending tone and the pious attempt to look down your nose at me by telling me that you will pray for me as a person who clearly needs it.

How about if you think I am so lost, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, instead of thinking that prayer will help. Explaining, and reasoning with me might do more than putting your hands together and figuring that all is better if you really felt that I was lost.

Answer? You have no intention of praying for my poor lost soul, you just threw that out there to be insulting.

Think that we can start over on a more friendly tone?

Peace (hopefully)

Hello again. Well. In response, I prayed and am praying to not be arrogent or condesending. I think you misunderstand me in a few ways.

1. The reason I mentioned abortion is because this way of thinking that only looking at it form the outside is what leads humanity down both of this path. I am not villifying you. Did I mentioned you in particular? I said “this” is why. Are you a this? No, so no I was not talking about you believe this. I’m talking about this thinking that you are using is what leads to condoms and abortion and other things too.
2. When I say I pray for you, it is not condescending. I do believe that you are not seeing it. This is directly form what you said the Pope believes. You have it wrong. If you can ask the pope he will explain it to you. But listening to the media is not good enough. Maybe you read his encyclicals? If you did and you still feel this way, we should talk in private or you can talk with a Catholic priest. By stating that you do not know what you are talking about, am I being condescending? If so, we have a problem. If you said I do not know about Syrian language but I have a friend who speaks it and I think it’s a beautiful language, would that be condescending? If it is, than there is nothing I can say besides you are right and not be arrogant.
3. I already said I need you to rephrase. How could I answer a question that I cannot understand. So what is it you want me to describe, why is gay marriage a problem to the Catholic faith?
4. And last, I did pray for you just now. I was still typing other answers. I guess I could have stopped earlier and prayed. So I am sorry and had to pray for myself too. But yes I prayed for you not as a “poor lost soul” but for you to understand what the Pope really teaches. When I first heard it on the news, I was surprised and shocked too. But luckily I trust the Church to not be so blind and arrogant so I did my own research and do not feel the pope is stupid. In fact, he is so wise. I learned a great deal in that investigation.
5. Another thing I prayed for you for is that you can come to understand what Catholicism really is. It is a life, a hope, a religion, a home, a knowledge, a learning, a daily/weekly/yearly/ process. I also prayed that you will come to know God and can help others once you do.

 

[gearhead]

How will refering to someone as a husband be violating your rights???

Giving him the right to access his partner’s bank account when he’s unconscious in the hospital could be seen as denying them the right to a cheap house through a foreclosure auction.

 

[StillWondering]

How will refering to someone as a husband be violating your rights??? You don’t have to agree with that union. No one is forcing you. But the fact is that the term husbnad would be correct. Why would you WANT to deny medical service to someone merely because of their bedroom practices?? As far as what you feel is beneficial to our “souls”, if you are right, then that will be very clear when that couple is judged. You needn’t bother yourself. No one is forcing the church to marry people they don’t want to. You don’t even need to stay quiet. You are allowed to voice your moral opinion, but as far as legal matters go, the law doesn’t care about your moral opinion because we don’t all share your beliefs.

I stayed what scandal is. People called the pope a Nazi because they misunderstood what his life was like. He was forced to serve in the military. Forced to. Just like I would be force to call John and Jimmy husbands even if my kids are listening to me. I would be teaching them the wrong things. That is Scandal. It is a serious sin. And you would be forcing me to commit this sin without even knowing it.

I never want to deny them medical coverage. I would love to help them as individuals. Or as two friends. I cannot help them as two family members or two spouse.

“but we need to believe in the dogmas and doctrines of the Church.”

NO you don’t. You need to THINK about the dogmas of the church and decide for yourselves it they are moral. Otherwise you have fallen victim to blind faith.

This is your definition of how things should work. If you read what I wrote. We need to investigate for ourselves. It is a sin to have blind faith as well. Living as a Catholic is **not **easy. We are called to learn. Please, understand this. However, the Church has fully logic behind it. It is not blind teaching. So those that do not believe that wishes to be Catholic are *obligated * to find out the truth.

“And the Church has never failed to think about issues critically and on all sides to give a wonderful and clear answer.”

I was a catholic for 25 years and they have failed on many occasions to critically think about issues. They only JUSt last year accepted evolution for pities sake. lol

I think you do not understand what the Church teaches. You may call me arrogant. But I do not understand everything. Note my name, I am in the process of learning. Being a Catholic means to continue to learn. Some learn spiritually, some learn intellectually, some learn in other ways and in a combination of ways. But being a Catholic is not a NAME! It is a way of life, a being, a path, and many other descriptions. I personally still feel evolution is a weak theory despite the links I was given form another thread. It’s very interesting, but it is not like math or nuclear physics for me. Well, either way it does not apply to the Church. The Church feels that evolution is a scientific question and so there’s no need to deny or accept it. Even now the Church does not require anyone to accept or deny it. It’s all up to us to think how we wish about this scientific endeavor. So you said the Church just accepted it last year is not correct. Where are you getting your news from? I would like to check on it.

Also, as a Catholic, did you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Did you ask Catholic scientists or doctors about the things you see the Church fails at understanding?

I will admit that catholics are more open minded and progressive than many other religions, but that doesn’t mean that you just blindly believe that those in power in the church say out of authority.

Thank you for your considered tone and patience, I look forward to discussing this with you.

peace

Thank you as well for having a full dialogue with me. You know as well as I do how awful it is to just be in a argument without meaning–where both sides are just fighting. So please help me to stay open and stay open yourself.

Well, the Church is really big. But there are surveys and reports out there that suggests only a third of Catholics in name are Catholics in belief and action. And even among these, there are people that deliberately put a blind eye or cover their ears when the Church teaches. Well, it’s okay to disagree and investigate. It is a sin to disagree and claim “well, I do nto feel that is right” or “my logic says that is wrong even without having to look at the Church’s evidence”. There are so many brilliant Catholics minds out there right now and in the past. I’m sure someone out there is smart enough to answer your questions or your disagreements fully. I do not claim to be one of them, but I do want to share with you what I understand.