atheism

[Catholic_Lady]

Again, this is making it dependent on how good the atheist is by your own relative “better-than-75-percentile-of-the-evil-people” standards. From God’s perspective, the atheist and the Christian are *both *still ultimately guilty and require something *more *than good works (since those cannot blot out the sin). Namely, they require, as the Catholics call it, Grace. There are plenty of people who appear morally upright by our standards who will not make it into heaven. And plenty of people who have in their lives done morally worse things who will. Read C. S. Lewis *The Great Divorce *if you want a good perspective on why this must be so (told in a fascinating manner I’m sure you’ll enjoy).

my bold.

True, but they can receive grace after they die - when they see God for the first time, realize He actually is real, and choose to surrender their already kind (yet imperfect) hearts to Him. Some time in Purgatory would probably be needed as it is for most people, I’m sure.

 

[Catholic_Lady]

Inculpable ignorance is defined in my dictionary as “the lack of an element of knowledge, which is not to be ascribed to want of due diligence on the part of the subject”. If it is not their fault that they don’t know/believe the truth, they aren’t culpable.

Gotcha. I agree with this.

I didn’t know if you meant ignorant as only meaning never having even heard of God before.

 

[FractalFire]

I think we have to be a little careful to not over simplify the CCC. It says “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Clearly someone who is non Catholic knows that Catholics believe the Church was founded by God through Christ, but they may not believe it actually was.

Ignorance doesn’t just mean a person is completely unfamiliar with the beliefs. It can also mean that they know OF the beliefs, but genuinely don’t think they are true.

I think the main point here is the deliberate and full rejection of God/Jesus. A person cannot necessarily deliberately and fully reject something that they simply do not believe exist in the first place.

Perhaps. The danger I see in this is setting the bar too low and excepting a sort of universalism philosophy (which has never been the church position). It should also be pointed out that many could have every intellectual reason given to them to believe, but still refuse out of say, stubbornness (or for some other illogical reason).

Also, I think an argument could be made, as William Lane Craig does, that every person has an inner witness of the Holy Spirit that draws them towards God – the intellect is a way towards God, but the prompting of the Holy Spirit also moves them.

Regardless, we should attempt to bring God to the atheist, regardless of whether he may or may not have this inward salvation. In the first case, it is unlikely (or at least, we cannot be sure) that he does and in the second case, if he is somehow inwardly save, he would doubtless prefer to know about it ()!

 

[Catholic_Lady]

Perhaps. The danger I see in this is setting the bar too low and excepting a sort of universalism philosophy (which has never been the church position). It should also be pointed out that many could have every intellectual reason given to them to believe, but still refuse out of say, stubbornness (or for some other illogical reason).

Also, I think an argument could be made, as William Lane Craig does, that every person has an inner witness of the Holy Spirit that draws them towards God – the intellect is a way towards God, but the prompting of the Holy Spirit also moves them.

Regardless, we should attempt to bring God to the atheist, regardless of whether he may or may not have this inward salvation. In the first case, it is unlikely (or at least, we cannot be sure) that he does and in the second case, if he is somehow inwardly save, he would doubtless prefer to know about it ()!

I agree with all this.

 

[FractalFire]

my bold.

True, but they can receive grace after they die - when they see God for the first time, realize He actually is real, and choose to surrender their already kind (yet imperfect) hearts to Him. Some time in Purgatory would probably be needed as it is for most people, I’m sure.

Once more, I caution you to recognize that this is not because they are kind. That has nothing to do with why they would be saved in such a circumstance. You seem to much caught up in the fact that they are good people , but I tell you – not even the best of people (by our standards), if they reject God, are truly good people in the end (for God is moral goodness Himself. One might as well say one can rebel against the Law and be innocent.)

I think also the implications seem to lie more strongly on the idea that they would respond to God in this life. Regardless, I urge you not to let respect for their good deeds to blind you to the fact that they too are sinners in need of salvation just as you and I are and that good deeds will not avail any of us (or endear God to us because we have been “good” by our own selfish and lawless standards).

 

[tweedlealice]

Is it essential that we believe in God to go to Heaven

Salutations,
There is a site I found which I don’t know how to hyperlink. It states 4 limbos than hell. Hard to get to hell. A person who has never heard of Christ who sacrifices for people and loves them is felt by some theologians to have had their hearts spoken to by the Holy Spirit and they live as Christ lived. Some of these people were before CHRIST came. Same applies after Christ. What of those who heard of Jesus and reject Him? Maybe a limbo to be taught about and meet Jesus. Repentence needed?. My daughter, after her husband was killed in Iraq became an atheist. If there was a God, He could have saved Him. I think she may believe but is angry at Him, which God can handle. Which Limbo level to be re-educated and meet Jesus. Let us not forget the CHAPLET OF MERCY. Her fiance has been atheist since late teens. He was shot in L 2 the same year her husband was killed. In wheelchair. Has colostomy and has to self catherize. Autonomic nerves work fine as Stephen Hawkins has stated.
God knows my heart is broken till they rejoice in knowing Jesus again. My other son in law committed suicide 7 months after Jason was killed in Iraq. 2007 was a very bad year. Pray for George who was 33yo when he committed suicide on 12/31. Jason had been 24yo. My moccasins have walked a long via Doloroso but Jesus has been with me every step of the way. Thank you God for the crosses and helping me to carry them.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[Gliggle]

Yes. God gives everyone every Grace they need to be saved, and he especially chooses everyone situation in life. He especially put many people in our world in a position where they would grow up Atheist and possibly never get a chance to fully comprehend the mystery of Faith in their lifetime. For some reason he has chose Christians to provide this, and he knows that we fall short often in our demonstration of our Christianity “You will know them by their love”. He will not punish Atheists for our failings.

I believe this is also true for poorly Catechised Christians and other people who have fallen away from their faith.

It’s better to be a Catholic though, because the truth will set us free. An Atheist lives their life as a prisoner of the lies of Satan, that is why we must still evangelise. To see a prisoner in chains and not care if they are never set free is wrong.

 

[tweedlealice]

Hmm I remember before Francis became pope I came on these threads to debate this, and they would give me quotes from the current pope, and i tried to disagree with the substance, and they claimed infallability, and he is the final say on all church law. Now i when I come here and argue Pope Francis’s more progressive ideas I get met with that he is not the real boss, or he cant change church law, or he is not infalliable. I don’t understand.

Salutations,
Infallibility comes when the Pope speaks ex cathedra which means from official throne.
I know Benedict xvi stated condoms can be used to prevent the spread of AIDS. He did encourage celibacy amongst Homosexuals and all people, so STD’s would not be spread. Then Francis w the ski virus from mosquitoes stated birth control can be used in women who could get pregnant to prevent the c/O microcephaly in the babies. Practical advice from the church but startling to me.
May we learn to live by Christ’s laws and prevent all kinds of sinful complications.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[Gliggle]

Salutations,
There is a site I found which I don’t know how to hyperlink. It states 4 limbos than hell. Hard to get to hell. A person who has never heard of Christ who sacrifices for people and loves them is felt by some theologians to have had their hearts spoken to by the Holy Spirit and they live as Christ lived. Some of these people were before CHRIST came. Same applies after Christ. What of those who heard of Jesus and reject Him? Maybe a limbo to be taught about and meet Jesus. Repentence needed?. My daughter, after her husband was killed in Iraq became an atheist. If there was a God, He could have saved Him. I think she may believe but is angry at Him, which God can handle. Which Limbo level to be re-educated and meet Jesus. Let us not forget the CHAPLET OF MERCY. Her fiance has been atheist since late teens. He was shot in L 2 the same year her husband was killed. In wheelchair. Has colostomy and has to self catherize. Autonomic nerves work fine as Stephen Hawkins has stated.
God knows my heart is broken till they rejoice in knowing Jesus again. My other son in law committed suicide 7 months after Jason was killed in Iraq. 2007 was a very bad year. Pray for George who was 33yo when he committed suicide on 12/31. Jason had been 24yo. My moccasins have walked a long via Doloroso but Jesus has been with me every step of the way. Thank you God for the crosses and helping me to carry them.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

How sad to hear. Praying for your sons-in-laws and daughter and son-in-law to be.

 

[RCbkr]

Why would one want to spend eternity with God if one didn’t believe in God? Seems that having to be with God forever would make being in heaven pretty miserable for such a person.

 

[Catholic_Lady]

Once more, I caution you to recognize that this is not because they are kind. That has nothing to do with why they would be saved in such a circumstance. You seem to much caught up in the fact that they are good people , but I tell you – not even the best of people (by our standards), if they reject God, are truly good people in the end (for God is moral goodness Himself. One might as well say one can rebel against the Law and be innocent.)

I think also the implications seem to lie more strongly on the idea that they would respond to God in this life. Regardless, I urge you not to let respect for their good deeds to blind you to the fact that they too are sinners in need of salvation just as you and I are and that good deeds will not avail any of us (or endear God to us because we have been “good” by our own selfish and lawless standards).

By “kind” I don’t mean just being nicey nice. I mean actually following the path of Jesus - loving thy neighbor, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, living a life of honesty, integrity, and compassion, etc. Those are not my standards of how a person should act, but they are God’s.

And I do think being kind does play a role, and I’ll tell you why. God is literally love and goodness. A person who truly does have a good heart will accept God (who is love and goodness) when the person finds out He actually is real. That may not be until after the person dies, but a kind heart will be much more likely to humble themselves before God than a hardened heart. So yes, I do think it does matter.

Also, I am in no way saying anyone is perfect, which is why I made sure to also say in my last post to you that they would certainly most likely need to spend some time in purgatory. A period of transition where they can really come to know God, since they did not do that in this life.

 

[JewishCatholic]

Once more, I caution you to recognize that this is not because they are kind. That has nothing to do with why they would be saved in such a circumstance. You seem to much caught up in the fact that they are good people , but I tell you – not even the best of people (by our standards), if they reject God, are truly good people in the end (for God is moral goodness Himself. One might as well say one can rebel against the Law and be innocent.)

I think also the implications seem to lie more strongly on the idea that they would respond to God in this life. Regardless, I urge you not to let respect for their good deeds to blind you to the fact that they too are sinners in need of salvation just as you and I are and that good deeds will not avail any of us (or endear God to us because we have been “good” by our own selfish and lawless standards).

I plead with you to to read the bible,
For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’…
When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jesus clearly is saying that those who do good will be let in to the kingdom of heaven and those who do wicked will be cursed out and thrown into hell.