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rep140
Guest
At least these aethiests think about God.
Atheist clubs are springing up in American high schools, warns head of US Catholic bishops
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almostatheist
Guest
I guess it’s sort of like having a vegetarian club or something. Atheism can be a way of life just as religion can be a way of life. A lot of people have pre-assumed ideas about atheists (they are angry, they are religion haters, etc.) and experience a lot of frustration/alienation because they don’t belong to a religious group. With an atheist club they can feel like they belong to something without having to follow a set of beliefs they may not agree with. I think it’s mostly a companionship issue.
Some clubs have no apparent value beyond congregation, like… I don’t know… a pokemon fan club or something. It’s just a place for kids to go to keep them off the streets. One thing that many atheists celebrate is science, and who can argue that science doesn’t have value?
I know that many prominent atheists atheists like Richard Dawkins claim to have all the answers (and none involve God), but they are not the majority. Many atheists, especially teens who have so many problems already, are just looking for answers and have yet to find them in religion.
Thank you for asking such poignant questions.
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reggieM
Guest
It is sort of like that, except with vegetarians there can be a positive program that everyone is united on – namely, the enjoyment of vegetarian dishes and all of that. With atheism, however, there’s nothing that can be advanced as a positive program. It’s entirely orientated towards the negatition of God or of faith in God.
As above, I can’t see how that is possible on a deeper level. But I will agree that most atheists (especially youth) will find some kind of lifestyle within atheism. But that doesn’t really make sense unless atheism is something more than merely “non belief in gods”.
This also is probably true, but for the reasons I gave above and other reasons it is really an incoherent viewpoint. Atheism is supposed to free a person from needing a religious community. Atheists are supposed to be independent thinkers who have boldly broken away from the perennial religious faith and inheritance of mankind – smashing all of the culture and societal links build by religion. Atheism thumbs its nose at religious convention and mocks that which has been held sacred by humanity.
Then after all of that, atheists feel alienated and frustrated because they don’t belong to anything so they join together in a group – to replace what they lost from religion. But the group has no meaning and nothing to bind them in common.
Two problems – again pokemon fan clubs celebrate interest in pokemon. That’s a common, binding interest for the group and a positive thing that all have in common.
Secondly, it is often claimed that “science has nothing to do with or to say about religion”. But if you’re right, science serves as a support for atheism – at least to say that has something to hold a group of atheists together.
It would be like saying “most atheists like bowling – and bowling has value”. But there is nothing that logically joins bowling with atheism. Even if there was, atheists could join a bowling league and not need to start an atheist club in order to talk about bowling. The same is true with science. Why not join a science club?
But I do agree with you in part. These clubs serve a purpose for the people who join them. As I see it, those purposes undercut what people claim about atheism. It’s not just a matter of “not believing in gods” but usually it’s a hatred of religion and of God.
There may be many high school kids who are confused and then find friendships in atheist groups. But they’re not informed enough about religion and faith to actually be atheists.
You may be correct but I’d like to know how you concluded that. I could make a judgement about the atheists I’ve had discussions with here on CAF. I’d say 90% of them have the same attitude that Dawkins does – some have been even more hostile towards religion.
I think that’s a very good point and I agree. I think they’re looking for answers and for various reasons they don’t want to approach religion through inquiry. They prefer to withdraw and associate with atheists. Perhaps they’re afraid of churches or they dont’ have access to religious believers who they think they can trust. Their parents might not have given them any religious background at all.
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AntiTheist
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Where are you getting these “supposed tos” from, exactly? I have never met an atheist who wants to “smash all of the culture and societal links built by religion.” In fact, quite a few of the atheists I know – myself included – really enjoy religious art.
At any rate, atheists are human beings – human beings like to hang out with other human beings. In a lot of cases, not having a belief in gods makes one an outcast among the religious. There are stories of atheists who have lost their religious friends, had religious family members disown them and/or not welcome them in their homes, etc.
The religious have many ready-made communities for themselves everywhere around the country. Atheists have very, very few, especially in areas with high numbers of believers. It’s not terribly surprising that people who don’t believe in god would enjoy hanging out with other people who don’t believe in god.
A “club” doesn’t need to have goals beyond getting together, but I think a lot of these atheist groups have guest speakers on various issues, debates on issues, social events, etc
I don’t believe I have ever heard Richard Dawkins claim to have “all the answers.” He says in The God Delusion that on a scale of 1-7 (1 being absolute certainty that there is a god and 7 being absolute certainty that there is no god), he would be a 6.9
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almostatheist
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You can have a club based around the negation of something (like an anti-abortion group) that still focuses on positive things. They may not have traditional religious beliefs, but many atheists do possess a sense of morality. Many atheists (I’m not an atheist, but I’ve heard this claim) claim that religion is detrimental to society and that atheism is a cure. So why wouldn’t they form an atheist club as a way of helping society. Picking up trash or raising money to cure cancer or something. I have no idea what an atheist club actually does, but I don’t see any reason it couldn’t just be a group of like-minded people wanting to do something positive, especially since atheism (by nature) has negative connotations.
Not all atheists mock religion, they simply reject conventional religion for a variety of reasons. As I stated before, I’m not an atheist (I’m agnostic), but when I chose to leave the church I felt very isolated because almost all of my friends and family were Catholic/Christian. I still don’t know very many like-minded people, but it was very refreshing to find friends who weren’t trying to nudge religion into every conversation in an effort to evangelize me. It actually gave me a chance to step back from the whole thing and evaluate it myself without all the emotional baggage of hurting my friends and family. I know now why I fell away from the Catholic church and am at a point where I have to choose for myself what I believe is right. I don’t think I would have come to that conclusion without the care of my atheist friends who could see beyond my hurt and frustration and get to the real issues behind my lack of faith.
When I was a Catholic I had very similar ideas about atheists because the ones you hear from on forums like these are the antagonistic ones, the ones that go out and look for trouble. But many atheists are simply people who haven’t found answers in religion, and most are just people trying to live their lives. It may not always seem like it, but once on the outside of the church walls it can become very clear what a religion-centered world we live in. Not all atheists are angry, and not all atheists are hurt, but they certainly might end up that way if people go hating on their clubs.
This weekend I had the option of going to two Halloween parties. The first one I knew would be dominated by very outspoken (kind of offensive) Catholics. The other wold be mostly atheists, agnostics, and science students. I’m incredibly sensitive about my lack of belief in a god. So naturally I figured I’d have a better time at the non-Catholic party. The Catholics are still my friends, but when I want to relax and socialize I’d rather do it with people I’m less likely to get into a heated debate with. Just like I’d rather discuss science with people who won’t bring up creationsim vs evolution. And I’d rather not bowl with people who ask me why I don’t go to church.
What you say about kids being uninformed about religion and atheism is correct. And it’s true that many kids leave the church out of ignorance or rebellion, but both ignorance and rebellion can be cured through patience and understanding. Arguing with them, fighting the ethical implications of their club, or even trying to get them to see reason is almost diffidently not going to work. Deprograming of any nature, even if it has the desired affect of getting a person to leave their new-found philosophical home, often leaves the patient with little or no real desire to adhere to a true faith life of any kind and can lead to depression, isolation, reconnection with old habits, or even suicide.
Actions always reveal a person’s true intent. Fighting will always produce more fighting. Mistrust will always produce more mistrust. And hatred always produces more hatred. Be very aware of this when you deal with anyone who has a differing religious opinion than you. Remember that YOU could be the reason they no longer have any interest in the church. If you truly believe what you preach remember that you always represent your Christ.
Don’t tell my atheist friends, but I secretly hope that I’ll someday find the person who leads me back to the church. I miss feeling a part of things.
Not all atheists mock religion, they simply reject conventional religion for a variety of reasons. As I stated before, I’m not an atheist (I’m agnostic), but when I chose to leave the church I felt very isolated because almost all of my friends and family were Catholic/Christian. I still don’t know very many like-minded people, but it was very refreshing to find friends who weren’t trying to nudge religion into every conversation in an effort to evangelize me. It actually gave me a chance to step back from the whole thing and evaluate it myself without all the emotional baggage of hurting my friends and family. I know now why I fell away from the Catholic church and am at a point where I have to choose for myself what I believe is right. I don’t think I would have come to that conclusion without the care of my atheist friends who could see beyond my hurt and frustration and get to the real issues behind my lack of faith.
When I was a Catholic I had very similar ideas about atheists because the ones you hear from on forums like these are the antagonistic ones, the ones that go out and look for trouble. But many atheists are simply people who haven’t found answers in religion, and most are just people trying to live their lives. It may not always seem like it, but once on the outside of the church walls it can become very clear what a religion-centered world we live in. Not all atheists are angry, and not all atheists are hurt, but they certainly might end up that way if people go hating on their clubs.
This weekend I had the option of going to two Halloween parties. The first one I knew would be dominated by very outspoken (kind of offensive) Catholics. The other wold be mostly atheists, agnostics, and science students. I’m incredibly sensitive about my lack of belief in a god. So naturally I figured I’d have a better time at the non-Catholic party. The Catholics are still my friends, but when I want to relax and socialize I’d rather do it with people I’m less likely to get into a heated debate with. Just like I’d rather discuss science with people who won’t bring up creationsim vs evolution. And I’d rather not bowl with people who ask me why I don’t go to church.
What you say about kids being uninformed about religion and atheism is correct. And it’s true that many kids leave the church out of ignorance or rebellion, but both ignorance and rebellion can be cured through patience and understanding. Arguing with them, fighting the ethical implications of their club, or even trying to get them to see reason is almost diffidently not going to work. Deprograming of any nature, even if it has the desired affect of getting a person to leave their new-found philosophical home, often leaves the patient with little or no real desire to adhere to a true faith life of any kind and can lead to depression, isolation, reconnection with old habits, or even suicide.
Actions always reveal a person’s true intent. Fighting will always produce more fighting. Mistrust will always produce more mistrust. And hatred always produces more hatred. Be very aware of this when you deal with anyone who has a differing religious opinion than you. Remember that YOU could be the reason they no longer have any interest in the church. If you truly believe what you preach remember that you always represent your Christ.
Don’t tell my atheist friends, but I secretly hope that I’ll someday find the person who leads me back to the church. I miss feeling a part of things.
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almostatheist
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Yeah, I meant to put that in quotes. It’s a phrase my mom uses when she insists of bringing up the ID vs Evolution debate.
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reggieM
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Atheism does smash those things though. Atheism is barbaric and inhuman. It destroys the dignity of human beings and all culture since it proposes only nothingness and meaninglessness in place of God. At best, it’s a form of hedonism.
That may be true, but that is totally incoherent and illogical. It’s stripping the art of its content, meaning and reason for existence (which is to promote belief in God). It can only be appreciated on the most superficial level – and that destroys the art itself.
Again, if atheism is nothing but “a lack of belief in gods” as many atheists have claimed it is to me – then there are no issues to debate. It’s like a group that doesn’t collect stamps having guest speakers to talk about not collecting stamps. There’s nothing to talk about.
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reggieM
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We see some very angry young atheists come here on CAF trying to ridicule God and believers. They take a very arrogant attitude and eventually get banned from the forum for rudness and a lack of sincerity towards the topic. But they’re not forced to join CAF. How can they say that their world is so dominated by religion when they actually go out of their way to join CAF and then be disruptive and hostile? People here are almost always kind to them also – so I really find it hard to buy the notion that atheists are persecuted in that way. Many are really crying out for some help and support – so they draw attention to themselves with hostile attitudes. Then when they are told that this is rude, they claim it’s hostility towards them or we, supposedly, can’t handle their arguments.
A sincere atheist who is seeking answers is a much different person – sadly, somewhat rare to find here. But there are atheists who are open minded and they will admit their need for better knowledge about life.
I’m very glad to hear that and if you preserve that good desire, you will find the right person and the path back to God. I agree that it does take support from others - a good example, and a caring attitude from believers. I agree also that this is sometimes lacking very much and the results are tragic.
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AntiTheist
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You’re simply wrong. Atheism doesn’t “destroy” any of those things. It simply does not accept that gods exist.
For example, I know atheists who volunteer their time tutoring children in the local community; I know atheists who have worked at soup kitchens; and I know atheists who regularly give to charity. None of them have ever articulated to me anything remotely resembling the idea that life lacks meaning or that “hedonism” is their philosophy.
It’s not. Haven’t you ever looked with awe at the Sphynx of Egypt or at Aztec temples or Stonehenge or other works of art from non-Christian civilizations?
The idea that you have to believe the same thing as an artist to appreciate his artwork is utterly silly.
Well, obviously, they can discuss common arguments that theists make for the existence of various gods; they can have discussions about flaws in religious scriptures around the world; they can have discussions about religious laws that various religious groups want to impose on everyone, including those who don’t believe in the religion, etc.
They could talk about how best to deal with being alienated by believers; how best to respond when Jehovah’s Witnesses come to the door; how best to “come out of the atheist closet,” etc.
Geez, look how many ideas I came up with in one minute off the top of my head. What do you mean, “nothing to talk about”?
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reggieM
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Ok, it’s important to be consistent with the meaning of the terms though. Here you’re talking about “atheism”. That’s an idea or mind-set. Atheism is not a person or any group of persons. It’s an idea. As you describe, atheism simply does not accept the existence of gods. As I said, it’s like a person who is not a stamp collector. It’s just the negation of something. Even more than not wanting to do an activity, it’s the belief that something does not exist. So, there’s nothing to that – it’s just a negation. It proposes nothing except a non-existence of something.
Here’s where the point is confused because you shifted the topic. You are now talking about “atheists”, when I was talking about “atheism”. Once you start talking about individual people who I don’t know and who may or may not be “atheists” or whatever they call themselves – then there’s no way to discuss that.
I could take any extreme example – there are neo-Nazis who are really nice people and who care for children and do good deeds and appreciate fine art. But that says nothing about NeoNazism.
Sure, but looking with awe at something is only one part of appreciation of art. Again, to use an extreme example, one can look with awe on the power and order of certain armed forces – say of Soviet Russia. But when we think about what those forces meant at the time and how oppressive they were – that tailors our view of the meaning of what we were in awe of. In the same way, if we consider the human sacrifice offered in Aztec temples – this can give a different view to the meaning of the architecture itself.
So, the atheist who appreciates Chartres cathedral, for example, cannot appreciate what the work was built for and why it has deep meaning today.
This explains the contradiction quite well. As you stated earlier – atheism is simply a non-acceptance of the existence of gods. However, when atheists get together – they would talk about religion and God. So, we’d have the people who don’t do stamp collecting, getting together to talk about why they are not stamp collectors.
It’s difficult to understand how a person is “alienated” from people whose beliefs he attacks, opposes and rejects. Again, as I said – how could atheists who come on CAF claim to be alienated or oppressed by religion when they freely come on to a religious site to talk about their atheism?
It would be like Catholics joining fundamentalist sites to complain how they feel alienated by Baptists. Alienation is part of what comes with a rejection of Bible-fundamentalist belief.
None of those ideas you came up with were discussions about atheism (non-stamp collecting). They were all about God and believers.
Atheism only has meaning because of God and religion. As you mentioned, every topic you came up with was with regard to religion. If you lived in a society that was 100% atheist, with no religious teaching permitted or available – there would be no reason for atheists to get together to talk about religion.
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AntiTheist
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You’re having a very hard time grasping this, aren’t you? I suspect it’s willful ignorance at this point, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and actually give you a thoughtful reply.
Atheists in the US are incarcerated at lower rates than believers, and countries with high populations of non-religious people have lower crime rates, and anecdotally, I know a lot of great people who don’t believe in god, people who are very far from “barbaric” or “inhuman” – that doesn’t “prove” that atheists are better people, or anything silly like that, but it makes it rather hard to swallow the idea that atheism has anything remotely to do with barbarism.
If non-stamp collectors lived in a society where 90% of the population collected stamps, tried to convince everyone else to collect stamps, and tried to impose the “stamp collector’s code” on everyone else through legislation – and if the “stamps” turned out to be metaphysical abstractions that no one had any proof of – then you better believe that non-stamp-collectors would get together and have discussions about the flaws of stamp collecting.
The fact that you think this is somehow a “contradiction” is ludicrous.
Correct.
Well, the only way we can confirm or deny the accusations you are making about “atheism” – that atheism is “barbaric and inhuman” and “destroys human dignity,” etc. – is to look at the behavior of people who don’t believe in god.
Atheists in the US are incarcerated at lower rates than believers, and countries with high populations of non-religious people have lower crime rates, and anecdotally, I know a lot of great people who don’t believe in god, people who are very far from “barbaric” or “inhuman” – that doesn’t “prove” that atheists are better people, or anything silly like that, but it makes it rather hard to swallow the idea that atheism has anything remotely to do with barbarism.
But you agree that it’s part of appreciating art. So there’s no contradiction in an atheist appreciating religious art in this sense.
I’ll try to explain this one more time, and then I’m done. Atheists don’t believe in something that almost everyone else in the culture does – this makes atheists outcasts in a lot of communities. It’s hardly surprising that atheists would want to hang out with other atheists and discuss…surprise, surprise, the one thing they all have in common: reasons for not believing the puerile superstitions that others seem to buy into.
They were discussions about not believing in those things, which is exactly what you would expect non-believers to talk about.
If non-stamp collectors lived in a society where 90% of the population collected stamps, tried to convince everyone else to collect stamps, and tried to impose the “stamp collector’s code” on everyone else through legislation – and if the “stamps” turned out to be metaphysical abstractions that no one had any proof of – then you better believe that non-stamp-collectors would get together and have discussions about the flaws of stamp collecting.
Well, of course. Atheism gets its name from the non-belief in something, so obviously it can only be defined in relation to that thing and if everyone became atheists, then we’d never need to talk about religion (or atheism) ever again.
The fact that you think this is somehow a “contradiction” is ludicrous.
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Nec5
Guest
Hey, let’s have a club celebrating the non-existence of a God we don’t believe in.
None of the atheist friends I have had would ever waste their time with that type of club. Atheism is unfortunately on the rise, but clubs like these are rather dull.
None of the atheist friends I have had would ever waste their time with that type of club. Atheism is unfortunately on the rise, but clubs like these are rather dull.
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AntiTheist
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I actually agree that they’re pretty dull (or at least they seem to be). I’m just pointing out that there’s no logical inconsistency in people who share a trait in common – one that distinguishes them from the rest of the population – wanting to hang out.
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Havard
Guest
I interact with adolescents on a daily basis, it really is becoming “cool” to be hostile towards religion. Not all of these kids I speak to are Atheist, a lot of them claim to be agnostic or “spiritual”. But there’s no question that in this demographic, it’s hip to bash on religion, particularly the Catholic Church, and fundamentalist Christians.
It’s so sad that they readily buy into the idea that Christianity’s legacy is essentially intolerance, hatred and holy wars.
It’s so sad that they readily buy into the idea that Christianity’s legacy is essentially intolerance, hatred and holy wars.
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reggieM
Guest
You claimed that they had a vast number of topics to talk about and now you’re agreeing that a club that celebrates the non-existence of a God we don’t believe in is “pretty dull”.
You’ve confirmed my point and contradicted yourself.
But there’s one thing that I’ll fully agree with you on – I can’t see any reason to continue this discussion, given what I’ve read so far.
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reggieM
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I agree. They don’t know enough about religion or belief in God to be able to adopt a coherent position of non-belief. They don’t know what they’re rejecting.
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AntiTheist
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No. A group can have a lot of topics to talk about and yet still be a group that I, personally, don’t find that interesting.
You have a very weird idea of “contradiction.”
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CesarAugustus
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I’m feel alienated for being Religious
God Bless You !!!
God Bless You !!!
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