Atheist clubs are springing up in American high schools, warns head of US Catholic bishops
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reggieM
Guest
I’m grateful that Cardinal George is getting concerned about this issue.
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DOShea
Guest
There was a line in the movie The American President where Michael J. Fox’s character is talking to the President (Michael Douglas). The President has been getting hammered in the polls because his opponent, Bob Rumson is all over the media making charges and the President isn’t responding to any of them. Fox is urging him to fight back.
Fox says: “They don’t have a choice! Bob Rumson is the only one doing the talking! People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand.”
That same thing is true in this situation. Where is the leadership when 1 or 2 individuals DEMAND no prayer at a school event? Why are there not a gaggle of Bishops issuing press statements? Why are there not 5,000 Catholic letters to the editor the next day calling it out? Instead we are the house divided. Some condemn it, others say it’s harmless, others just don’t care.
Imagine the response Dan Brown will get when he writes a Muslim version of the Divinci Code? I’ll be we’ll see some leadership then. Why is it we never seem to have any when push comes to shove?
Why is it we have a Bishop on one side of the nation refusing communion to an abortion advocate, while one on the other side says you are uncharitable for questioning the validity of what we’re told was a Mass for an equal advocate of abortion. Unless or until we cease this kind of behavior, it’s always going to be a state of confusion where there is no leadership. It’s like a kid who wants a cookie, Dad says no, mom says yes. This makes it extremely easy for anyone to challenge the church, since it speaks with no one voice. When you read the papers, the concept of “Christian” is portrayed as Rev. Phelps, making all of us easy and desirable to mock.
It will take leadership to ever turn that around. As long as we’re afraid to offend anyone, we should just be content to be offended at every turn.
Fox says: “They don’t have a choice! Bob Rumson is the only one doing the talking! People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand.”
That same thing is true in this situation. Where is the leadership when 1 or 2 individuals DEMAND no prayer at a school event? Why are there not a gaggle of Bishops issuing press statements? Why are there not 5,000 Catholic letters to the editor the next day calling it out? Instead we are the house divided. Some condemn it, others say it’s harmless, others just don’t care.
Imagine the response Dan Brown will get when he writes a Muslim version of the Divinci Code? I’ll be we’ll see some leadership then. Why is it we never seem to have any when push comes to shove?
Why is it we have a Bishop on one side of the nation refusing communion to an abortion advocate, while one on the other side says you are uncharitable for questioning the validity of what we’re told was a Mass for an equal advocate of abortion. Unless or until we cease this kind of behavior, it’s always going to be a state of confusion where there is no leadership. It’s like a kid who wants a cookie, Dad says no, mom says yes. This makes it extremely easy for anyone to challenge the church, since it speaks with no one voice. When you read the papers, the concept of “Christian” is portrayed as Rev. Phelps, making all of us easy and desirable to mock.
It will take leadership to ever turn that around. As long as we’re afraid to offend anyone, we should just be content to be offended at every turn.
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reggieM
Guest
There’s a wealth of insight in your commentary, DOShea. Strong words, but very necessary for everyone to reflect on, in my opinion.
I could go on and on, but I’ll merely note that the Cardinal didn’t hesitate to grant his interview to the National Catholic Reporter.
And we wonder about failure of leadership, lack of committment, paralysis due to contradictory beliefs.
The atheism we see today is spawned by lax, indifferent and dissenting Catholicism. That also spawns the shallow fundamentalism we see growing – in Christian sects and in Islam.
Catholics alone possess the full light of truth – whether we want it or not – it’s the gift we’ve been given. When we fail (for all the reasons you gave), then the light goes out and darkness begins to become victorious.
That’s exactly what we’re seeing among American teens and twenties.
Maybe a few more people will wake up to this – it’s something to pray for.
R
rep140
Guest
I have to agree with Cardinal George in this interview. His conclusion that liberal/conservative labels makes us a bishop focused Church and not a Christ focused Church. This can be seen from comments above. I think that the reason we lose so many young people is we promote the structure of the Church more than emphasizing Christ and what He taught.
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reggieM
Guest
The good Cardinal engaged in quite a bit of bishop-bashing in that interview itself. He blames the bishops for the breakdown in catechesis as well as the distorted teachings that came after Vatican II. He also blames them (partially) for creating the environment that gives us liberal, conservative and indifferent as the three major categories of Catholics. He also blames them for teaching a view of Catholicism based first on the bishop’s authority (which is a traditional, orthodox concept – but only if the bishop lives under authority to the Holy See and to God).
Cardinal George also claims here that errors in catechetics have been corrected already. It was the traditionalist-conservatives that exposed and fought those errors for some decades before the CCC was published.
As for young people leaving the Church, I don’t know where “we” have promoted the structure of the Church. Where I live, it’s dominated by liberal-dissenting Catholics and they promote the dissolution of the hierarchy (and doctrine, liturgy and morals) as much as possible.
Young Catholics have little substance or depth in their faith. They’re not really leaving the Church as they are merely experiencing the spiritual emptyness that has been fostered in them.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
I strongly disagree. There is one major reason the Church is divided into two camps in this country:
A B O R T I O N !
Period, end of story. The focus does turn towards the Bishops because many of them utterly refuse to truly lead in the area of life! If the Bishops took a true stance regarding life, then all other issues can quickly be resolved.
So long as the Church quietly allows the slaughter of the most innocent among us, it will never regain its moral authority…young people see their inability to truly act and lead.
We need Saints, not career clergymen.
R
rep140
Guest
As for young people leaving the Church, I don’t know where “we” have promoted the structure of the Church. Where I live, it’s dominated by liberal-dissenting Catholics and they promote the dissolution of the hierarchy (and doctrine, liturgy and morals) as much as possible.
Young Catholics have little substance or depth in their faith. They’re not really leaving the Church as they are merely experiencing the spiritual emptyness that has been fostered in them.
I don’t know how to highlight this, but I am responding to the post above. I think that the dissenters get more publicity than their numbers deserve. I don’t think it is dissent as much as the spiritual emptyness mentioned that is the problem. A friend teaches a Confirmation class. She moans about the materials given her. There is so much emphasis on Church structure and Church teaching and so little on developing a relationship with Christ.
Young Catholics have little substance or depth in their faith. They’re not really leaving the Church as they are merely experiencing the spiritual emptyness that has been fostered in them.
I don’t know how to highlight this, but I am responding to the post above. I think that the dissenters get more publicity than their numbers deserve. I don’t think it is dissent as much as the spiritual emptyness mentioned that is the problem. A friend teaches a Confirmation class. She moans about the materials given her. There is so much emphasis on Church structure and Church teaching and so little on developing a relationship with Christ.
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reggieM
Guest
The educational materials have been very bad for a long time. But I would say that one cannot have or develop a true relationship with Christ without embracing His teachings which come to us through the Church.
That point is very sadly missed in most educational programs.
Cardinal George complained about it also:
The Second Vatican Council said we have to present the church to the world, and the truth of the gospel, and it said that you don’t have to worry about people who don’t believe. [The idea was that] this is so beautiful that they will come along and accept it, but that’s not true. You have people who weren’t catechized – not because they weren’t told the truth, but because they weren’t told ‘this is not the truth, and here’s why.’ That’s why I write about putting apologetics back into catechesis.
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Cluny
Guest
I do not know how the laws run in the United Kingdom.
However, in the United States there is freedom of association, guaranteed by the U. S. Constitution.
Conservative Christians pushed Freedom of School Access laws to allow for Christian-themed groups to meet on school property during school time.
Well, guess what? These laws allow for OTHER religious groups to meet, including those who are firm in the faith of non-faith.
You cannot allow Christian groups and at the same time forbid atheist groups.
However, in the United States there is freedom of association, guaranteed by the U. S. Constitution.
Conservative Christians pushed Freedom of School Access laws to allow for Christian-themed groups to meet on school property during school time.
Well, guess what? These laws allow for OTHER religious groups to meet, including those who are firm in the faith of non-faith.
You cannot allow Christian groups and at the same time forbid atheist groups.
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lemonbeam
Guest
He’s not saying that atheist groups should be forbidden.
But why do atheists need a group? Why do you need a group for a non-belief? I could understand it if you live in a Theocracy, but you don’t. Atheists aren’t forced to read the Bible or go to Church. You are free to believe what you want.
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reggieM
Guest
Correct. The legal right to assemble is not the question.
Excellent questions. Here, atheists will claim that they should be given rights that other “religious groups” have. Then they’ll claim that they’re “not religious”.
What does atheism contribute to society? Supposedly, it’s like a group of people who don’t believe in stamp-collecting. What value can that have for anyone? It’s a group that celebrates nothingness. Atheism does not have a positive program to assert. It’s built entirely on negation.
Of course, that doesn’t prevent atheism from serving as a religion, since it supplies so-called answers for the most important questions of life. But atheists don’t admit that either. So, they contradict themselves yet again.
J
JaMc
Guest
This reminds me of part of the irony in Chesterton’s “The Man Who Was Thursday,” where the anarchist group is, in fact, governed by a very sophisticated organizational structure (I won’t tell the other ironic part of the story, since it would ruin it for anyone who hasn’t read it).
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CesarAugustus
Guest
Lack of good catechesis
Where I live, some people go for Traditionalist or progressive views, but
not a lot of people try to maintain themselves in line with the Magisterium
And you have the masses of people with a lack of strong faith foundations
Where I live, some people go for Traditionalist or progressive views, but
not a lot of people try to maintain themselves in line with the Magisterium
And you have the masses of people with a lack of strong faith foundations
R
rep140
Guest
Good catechesis is tough to do. I agree with the Cardinal that you have to have a good reason to give people for why the Church teaches as she does. A problem with many who teach in religious programs is that they have never questioned their faith themselves so they can’t adequately address concerns others may have about Church teachings.
I think that if you have never questioned your faith it would be tough to say that you have really made a free will choice to follow it.
I think that if you have never questioned your faith it would be tough to say that you have really made a free will choice to follow it.
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edwest2
Guest
“question your faith”? What, exactly, do you mean by that?
The reason the New, Militant Atheism is operational, now, goes back to the 1960s. It was part of a social engineering program based on a weakness in Catholics and communities at large during the time period: Respect For Authority. And Respect for EACH OTHER.
People restrained themselves. There were social rules of engagement. We did not lock our doors at night. Do not ever blame Vatican II.
1968 Humani Generis, the turning point for everyone. Don’t use artificial contraception or you will value the love of your life less. Send in the Hippies. The sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake. Free love! Sex with anyone. Scramble your brain. Smoke dope. drop acid (LSD, a powerful hallucinogen). You mom, dad, priests and nuns don’t know anything.
The Vietnam War is going badly. What was accomplished in a few years in Germany, and three in Korea, will not occur in Vietnam. The survivors will be badly treated by the public.
1970 Dissidents and the disillusioned leave the Catholic Church (Time magazine cover story).
1970s Porn legalized. Adult Bookstores open everywhere selling graphic porn. Head Shops (Head meaning dope head) open selling underground newspapers introducing young people to communism, marxism, general anarchy and targeting of “evil” corporations. Underground comix appear introducing young people to perverted sexuality and drug trip-like images.
1973 Abortion legalized. Homosexuality removed by non-scientific vote from the DSM.
Television gradually becomes more sexualized. Movies also.
– The gradualness was the key. It all started as a little off color, a little bawdy, a little risque. Too many, me included for a while, said, “Oh, that’s not so bad.”
1978 The National Organization for Women tears up the rules between men and women. They convince some women they will be the eternal victims of the eternal enemy - men. Are they solution oriented? No. They push for Women’s Studies, and Women’s Culture and separation. Relationships become a matter of power and control. Men are referred to as “male chauvenist pigs.” Gloria Steinem starts Ms. Magazine (the origin of that word), a sort of Playboy for women.
By the 1980s, the fear and mistrust generated by NOW bears fruit when No-Fault Divorce completes its sweep of the country. No kids? For a small fee, you’re out and no messy court fight.
Here is where women were painted into a corner. Free from their husbands, they needed to work, especially if alimony or child support were difficult to get. Now, in some cases, the divorce may have been justified, but what else happened? Pain was spread to the children and in-laws on both sides. And what about their relationship with the Church? One I knew refused to get an annulment because that would make her kids illegitimate. She married her next husband in a courtroom.
1990s Shock jocks. Rap. Partial Nudity and Profanity on NYPD Blue. Porn on the internet 24/7.
The Big Problem. The BIGGEST problem was the destruction of the holy and life-giving bond of matrimony. You do it by telling Catholics in the late 1960s: “You know what the problem is with you Catholics? You’re sexually repressed!” Then you send out the Hippies to show you how to live “free” and ruin your brain, and your life. You ignore the Pope and go on The Pill. In 1973, in my Catholic high school, mandatory sex education. For what? All the Catholics I knew understood the seriousness of marriage and that it meant a lifelong commitment. Sex was about having kids while married. It was not to be treated lightly. Women were treated with respect, which meant no sexual intercourse while dating.
The Church was not to blame for the most part. Individual Catholics made very bad choices involving themselves, their kids and their relatives. Can you imagine living through the late 1960s and being Catholic, finally waking up one day in the 1990s and realizing you’ve had an abortion or two, a divorce or two, you have bitter in-laws and kids that may or may not hate you? And with all this, you also realize that you’ve allowed yourself to acclimate to the culture around you? I can imagine why some of these people stopped going to Church. Which would be easier? Staying away or walking into a Confessional? Which would be easier? Simply accepting having sex with whoever, getting divorced and then moving on to husband number three? After all, everyone else is doing it. It’s in the movies, it’s on TV. E V E R Y O N E is like this now. It’s normal, right? It’s OK, right?
It’s not OK or normal. There is no new normal. That is why the Church is inviting you back now. And I encourage everyone reading this: Now is the time to simply ask for forgiveness and renew your mind.
Peace,
Ed
1980s Here is where the separation occurred. Dallas with the ultra-evil J.R. Ewing. Sue Ellen drinking liquor straight out of the bottle while driving. Movies are getting worse
The reason the New, Militant Atheism is operational, now, goes back to the 1960s. It was part of a social engineering program based on a weakness in Catholics and communities at large during the time period: Respect For Authority. And Respect for EACH OTHER.
People restrained themselves. There were social rules of engagement. We did not lock our doors at night. Do not ever blame Vatican II.
1968 Humani Generis, the turning point for everyone. Don’t use artificial contraception or you will value the love of your life less. Send in the Hippies. The sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake. Free love! Sex with anyone. Scramble your brain. Smoke dope. drop acid (LSD, a powerful hallucinogen). You mom, dad, priests and nuns don’t know anything.
The Vietnam War is going badly. What was accomplished in a few years in Germany, and three in Korea, will not occur in Vietnam. The survivors will be badly treated by the public.
1970 Dissidents and the disillusioned leave the Catholic Church (Time magazine cover story).
1970s Porn legalized. Adult Bookstores open everywhere selling graphic porn. Head Shops (Head meaning dope head) open selling underground newspapers introducing young people to communism, marxism, general anarchy and targeting of “evil” corporations. Underground comix appear introducing young people to perverted sexuality and drug trip-like images.
1973 Abortion legalized. Homosexuality removed by non-scientific vote from the DSM.
Television gradually becomes more sexualized. Movies also.
– The gradualness was the key. It all started as a little off color, a little bawdy, a little risque. Too many, me included for a while, said, “Oh, that’s not so bad.”
1978 The National Organization for Women tears up the rules between men and women. They convince some women they will be the eternal victims of the eternal enemy - men. Are they solution oriented? No. They push for Women’s Studies, and Women’s Culture and separation. Relationships become a matter of power and control. Men are referred to as “male chauvenist pigs.” Gloria Steinem starts Ms. Magazine (the origin of that word), a sort of Playboy for women.
By the 1980s, the fear and mistrust generated by NOW bears fruit when No-Fault Divorce completes its sweep of the country. No kids? For a small fee, you’re out and no messy court fight.
Here is where women were painted into a corner. Free from their husbands, they needed to work, especially if alimony or child support were difficult to get. Now, in some cases, the divorce may have been justified, but what else happened? Pain was spread to the children and in-laws on both sides. And what about their relationship with the Church? One I knew refused to get an annulment because that would make her kids illegitimate. She married her next husband in a courtroom.
1990s Shock jocks. Rap. Partial Nudity and Profanity on NYPD Blue. Porn on the internet 24/7.
The Big Problem. The BIGGEST problem was the destruction of the holy and life-giving bond of matrimony. You do it by telling Catholics in the late 1960s: “You know what the problem is with you Catholics? You’re sexually repressed!” Then you send out the Hippies to show you how to live “free” and ruin your brain, and your life. You ignore the Pope and go on The Pill. In 1973, in my Catholic high school, mandatory sex education. For what? All the Catholics I knew understood the seriousness of marriage and that it meant a lifelong commitment. Sex was about having kids while married. It was not to be treated lightly. Women were treated with respect, which meant no sexual intercourse while dating.
The Church was not to blame for the most part. Individual Catholics made very bad choices involving themselves, their kids and their relatives. Can you imagine living through the late 1960s and being Catholic, finally waking up one day in the 1990s and realizing you’ve had an abortion or two, a divorce or two, you have bitter in-laws and kids that may or may not hate you? And with all this, you also realize that you’ve allowed yourself to acclimate to the culture around you? I can imagine why some of these people stopped going to Church. Which would be easier? Staying away or walking into a Confessional? Which would be easier? Simply accepting having sex with whoever, getting divorced and then moving on to husband number three? After all, everyone else is doing it. It’s in the movies, it’s on TV. E V E R Y O N E is like this now. It’s normal, right? It’s OK, right?
It’s not OK or normal. There is no new normal. That is why the Church is inviting you back now. And I encourage everyone reading this: Now is the time to simply ask for forgiveness and renew your mind.
Peace,
Ed
1980s Here is where the separation occurred. Dallas with the ultra-evil J.R. Ewing. Sue Ellen drinking liquor straight out of the bottle while driving. Movies are getting worse
R
rep140
Guest
Ed,
Have you ever taught religious ed with any success? My wife teaches Confirmation and has the real problem of reaching these kids. She says that Confirmation appears to be their exit out of the Church. I do RCIA in our parish. It blows my mind that people will go through 9 months of classes, enter the Church at the Easter Vigil, and never be seen again. If people do not accept the message we have either done a poor job or we have a bad product to sell.
Have you ever taught religious ed with any success? My wife teaches Confirmation and has the real problem of reaching these kids. She says that Confirmation appears to be their exit out of the Church. I do RCIA in our parish. It blows my mind that people will go through 9 months of classes, enter the Church at the Easter Vigil, and never be seen again. If people do not accept the message we have either done a poor job or we have a bad product to sell.
E
edwest2
Guest
I have never taught religious ed. I suggest you get in touch with a Catholic group that understands teens:
crossroadsinitiative.com/audience/3.html
Contact your Diocese and speak to a few priests. Catholic culture was respected and admired in the 1950s and 1960s because it was reaffirmed by the everyday actions of the people around us. The movies and TV programs reflected our values. Today, they do not. The music was good, and about love and devotion.
God bless,
Ed
crossroadsinitiative.com/audience/3.html
Contact your Diocese and speak to a few priests. Catholic culture was respected and admired in the 1950s and 1960s because it was reaffirmed by the everyday actions of the people around us. The movies and TV programs reflected our values. Today, they do not. The music was good, and about love and devotion.
God bless,
Ed
S
spellinggirl
Guest
My public high school has both a Fellowship of Christian Students (I am not a member because of their heavily evangelical Protestant values), a Mormon Seminary, and Fellowship of Atheist Students. They ALL have a right to exist. You cannnot forbid one and allow the others.
The Fellowship of Atheist Students actually discusses all faiths in general and then they talk about why they are having a hard time following a faith or why they have never followed a faith. I heard this from the group’s founder.
Everyone has a right to congregate in such a setting with others of their faith (or non-faith). We have the freedom to worship (or not worship) as we please in this country.
The Fellowship of Atheist Students actually discusses all faiths in general and then they talk about why they are having a hard time following a faith or why they have never followed a faith. I heard this from the group’s founder.
Everyone has a right to congregate in such a setting with others of their faith (or non-faith). We have the freedom to worship (or not worship) as we please in this country.
E
Et_Cetera
Guest
It’s a free country. These high school students have the right to form such a club. There are both religious and non-religious clubs to meet the interests of students. If they want to talk about atheism with their peers, then that should not be seen as a personal attack against anyone, but rather as a convenient way for students to express their views.
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