I meant to quote from juris prudens who flat out stated they cant make it. My apologiseThat might be the most insulting thing someone has ever said to me. I have posted twice in this thread and never said that I think all atheists are going to hell. I asked for a source as to when Pope Francis said that atheists can go to heaven, noted that redemption does not equal personal salvation in Catholic theology, and then also noted that God can save whomever He wants because He is God. Please do not presume to put words into my mouth and paint be as an atheist-condemning hate-monger.
Wrong. Please refer to the pope, infalliable and head of the church.No, it is not necessary to believe in God to go to Heaven. It is extremely difficult, but it is not impossible.
No harm done, forgive my vehement response.I meant to quote from juris prudens who flat out stated they cant make it. My apologise
Even if HH Pope Francis said it, I don’t think that is how Papal Infallibility works.Wrong. Please refer to the pope, infalliable and head of the church.
Hmm I remember before Francis became pope I came on these threads to debate this, and they would give me quotes from the current pope, and i tried to disagree with the substance, and they claimed infallability, and he is the final say on all church law. Now i when I come here and argue Pope Francis’s more progressive ideas I get met with that he is not the real boss, or he cant change church law, or he is not infalliable. I don’t understand.No harm done, forgive my vehement response.
Even if HH Pope Francis said it, I don’t think that is how Papal Infallibility works.
Thank you for bringing reason.I’m pretty sure you are incorrect. It’s not essential.
.
Such a statement seems to me inconsistent with your own church’s teaching on the matter and furthermore, representative of a very common mistake that people get to heaven for being “good people.” The main problem with this is that none of those good people exist. Oh sure, there are “good people” in the sense that there are morally more upright people than you and me (even, doubtless, many atheists), but, as the Bible notes “**all **have sinned and fallen short,” not “some people are just so awesome they can get into heaven anyway”.Juris, You’re telling me Jesus told us the parabal of the Good Samaritan for no reason? This is exactaly of what he was afriad of. In America we look down on Atheists, and other religions, but they are good people as well.
Are you honestly telling me that in my above example the Catholics would go to heaven for beileving in God, and the atheists would go to hell? Have you heard the message “whatever you do for the least my people you have done for me” If an atheist is compassionate to the poor and commits good works then he was kind and gracious to jesus by feeding, clothing, and nourishing him and would be let in.
Yes I would like a souce on this as well. It defies everything I thought Catholicism stood for,No, it is not necessary to believe in God to go to Heaven. It is extremely difficult, but it is not impossible.
I would like you to directly respond to my exampleSuch a statement seems to me inconsistent with your own church’s teaching on the matter and furthermore, representative of a very common mistake that people get to heaven for being “good people.” The main problem with this is that none of those good people exist. Oh sure, there are “good people” in the sense that there are morally more upright people than you and me (even, doubtless, many atheists), but, as the Bible notes “**all **have sinned and fallen short,” not “some people are just so awesome they can get into heaven anyway”.
To suggest that people can get into heaven by being good is like suggesting that someone can get out of jail by following the law more than all the other criminals who also deserve jail time – that’s not how it works, it is not what the Bible preaches.
As an illustration, imagine that you travel to a world where murder is a common, every-day sort of occurrence. Everyone has done it once or twice at least, and some people have done it a lot of times. Regardless, everyone is guilty of murder. Now, when you speak to these people, you begin to realize that, like us, they consider some people in that world more morally upright than others – after all, some people killed only one or two people, while others are chronical serial murders. When you ask them why they deserve to go to heaven, they reply “Well, I’m a good person – I’m not a serial killer or a rapist or a mass murder of hundreds of people. I’m a fairly swell person to be around.” You see the problem immediately, don’t you? That person is judging themselves based on how good the people around them are. Compared to the people around them, they are veritable saints. But as we well know, this doesn’t make them not evil – nothing that they do, no good deeds, no resisting the temptation to murder other people, could make up for the fact that they are inextricably evil and worthy of punishment.
The same is true for God’s perception of humankind. God, is quite literally, The Good itself. He is the moral standard by which all things are judged. From His vantage point, we are all sinful, selfish, terrible beings with very little (if any) real good inside us. He can’t just turn to us and say “Oh, you made the 90th percentile in your world, you pass and go to heaven.” That’s not at all how it works – you’ve already failed the test; you’ve already committed the worst crime imaginable – rejecting God – quite literally, rejecting goodness itself.
So the atheist can’t get off just by being a good person. That is factually wrong from a Christian theistic perspective.
And you’re also in assuming atheism is a choice. God has a plan for all of us and its not up to us to condem those who try, but cant believe. Or just don’t believe but still lead a good life. Tommorrow you could not decide not to believe in God. You could live your life contrary to Jesus’s teaching, but you would still believe.Such a statement seems to me inconsistent with your own church’s teaching on the matter and furthermore, representative of a very common mistake that people get to heaven for being “good people.” The main problem with this is that none of those good people exist. Oh sure, there are “good people” in the sense that there are morally more upright people than you and me (even, doubtless, many atheists), but, as the Bible notes “**all **have sinned and fallen short,” not “some people are just so awesome they can get into heaven anyway”.
To suggest that people can get into heaven by being good is like suggesting that someone can get out of jail by following the law more than all the other criminals who also deserve jail time – that’s not how it works, it is not what the Bible preaches.
As an illustration, imagine that you travel to a world where murder is a common, every-day sort of occurrence. Everyone has done it once or twice at least, and some people have done it a lot of times. Regardless, everyone is guilty of murder. Now, when you speak to these people, you begin to realize that, like us, they consider some people in that world more morally upright than others – after all, some people killed only one or two people, while others are chronical serial murders. When you ask them why they deserve to go to heaven, they reply “Well, I’m a good person – I’m not a serial killer or a rapist or a mass murder of hundreds of people. I’m a fairly swell person to be around.” You see the problem immediately, don’t you? That person is judging themselves based on how good the people around them are. Compared to the people around them, they are veritable saints. But as we well know, this doesn’t make them not evil – nothing that they do, no good deeds, no resisting the temptation to murder other people, could make up for the fact that they are inextricably evil and worthy of punishment.
The same is true for God’s perception of humankind. God, is quite literally, The Good itself. He is the moral standard by which all things are judged. From His vantage point, we are all sinful, selfish, terrible beings with very little (if any) real good inside us. He can’t just turn to us and say “Oh, you made the 90th percentile in your world, you pass and go to heaven.” That’s not at all how it works – you’ve already failed the test; you’ve already committed the worst crime imaginable – rejecting God – quite literally, rejecting goodness itself.
So the atheist can’t get off just by being a good person. That is factually wrong from a Christian theistic perspective.
A pope may give his opinion on something, but unless he makes an official infallible pronouncement (which has only happened twice in the history of the Church), his words are still opinions and not official Church doctrine.Hmm I remember before Francis became pope I came on these threads to debate this, and they would give me quotes from the current pope, and i tried to disagree with the substance, and they claimed infallability, and he is the final say on all church law. Now i when I come here and argue Pope Francis’s more progressive ideas I get met with that he is not the real boss, or he cant change church law, or he is not infalliable. I don’t understand.
How did I contradict the Holy Father? I did not say it was impossible for atheists to go to Heaven.Wrong. Please refer to the pope, infalliable and head of the church.
“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another in heaven.”How did I contradict the Holy Father? I did not say it was impossible for atheists to go to Heaven.
When did I say that the Catholics in question were in the right? I was merely pointing out that the entire point of Jesus Christ was to provide a sacrifice that could redeem fallen man, because good works, compassion, and charity, in and of themselves, were not enough. There is nothing we to do to earn our salvation by doing enough good deeds. No Catholic or Atheist can do that, as I clearly demonstrated and as the Bible and your own Church teaches. You have completely misunderstood the fundamental doctrine of Christianity. Your statement is quite literally just as wrong as that of certain protestants who proclaim that “Faith means you don’t have to do any good deeds.” It is completely ignorant of the entire foundation of theology proclaimed by Jesus (not to mention Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, and basically any other trained theologian who was not a heretic). So your statement about Faith is just wrong.I would like you to directly respond to my example
Think about it this way. If 10 Catholics walk past a dying man in the streets with their noses in the air basking in self rightouesness and let him die. There excuse? we already believe in God, we automatically get into heaven. Some other responses are we dont take care of this scum.
An Atheist feeds the man and takes him to a doctor and pays for his medical bills, and helps him get a job. His response: It was the right thing to do.
Who do you think Jesus rewarded more?
Faith is nice, but Jesus made it clear good works, compassion, and charity are the most important factors for Salvation. Remember Jesus died for all of our sins, not just Catholics.
Who is more likely to reach heaven?
So note: So to be saved, Atheists would have to be A) Ignorant of the true teachings of God (unlikely in this modern age but not implausible), B) Honestly seeking God (again, not really representative of many atheists), and C) moved by the Grace of God, which would produce in them good works. You will note that nowhere does it say that they can just be saved by *just *doing good works; works are an outflow of salvation, an integral part of the process. Like products in a chemical reaction, if the reaction is taking place, they will be there (because no one who is genuinely drawing closer to the ultimate Good could NOT start acting in this way). Nevertheless, they are not in and of themselves sufficient conditions, as your own catechism shows (many good works are done simply out of habit, or socially conditioning, or pride, or desire to be seen as good, and do not honestly have that flow of goodness that proceeds from intimate knowledge of God).Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
An atheist may go to Heaven if he is inculpably ignorant, leads an innocent life according to his conscience (does good), and was baptized. Since the atheist has no faith, his good works is the one thing that a Catholic & atheist have in common (meet at). Being inculpably ignorant and leading an innocent life as an atheist is a phenomenal task.“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another in heaven.”
Sounds like as long as an atheist does good hes good to go
What do you mean by inculpably ignorant though? What if a person knows OF the notion of God but genuinely believes in his heart that it is not true? I don’t think this automatically disqualifies someone from Heaven. If a person is an honest good person, has good morals, is a servant to others out of the compassion and kindness of his heart, and genuinely seeks truth, I do believe that person can achieve Heaven… regardless of whether or not he came to the genuine yet conscious conclusion that God is a real thing.An atheist may go to Heaven if he is inculpably ignorant, leads an innocent life according to his conscience (does good), and was baptized. Since the atheist has no faith, his good works is the one thing that a Catholic & atheist have in common (meet at). Being inculpably ignorant and leading an innocent life as an atheist is a phenomenal task.
Inculpable ignorance is defined in my dictionary as “the lack of an element of knowledge, which is not to be ascribed to want of due diligence on the part of the subject”. If it is not their fault that they don’t know/believe the truth, they aren’t culpable.What do you mean by inculpably ignorant though? What if a person knows OF the notion of God but genuinely believes in his heart that it is not true? I don’t think this automatically disqualifies someone from Heaven. If a person is an honest good person, has good morals, is a servant to others out of the compassion and kindness of his heart, and genuinely seeks truth, I do believe that person can achieve Heaven… regardless of whether or not he came to the genuine yet conscious conclusion that God is a real thing.
Again, this is making it dependent on how good the atheist is by your own relative “better-than-75-percentile-of-the-evil-people” standards. From God’s perspective, the atheist and the Christian are *both *still ultimately guilty and require something *more *than good works (since those cannot blot out the sin). Namely, they require, as the Catholics call it, Grace. There are plenty of people who appear morally upright by our standards who will not make it into heaven. And plenty of people who have in their lives done morally worse things who will. Read C. S. Lewis *The Great Divorce *if you want a good perspective on why this must be so (told in a fascinating manner I’m sure you’ll enjoy).What do you mean by inculpably ignorant though? What if a person knows OF the notion of God but genuinely believes in his heart that it is not true? I don’t think this automatically disqualifies someone from Heaven. If a person is an honest good person, has good morals, is a servant to others out of the compassion and kindness of his heart, and genuinely seeks truth, I do believe that person can achieve Heaven… regardless of whether or not he came to the genuine yet conscious conclusion that God is a real thing.
When did I say that the Catholics in question were in the right? I was merely pointing out that the entire point of Jesus Christ was to provide a sacrifice that could redeem fallen man, because good works, compassion, and charity, in and of themselves, were not enough. There is nothing we to do to earn our salvation by doing enough good deeds. No Catholic or Atheist can do that, as I clearly demonstrated and as the Bible and your own Church teaches. You have completely misunderstood the fundamental doctrine of Christianity. Your statement is quite literally just as wrong as that of certain protestants who proclaim that “Faith means you don’t have to do any good deeds.” It is completely ignorant of the entire foundation of theology proclaimed by Jesus (not to mention Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, and basically any other trained theologian who was not a heretic). So your statement about Faith is just wrong.
To quote your church’s catechism (clipped from another thread)
I think we have to be a little careful to not over simplify the CCC. It says “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.
Clearly someone who is non Catholic knows that Catholics believe the Church was founded by God through Christ, but they may not believe it actually was.
Ignorance doesn’t just mean a person is completely unfamiliar with the beliefs. It can also mean that they know OF the beliefs, but genuinely don’t think they are true.
I think the main point here is the deliberate and full rejection of God/Jesus. A person cannot necessarily deliberately and fully reject something that they simply do not believe exist in the first place.