Atheist Morality

[reggieM]

Dameedna;

although I answered your question in post #11, I have to ask what is it you are looking for here?

I agree that it would be helpful to know what the question is seeking.

I ask this not out of curiousity primarily, but because I already think I know the answers. Just seeing if anything unusual comes up.

Usually, when you already have an answer then it’s like testing everyone against your pre-determined answer. In that case, it’s better to say what you believe first so we know where you stand.

For my part – it’s in imitation or modelling myself on the apostles, saints and the life of Christ (most especially) – following their example. Beyond that, a desire for heaven. We cannot approach God fully without living a moral life (or striving for that).

“If ye love me, keep my commandments”.

We love Christ because of His goodness. So, we live a moral life because that is what He wants of us, and we become more like Him as we do that.

After that, a Christan moral life has many great benefits that those who choose immorality do not know or care about.

Moral living brings goodness to the mind, heart and spirit – it brings it’s own joy that cannot be found in any other way.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Interesting question. I think I was a moral person before I came to Christ, but now I am more conscious of morality. Before, I would excuse myself if I acted immorally, because it didn’t really seem to matter. But now, I want to be nearer to Christ, and that makes me consider my conscience more. Without religion, I didn’t really believe in sin. I thought I had acted improperly, but not that I had sinned. Without the belief in sin, we can’t receive forgiveness. With the sense of forgiveness, we feel more grateful and closer to God, and want to act in a more moral way in our lives. That’s how I feel anyway.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Dameedna, how is it you want someone to answer this question? The way you would like? These people are simply saying that they love and believe in God, in Jesus Christ, they trust in him, and they don’t want to offend Him, so they live a righteous life. What else are you looking for here?

 

[Chancellare]

Dameedna, how is it you want someone to answer this question? The way you would like? These people are simply saying that they love and believe in God, in Jesus Christ, they trust in him, and they don’t want to offend Him, so they live a righteous life. What else are you looking for here?

There are people out there who believe that we can be good on our own volition without the prodding of a supreme being. They assume that all good and evil are just conventions that arise in nature. And they would like to test others who believe in God as the source of all goodness.
The problem with this thinking is that they fail to account for the fact that in a universe governed by natural laws, the existence of a Law Giver cannot be taken out of the equation.

 

[abucs]

I think Chancellare hits the nail on the head for me.
It’s not why do i decide to DO this or to DO that ? … this is partly an agnostic way to look at the world. This sees morality as an emergent trait and classification of behaviour depending on a mix of genes and environment acting in a material world governed by only matter and accidental laws.

For me it’s why do i decide to BE a certain BEING. God as the fundamental base of reality transcends and is more fundamental than classified emergent traits of behaviour. Being moral is to be in communion with God who is the ultimate reality when you strip away our material creation.

The universe is created in order to facilitate us in DECIDING how to BE. Viewed in this way being moral is being in touch with a fundamental reality - the fundamental reality. BEING is existance, non-being is non-existance, or to follow it through completely, moral is to be, immoral is to not be.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Anything that is not of God, of Jesus Christ is no interest to me, since He is the center of the universe and everything in it, so I cannot answer this question thinking there was no God and how I am suppose to act?

 

[Dameedna]

Ooop…, I didn’t meant to leave this thread as long as I did, but I wanted to wait till it died, and see what comments were made. No it wasn’t a test. Yes there was a point for me.

I will reply to the posts in turn, ty for replying

 

[Dameedna]

Dameedna;

although I answered your question in post #11, I have to ask what is it you are looking for here?

An honest answer.

Why do you behave morally?

 

[Dameedna]

I would say it boils down to faith, and love.

I choose to behave morally because I have faith and believe that it is pleasing to God. I choose to love others and behave in ways that please Him, because I love Him

So you behave with morality, because you believe in God?

Because , with your belief in God, you understand he wants you to behave in a certain way?

So you morality, comes down to a belief in god?

 

[Dameedna]

Interesting question. I think I was a moral person before I came to Christ, but now I am more conscious of morality.

So you had a moral code, but you faith, or belief in God gave it meaning?

How did you know/believe you were a moral person before, and what makes you think you are now?

I’m not challenging, I’m asking. I liked your answer, it was one of the “Gems” I was looking for

cheers

 

[Dameedna]

There are people out there who believe that we can be good on our own volition without the prodding of a supreme being. They assume that all good and evil are just conventions that arise in nature. And they would like to test others who believe in God as the source of all goodness.

Plenty out there like that.

The problem with this thinking is that they fail to account for the fact that in a universe governed by natural laws, the existence of a Law Giver cannot be taken out of the equation.

Nor, can this law-giver, ever be accounted for or described in any factual way.

I’m not asking you why you have a rational belief in a deity.

I’m asking you why, YOU choose morality.

 

[Dameedna]

Morality supports the practices that take into care the way I wish to be approached and considered by others and to expect this from others it is how I present myself to others. It is to reflect self-respect as all moral values in order to justify the return of said respect and values from others, but having a proper knowledge of God, I know most importantly of all it is to reflect myself in a manner as befitting a creation of God as closely as humanly possible.

So you behave morally, because you believe in God, and want to lead by example, God’s laws?

 

[Dameedna]

I too asked this question to myself. But in order to avoid reference to my own moral standards, I asked my son why he chose to stay out of trouble in school and among his friends and why he did not do drugs or bum around.

His answer was simple: “Ow Dad, I know you love me so how can I disobey you who worked hard to provide all I have?”

Stripped of religion, man (or any organism for that matter) will follow whomever shows him the way. In the same way, suppose my son grew up in a gangland and was left idolizing his gang leader instead of me, I suppose he will say the same thing of his leader or whomever he follows. This is the same as a pack of wolves or a school of fish.

So, you morality is determined by some-one who “shows” you the way?

Who is this some-one? Where does it come from?

 

[4Squarebaby]

So, you morality is determined by some-one who “shows” you the way?

Who is this some-one? Where does it come from?

That someone will be the person(s) who you accept the authority of. It starts with parents as we age many reject their parents, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. That person may be the alpha of the peer group you aspire to. He may be a student Bible study leader, hew might be an OG leader of the local street gang.

Many because of their physical power or seductive personalities can easily operate outside of the generally accepted “good” morality. Most however accept what the greater society thinks is good rether then have to live life in constant struggle against their neighbors.

 

[Dameedna]

I agree that it would be helpful to know what the question is seeking.

ahh…see the problem with that, as soon as you know what I’m seeking, you will structure your answer around the “goal” rather than the question.

It doesn’t matter what I’m seeking, what matters is your answer, however I may take it

Usually, when you already have an answer then it’s like testing everyone against your pre-determined answer.

I know, it leaves you open to ridicule, and the questionner’s true agenda. I will admit, I’m tempted to argue my views with those here, BUT, my question was actually an honest one. I really want to know, because I’ve heard it all before, and it seems to come down to the same answers. I was looking for the Gem in the rough…the person who could describe their faith, in a way that made me think.

I may have found it in this thread and I’m touched and thoughtful about this persons comments, but please continue to dig deeper and respond.

Cheers

 

[Dameedna]

That someone will be the person(s) who you accept the authority of. It starts with parents as we age many reject their parents, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. That person may be the alpha of the peer group you aspire to. He may be a student Bible study leader, hew might be an OG leader of the local street gang.

Many because of their physical power or seductive personalities can easily operate outside of the generally accepted “good” morality. Most however accept what the greater society thinks is good rether then have to live life in constant struggle against their neighbors.

My parents were alway’s my teachers and moral guidance. I decided at some point in time they were wrong about certain ideas.

I agree, that the “teacher” is the first place, but what makes the student decide the teacher is wrong?

There are many christians who converted because their former “teacher”/“parent”/“company”/“friends” were wrong.

I agree it’s a start. Our morality is defined by our Authority figures. I’m not so interested in the followers, I’m curios about those that manged to break free of it and how they did it, what made them choose…right or wrong.

I just want honest answers from individuals(TY for you response btw). It’s such a simple question…but so hard to anwser honestly.

For the record, I’m not entirely sure how to anwer the question either.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So you had a moral code, but you faith, or belief in God gave it meaning?

How did you know/believe you were a moral person before, and what makes you think you are now?

I’m not challenging, I’m asking. I liked your answer, it was one of the “Gems” I was looking for

cheers

I guess I have always believed in God (Goodness) and Evil on some level. But reading the Bible, and practicing prayer, experiencing worship with other people has made me more conscious of morality (definition: The ability to distinguish good and evil or right and wrong, right or good conduct).

There were real evil spirits that Jesus expelled from people when He was alive, and then told them “Your sins are forgiven”. Paul explained that when we accept Christ into our hearts, we no longer want the old kind of life we were living, but are born to a new relationship to God. It’s hard to explain unless you experience it. A kind of peace and sense of knowing what is right and wrong just happens. I just wish more people would come to Christ and see what occurs in their lives.

 

[reggieM]

ahh…see the problem with that, as soon as you know what I’m seeking, you will structure your answer around the “goal” rather than the question.

On the contrary – I will try to help you find what you’re seeking.

It doesn’t matter what I’m seeking, what matters is your answer, however I may take it

It does matter what you’re seeking because that is the purpose for asking a question. If you disguise your purpose then that is insincerity and deception.

I know, it leaves you open to ridicule, and the questionner’s true agenda. I will admit, I’m tempted to argue my views with those here, BUT, my question was actually an honest one.

I hate to judge it too quickly but it seems the opposite of an honest question. You are concealing knowledge as well as your intention. How can you expect sincerity from one side of the discussion when you will not reply in kind? It’s a question of trust, and to ask a question with an agenda that is hidden is a breakdown of trust.
I will answer questions from people who are sincerely seeking an answer. They will explain what they’re looking for – where their knowledge is lacking.

You, apparently, believe you already have knowledge and you’re asking something to entrap people.

Be upfront and explain what you mean. That is basic honesty as I see it.

I really want to know, because I’ve heard it all before,

I find that quite arrogant and impossible to believe. What Catholic spiritual writers have you read? If you’ve “heard it all”, then you’ve heard every explanation of the Catholic Faith that has ever been written and there are more than can fill a lifetime of study.

If you’re truly seeking something that goes beyond your own limited knowledge (I do not accept that you know it all), you should apply yourself to studying the classics of Catholic spiritual literature.

If you know more than others, then you should try to share and teach what you know, without the games and trickmanship.

 

[Chancellare]

So, you morality is determined by some-one who “shows” you the way?

Who is this some-one? Where does it come from?

Determined initially by my first teachers: my parents. I could have chosen other people but I guess it was a nice choice after all. I could have disagreed with them if I thought they were wrong but I did not find anything wrong.
I did not ask them who taught them but I suspect their parents did.

 

[Dameedna]

It does matter what you’re seeking because that is the purpose for asking a question. If you disguise your purpose then that is insincerity and deception.

I have not disguised my purpose at all. My question is what I’m actually seeking. How could it be anything else? I would like to know, why people choose to behave morally.

I hate to judge it too quickly but it seems the opposite of an honest question. You are concealing knowledge as well as your intention.

If you hate to judge too quickly, then why are you doing it?

How can you expect sincerity from one side of the discussion when you will not reply in kind?

This is not actually a discussion. It’s a question. If some-one would like to ask me a question, I will also answer, but if you are looking for a hidden agenda that isn’t there, then there’s nothing I can actually do about that, and I have no answer for you other than the one I’ve already given

I will answer questions from people who are sincerely seeking an answer. They will explain what they’re looking for – where their knowledge is lacking.

I wasn’t asking for any specific knowlege. Again, I was asking *people/] why they choose to be moral.

You, apparently, believe you already have knowledge and you’re asking something to entrap people.

Such harsh judgements you are making about me. I think I’m more knowlegable than others, and I’m out to entrap people??That’s not a very nice assumption to make about another person.

Be upfront and explain what you mean. That is basic honesty as I see it.

And now I’m apparently dishonest. I have already asked my question, what more can I do.

I find that quite arrogant and impossible to believe.

I have heard a lot of reasonings as to why people choose to be moral, though I should have said many, rather than All.

As I said, I am curious as to why people choose to attempt to behave morally. I suspect I will have heard the answers before, but I do ask this from time to time because occasionally I hear something I haven’t heard before.

If you want an agenda, that is it(which I already explained in another post). I want to hear something I haven’t heard before, because a persons decision to behave morally is something that I’m simply interested in.

If you don’t want to answer my question, that is fine, but would you please be able to just allow those that DO want to answer, to actually do so without making judgments about me, assumptions(negative ones) about my intentions and turning my thread into an argument or a debate?

Thanks to those who have answered *