Atheist view of hell

[tonyrey]

“if” is an irrational foundation for any proposition and amounts to wishful thinking in a dreamworld…

If it is unsubstantiated it is worthless.

I already know that I don’t and will never have such an ability, so speaking of logic and reality, indeed I don’t have such ability and never will, speaking of what I do if I had it, for the sake of argument, I answered.

Which takes us nowhere!

The whole OP is built on IF, atheists don’t believe in Hell, so how their vision of it would be, for the sake of argument, we responded. IF is argumentative, and doesn’t necessarily means accepting something as reality.

The OP is based on the fact that Hell (and God) don’t exist as far as atheists are concerned.

So IF I were a god, I would do this, for some arguments that may be mentioned, it’s by the same logic. .

Fair enough but it doesn’t take you anywhere unless you explain **how **you would create an ideal world.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not here for long debates, just answering the original post, and not to be out of topic on evolution or atheists morality which I don’t see how atheists morality is related to the arguments of a creator or many being evil, suffering and Hell, which supposingly existed before any atheist, I hope some other person might answer you, be well.

I don’t see how an atheist’s morality has any rational foundation at all. If we exist by chance “rights” are merely a human convention criminals can safely ignore - if they are clever enough to avoid detection. If only matter exists nothing matters!

Thanks for the chat.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Let’s just look at TWO consecutive posts of yours.

Thereby implying that you know how to create a better universe than the one we inhabit…

Making piecemeal improvements is a vastly different proposition from creating an entire biosphere in which there are no diseases, disasters and deformities. It is highly significant that no one has ever produced a feasible blueprint of a universe superior to the one we inhabit…

You cannot even stay consistent for two short posts. You questioned our ability to create a BETTER universe than the one which exists. You received an answer. And instead of admitting that we CAN and DO create a better universe, you try to change the subject. Vintage “tony”.

Actually such “blueprints” have been presented several times. And it does not even require “omnipotence”.

That is not surprising because they have no vision of anything except total oblivion in which everything disappears without leaving any trace of its existence!

Reality is much better than the childish and infantile concept of eternal torture. Of course we CAN visualize the existence of a better reality, without diseases, deformities and disasters, which all come from an inferior “design”. But not an eternal “prison” with heartless inquisitors, whose only pleasure comes from torturing others.

 

[reggieM]

A man making void the law of Moses, dies without any mercy one the word of two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserves worse punishments, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has esteemed the blood of the covenant unclean, through which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who has said: Vengeance is mine, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:28

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

A man making void the law of Moses, dies without any mercy one the word of two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserves worse punishments, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has esteemed the blood of the covenant unclean, through which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who has said: Vengeance is mine, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:28

Is this supposed to be a description of the “loving” God with infinite mercy? Seems like the old vengeful tyrant with no concept of justice either. Also you argue for the Old Covenant. Shall we stone the adulterers?

 

[reggieM]

Is this supposed to be a description of the “loving” God with infinite mercy?

Infinite mercy. If I had a10 million dollars I wanted to give away, does that mean you are now a wealthy man?

Seems like the old vengeful tyrant with no concept of justice either.

Of course, it depends on what you mean by justice. You’d have to demonstrate some standard of justice by which we could compare with God’s. Thus far, from what I’ve seen in your conversation, you don’t seem to have a higher standard of justice than God does and you don’t seem to be a morally perfect person either, but I’m open to you trying to convince me that you are more morally perfect and most just than God is.

Also you argue for the Old Covenant. Shall we stone the adulterers?

You’re right to search for something in the Bible in order to understand the quote I provided. So, yes - you should continue on that path. Seek to understand what St. Paul was saying through a comprehensive understanding of Scripture. The Catholic Church gives us that understanding.

In this case, when considering what unrepentant adulterers will face given the temporal punishments of the Old Testament, * How much more, do you think he deserves worse punishments …* in eternity, now that Jesus Christ has been revealed?

So, it’s good you’re seeking to discuss theology here. It does take some familiarity with the texts and Sacred Tradition handed down from Jesus to the Catholic Church though. I hope you’re working on improving your knowledge in that area.

 

[tonyrey]

Let’s just look at TWO consecutive posts of yours.

Thereby implying that you know how to create a better universe than the one we inhabit…
Making piecemeal improvements is a vastly different proposition from creating an entire biosphere in which there are no diseases, disasters and deformities. It is highly significant that no one has ever produced a feasible blueprint of a universe superior to the one we inhabit…

You cannot even stay consistent for two short posts. You questioned our ability to create a BETTER universe than the one which exists. You received an answer. And instead of admitting that we CAN and DO create a better universe, you try to change the subject. Vintage “tony”.

An evasion of the issue! No one has created or explained how to create an entire biosphere in which there are no diseases, disasters and deformities. The issue is whether this is a hell on earth as atheists imply when in fact they cannot produce a superior alternative from start to finish.

You cannot even stay consistent for two short posts. You questioned our ability to create a BETTER universe than the one which exists. You received an answer. And instead of admitting that we CAN and DO create a better universe, you try to change the subject. Vintage “tony”.

Actually such “blueprints” have been presented several times. And it does not even require “omnipotence”.

Where precisely are these "blueprints? Unsubstantiated assertions are worthless…

Reality is much better than the childish and infantile concept of eternal torture. Of course we CAN visualize the existence of a better reality, without diseases, deformities and disasters, which all come from an inferior “design”. But not an eternal “prison” with heartless inquisitors, whose only pleasure comes from torturing others.

You can fallen into the trap! "To visualize the existence of a better reality, without diseases, deformities and disasters, which all come from an inferior “design” is a vastly different proposition from producing a detailed blueprint with full details of a superior alternative. Where is it? Unsubstantiated assertions are worthless…

 

[tonyrey]

…"To visualize the existence of a better reality, without diseases, deformities and disasters, which all come from an inferior “design” is a vastly different proposition from producing a detailed blueprint with full details of a superior alternative. Where is it? Unsubstantiated assertions are worthless…

As the days and weeks go by it becomes more and more evident that the notion of “an earthly paradise” is a desperate attempt to evade the conclusion that evil in all its forms is inevitable. In fact one English philosopher, C.E.M. Joad, became a Christian because he realised that there is no natural explanation for the **diabolical **evil in this world where we have a foretaste of hell…

 

[Russell_SA]

Hello,

When Christians tell atheists that hell is real because God is so very holy, I think they aren’t using the proper line of explanation. If someone in Africa shot someone dressed up as a monkey, thinking he was merely hunting, would he be guilty of murder? It doesn’t seem right to point to God as the reason for hell without taking into account the conscience. What I want to find out on this thread is what atheists think about conscience and the idea of an eternal punishment.

Consciousness, conscience, choice, etc. are all emergent properties of a functional brain. I have yet to come across where these concepts manifest anywhere else. So, to me, they are just an emergent property of a higher intelligent functioning brain. Dolphins, dogs, elephants, parrots, etc all exhibit these qualities. The problem of good and bad and moral absolutes are not really a problem for me since I am a methodological naturalist. Since there is no way, yet to determine the difference between the supernatural as a real thing or an imagined thing, it is not allowed as part of the explanation or solution to any question yet. Also, just because I can imagine something with qualities to solve a problem in reality I have thought of or observed, does not mean my imagined solution actually exists to solve that problem. It’s exactly no different than villagers inventing a volcano god to appease to solve their volcano problem.

One culture’s idea of supernatural eternal punishment does not come across my mind unless I am talking to that culture. It’s not something I am at all worried about just as catholics are not at all worried about other religious version of punishment as well. But the idea of eternal punishment for limited crimes, is not punishment, its torture. Punishment is to imply correction to the bad behavior over a limited time frame. Eternal punishment is torture since the person can eventually come to change their bad behavior but are still being tortured. It’s the most morally repugnant idea ever and any being associated with implementing and creating that is the most evil entity of our reality.

 

[Vonsalza]

Punishment is to imply correction to the bad behavior over a limited time frame.

Not really. Per Oxford:
The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.

No “correction” or “time frame” mentioned…

It’s the most morally repugnant idea ever and any being associated with implementing and creating that is the most evil entity of our reality.

I would imagine that if the entity were truly evil, they probably wouldn’t have made the avoidance of that punishment an option available to everyone.

 

[Russell_SA]

Not really. Per Oxford:
The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.

No “correction” or “time frame” mentioned…

I would imagine that if the entity were truly evil, they probably wouldn’t have made the avoidance of that punishment an option available to everyone.

That’s a fine definition you use, but I’ll stick with what I presented.

As to avoiding the punishment, that is the equivalent of pointing a loaded gun at someone’s head and telling them their actions will force you pull the trigger or not. Oh and the gun to the head never goes away for eternity. Go threaten that to your children, go run that experiment, and see if we don’t lock you up for as long as legally possible. If you can’t see why that’s a horrible thing to threaten someone with, you really don’t take your religion or your deity morally seriously and just want to appease the biggest most powerful bully in the room. Sorry, but those entities have to always be stood up to regardless of your power to actually change their position.

 

[Vonsalza]

That’s a fine definition you use, but I’ll stick with what I presented.

And I’ll stick with Oxford.

 

[tonyrey]

That’s a fine definition you use, but I’ll stick with what I presented.

As to avoiding the punishment, that is the equivalent of pointing a loaded gun at someone’s head and telling them their actions will force you pull the trigger or not. Oh and the gun to the head never goes away for eternity. Go threaten that to your children, go run that experiment, and see if we don’t lock you up for as long as legally possible. If you can’t see why that’s a horrible thing to threaten someone with, you really don’t take your religion or your deity morally seriously and just want to appease the biggest most powerful bully in the room. Sorry, but those entities have to always be stood up to regardless of your power to actually change their position.

The assumption that the punishment is arbitrarily inflicted by God is arbitrary! There is abundant evidence that our vices and defects incur their own punishment. If we make ourselves detestable we inevitably become detested, shunned and isolated.

 

[Bradski]

The assumption that the punishment is arbitrarily inflicted by God is arbitrary! There is abundant evidence that our vices and defects incur their own punishment. If we make ourselves detestable we inevitably become detested, shunned and isolated.

You’ve been reading up on evolutionary psychology haven’t you, Tony. Well done.

 

[tonyrey]

The assumption that the punishment is arbitrarily inflicted by God is arbitrary! There is abundant evidence that our vices and defects incur their own punishment. If we make ourselves detestable we inevitably become detested, shunned and isolated.

Sorry to disappoint you, Brad, but I know nothing about evolutionary psychology. It’s common sense that negative behaviour has negative effects. If we make ourselves detestable we’ll be detested. If we reject God we isolate ourselves in a meaningless universe. It’s as simple as that!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sorry to disappoint you, Brad, but I know nothing about evolutionary psychology. It’s common sense that negative behaviour has negative effects. If we make ourselves detestable we’ll be detested. If we reject God we isolate ourselves in a meaningless universe. It’s as simple as that!

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks, Christine. The “atheist view of hell” is based on the reality of negative behaviour in this world for which there is no rational explanation. We make ourselves and others unhappy through no fault of our own because we are supposedly the products of forces beyond our control. There is hell on earth as the result of Chance and Necessity. It is the bleakest view of life imaginable and often drives people to commit suicide - like a friend of mine who lost her faith in God.

By their fruits you shall know them…

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Sorry to disappoint you, Brad, but I know nothing about evolutionary psychology.

Nice admission.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Sorry to disappoint you, Brad, but I know nothing about evolutionary psychology.

Nice admission.

 

[tonyrey]

Nice admission.

A more important fact is that negative behaviour has negative effects. If we make ourselves detestable we’ll be detested. If we reject God we isolate ourselves in a meaningless universe. It’s as simple as that!