Atheist preparing to own the label

[openmind77]

…I finally determined that I was no longer a believer… Hit me with whatever questions you feel like asking me…

I am curious - how would you react if the Christ Returned to the world in the next few years? (and it is not the end of world - I personally don’t believe it will be)

Will you refuse to believe that he is the Christ, assuming he looks like a normal human? If he performed many miracles, would you say they are all tricks or mass hysteria? (in case the miracles are public and visible to many)

I ask because many atheists are so committed to their non-belief, that atheism is almost like religion that needs to be defended at all costs. Are you that kind of ‘committed’ atheist?

 

[Pattylt]

May I answer this? Well, I’m kinda doing it anyway…

Many atheists, if they truly knew this was Christ, would believe, as would I. I agree that some atheists are so committed to atheism that they would still deny it but most atheists are committed to just knowing which is true…is there a God or not!

If He returned and was performing visible real miracles that assured us He was who He claimed, most would be happy to know and believe. Our problem is the current state of the evidence, not just an obstinate determination to not believe.

 

[FiveLinden]

I think miracles, that is, things that could not possibly have an explanation from natural phenomena, are repeated and can be done in conditions that exclude the potential for trickery (such as supervision by state magicians) would go a long way to convincing atheists of the existence of a supernatural power. But such miracles would not identify the performer as a god, or the Christian God, or one of the Trinity. I know of no such miracles by the way. I have always found the things people on CAF claim as modern miracles to be most unimpressive compared to Biblical miracles. Why are modern miracles confined to things like spontaneous remission from cancer (something that happens anyway). Why can’t we have some seas parting, or rotting corpses reviving, or food for the hungry appearing? Or walking on water?

 

[openmind77]

Why can’t we have some seas parting, or rotting corpses reviving, or food for the hungry appearing? Or walking on water?

I doubt such things like ‘seas parting’ will happen nor under ‘controlled’ conditions. The miracles will mainly be healings of illnesses, possibly of thousands of people.

How about personal experience? Like you can ‘feel’ the energy or ‘hear’ him in your head? Is that sort of personal experience convincing enough?

 

[FiveLinden]

How about personal experience? Like you can ‘feel’ the energy or ‘hear’ him in your head? Is that sort of personal experience convincing enough?

Sorry no, not at all. These are also reported by members of every other religion, and use about every new-age believer.

 

[openmind77]

Sorry no, not at all. These are also reported by members of every other religion, and use about every new-age believer.

I was not speaking about other people’s reports. I was speaking of your own personal experience - meaning something you (yourself) saw or heard. I often find that dedicated, committed atheists/skeptics don’t believe their own eyes/ears.

 

[FiveLinden]

No, can’t think of any experiences of any god or similar talking to me.

 

[openmind77]

No, can’t think of any experiences of any god or similar talking to me.

It could happen when the Christ returns. Hopefully atheists don’t shrug it off as some sort of hallucination, but many of them will.

 

[Pattylt]

t could happen when the Christ returns. Hopefully atheists don’t shrug it off as some sort of hallucination, but many of them will.

What would happen if the atheists don’t shrug it off but many Christians do? Sorry, but I get a bit tired of someone telling me I’m too obstinate to accept something like this. This would be the evidence that atheists are looking for and you assume we’d reject it? I think it’s every bit as likely that many Christians would reject Him as atheists.

 

[jack63]

If He returned and was performing visible real miracles that assured us He was who He claimed, most would be happy to know and believe. Our problem is the current state of the evidence, not just an obstinate determination to not believe.

I wondering if you’ve ever Nietzsche’s Thus Spoke Zarathustra? If so, what do you think? He takes a completely different view of the miracles of Jesus. I read it with another source to interpret what Nietzsche was saying because it is written to be difficult to read.

One of Nietzsche’s most interesting points related miraculous healings, and it got me thinking about my faith related to the miracles of Jesus. The story is about Zarathustra meeting a hunchback on bridge who wants to be healed. Basically Zarathustra could heal him but won’t.

The point is “Why did Jesus heal?” Perhaps Nietzsche is half-right (and half-wrong). I sometimes think christianity presents the healings and miracles of Jesus incorrectly. Perhaps the healings of Jesus are there to help people learn on their spiritual journey rather than to convince the world Jesus has special powers. A good example is the healing of the cripple at the pool of Bethesda where Jesus asks the cripple if he wants to be well.

An excerpt from thus spoke Zarathustra…

When one taketh his hump from the hunchback, then doth one take from him his spirit—so do the people teach. And when one giveth the blind man eyes, then doth he see too many bad things on the earth: so that he curseth him who healed him. He, however, who maketh the lame man run, inflicteth upon him the greatest injury; for hardly can he run, when his vices run away with him—so do the people teach concerning cripples. And why should not Zarathustra also learn from the people, when the people learn from Zarathustra?

http://www.philosophy-index.com/nietzsche/thus-spake-zarathurstra/xlii.php

 

[Pattylt]

No, I’ve never read him. Not sure I want to tackle philosophical books…they just seem to go over my head!

On Jesus’ miracles, I’ve always taken them to be examples of what the Kingdom ig God will be like. There will be no hunger so Jesus feeds the thousands. There will be no illnesses so Jesus heals the sick. There will be no death so Jesus raises a dead man.

The miracles weren’t to prove who he is but to show what they are waiting for. It’s just my sense of the miracles and I’m certainly not a theologian! It just seemed to me to be more of the point of all of them.

I’ve thought about trying to learn philosophy and if I do, I certainly will have to include Nietzsche. Until I have some philosophical knowledge under my belt, I’ll avoid him for now.

 

[Calliope]

Let us know if your family does ask questions or reacts when they find out.

My mother was bothered that I didn’t have my children baptized, but no one seems to much care that I am an atheist. I don’t make a thing out of it and neither do they. They are all practicing Catholics.

 

[jack63]

I’ve thought about trying to learn philosophy and if I do, I certainly will have to include Nietzsche. Until I have some philosophical knowledge under my belt, I’ll avoid him for now.

Oh…I’d just dive right in. I suppose I had some philosophy in College, but not all that much. I don’t know if this stuff made much difference though…Seriously, just dive right in! Based on all of your posts here I think you might get a lot out if it. Perhaps start with Nietzsche’s Beyond Good and Evil. It is a much easier read and Thus spoke Zarathustra builds on Beyond Good and Evil.

On Jesus’ miracles, I’ve always taken them to be examples of what the Kingdom ig God will be like. There will be no hunger so Jesus feeds the thousands. There will be no illnesses so Jesus heals the sick. There will be no death so Jesus raises a dead man.

The miracles weren’t to prove who he is but to show what they are waiting for. It’s just my sense of the miracles and I’m certainly not a theologian! It just seemed to me to be more of the point of all of them.

If this is what I thought, I’d struggle deeply with faith. It’s not how I see it at all. I’m certainly not saying any of your views are wrong, it’s just not how I see it.

 

[steve-b]

For context: A good chunk of the people in my life are some form of believer. I come from a significantly Catholic background (homeschooled until high school, attended Catholic high school, went to a secular college but hewed pretty close to the Newman Center my entire time when I was there.) I finally determined that I was no longer a believer at the age of 26. Because of how I was raised and how relatively late in life I changed(relative to when I hear most people in my age group who turn atheist change), a LOT of the significant relationships in my life are Catholic or at least some form of Christian. I’ve told some of these people (immediate family, one or two close friends) about my deconversion but most of the time I have just let people assume that things are still the same with me without correcting them just because it has been easier. I am looking to change that and be more open about where I am. But, I feel the need to prepare myself for the questions that might pop up when people start finding out. So this is mainly a request for a practice run if anyone is up for it.

Hit me with whatever questions you feel like asking me and my hope is that I can practice answering in a way that is reasonable and not hurtful, so that when these conversations pop up in real life, I’ll already be ready with an answer that helps people understand why I am where I am without me being too brusque or hurtful.

Just thinking out loud, and provided you haven’t already answered these points

If asked, How would you address the following?

Jesus was teaching His disciples about the Eucharist. As He had been their teacher for the time they were with Him in all they were to believe,. They’d seen His miracles. Yet they (those disciples, not the 12) got into a disagreement among themselves, over Jesus in general, and what He just taught them in particular, and they walked away from Him never to return. Story highly condensed HERE

Q’s:​

Why did Jesus not go after them? Yes He knew in advance they would leave… yet He still gave the teaching

Why didn’t He get into a back and forth one on one with them to further address their issues and possibly change their view?

Why did He let them go without any attempt to challenge their decision to go?

 

[openmind77]

openmind77:

t could happen when the Christ returns. Hopefully atheists don’t shrug it off as some sort of hallucination, but many of them will.

What would happen if the atheists don’t shrug it off but many Christians do? Sorry, but I get a bit tired of someone telling me I’m too obstinate to accept something like this. This would be the evidence that atheists are looking for and you assume we’d reject it? I think it’s every bit as likely that many Christians would reject Him as atheists.

You are quite right. Many Christians will also reject him because he may not return in exactly the same way that they expect him to. For instance, many think that he will come as some sort of gigantic figure riding in the clouds. I believe he will look like a regular person (although with powers to perform miracles etc) and so he won’t come flying in the sky. So many Christians will indeed reject him.

 

[ruthr]

Interesting thread. I actually grew up atheist, became a “born again” evangelical in my 20s, and made my way to the Catholic Church at age 60. Every person needs to, in some way, detach from their upbringing and ask honest questions about the way they were raised. Thanks for your genuine concerns.

It’s easy to get emotional about religion and we need to detach from that as well. But the main thing is, in addition to honesty, to answer with love and empathy to the other person. Wouldn’t you agree that, atheist or not, love is the highest human value? Humans need HOPE and LOVE, and this doesn’t have to mean lying to one another. We also need FAITH, not necessarily in God, but, for instance, in marriage, so that we don’t have to spend a lot of time worrying about the “what ifs.” You need a certain amount of faith just to get up in the morning and plan your day.

I’m glad that you don’t seem like a bitter type of atheist. If you anticipate that others will become bitter towards you, just focus on love and honesty. (I like the Christian concept of “conquering with love.”) You might think about writing down statements that they make that trouble you and then later, in a detached way, mull over them to determine what is true and what is false. You might actually be doing your relatives a favor by challenging them to think more clearly.

I’d be interested in knowing where you think love comes from, since it is invisible. Don’t things exist that are invisible, like the wind? Why does something exist instead of nothing? Where does beauty come from, and the amazing patterns and designs of nature? Also, do you believe in free will?

Wishing you the best.

 

[FiveLinden]

The return of Jesus as predicted in the gospel would certainly make me a believer, but not necessarily in Christianity. Islam also holds that Jesus is the Messiah and will return as judge at the end. It would also not of itself change my mind about how a just and good and loving God could allow innocents to suffer, especially non-human innocents for whom there is no eternal life. I would also remain open to the possibility that the entity appearing to be Jesus returning was in fact someone else purporting to be Jesus.