Atheists and supposed contradictions in Scripture

[Nick9]

hi, I have been debating with atheists on Youtube and one or them keeps firing apparent biblical contradictions at me. For example, Jesus says that belief is necessary for salvation, yet we believe that those who have never heard of Jesus can be saved by obeying their conscience (see Vatican II: Lumen Gentium, n.16, and Gaudium et Spes, n.22). He also says the same about baptism.

Anyone got an angle on these questions?

Also, is there any point in discussing the faith with atheists, especially those who were once Christians? The trouble is that there are some militant ones on Youtube and other Christians may be worried by their arguments. This seems to justify a response.



thanks,

Nick

 

[Nita]

I’m assuming the atheist doesn’t accept the Church teaching as given in Lumen Gentium and Gaudium et spes.

The following are some points I might make. Don’t know if they’ll do any good or not.

1. Re belief in Jesus:
   Yes, Jesus did say we must believe in Him and so it is true. However, He didn’t say WHEN in our life this must occur. It’s very possible it can occur in the last split second of our earthly life - in silence and unnoticeable to any present.
2. Re water baptism:
   Scripture does say we should be baptized - and so all who know this should be baptized. But it doesn’t say that ONLY those baptized by water will be allowed in heaven.

I don’t know whether there’s much point in discussing with atheists or not. I’d say pray, pray, pray. Ask God if this is something He wants you to do. If it is, ask Him to guide you in choosing the ones with whom you should debate/discuss. And don’t be concerned if you never see any results. Conversion can take place years later. And it will probably be because of some little (in your eyes) loving thing you said - rather than a well documented and logical argument!

Nita

 

[Nick9]

thanks Nita for your response.

the atheists don’t accept Church teaching or biblical teaching, but just seem intent on “proving” it illogical. I don’t see any conversions from the atheists but it may help some wavering Christians.

prayer is a good idea!



Nick

 

[AgnosTheist]

1. Re belief in Jesus:
   Yes, Jesus did say we must believe in Him and so it is true. However, He didn’t say WHEN in our life this must occur. It’s very possible it can occur in the last split second of our earthly life - in silence and unnoticeable to any present.

You totally missed the core element of ‘those who have never heard of Jesus’. How can there be a last split second belief there? Belief in what? Certainly not in Jesus.

 

[Nick9]

thanks AgnosTheist,

my angle on that one is to look at the audience that Jesus and Paul, etc, were speaking to, i.e. disciples who were to go and spread the Gospel. It was the people who such disciples were to preach to who had to believe in order to be saved. Those who never heard the Gospel were not being referred to, therefore. I used Romans 2:14, 15 for those who had never heard of the Gospel.

Is this a good argument, anyone? Anymore ideas?

Nick

 

[Nita]

You totally missed the core element of ‘those who have never heard of Jesus’. How can there be a last split second belief there? Belief in what? Certainly not in Jesus.

Jesus Himself can appear to them in a vision. I feel confident in saying this because I was present when my father was dying - and Our Lord appeared to him. We could not see Jesus, but my father said he was seeing Him. All Mom and I had noticed was that he kept staring into one corner of the room. (From reading, I know similar visions have been granted to others also.)

The power of Jesus’ presence could work instantly in a soul that desired only goodness and truth. Jesus could grant an infused, instantaneous knowledge of who He is. Of course, the person still has to make the choice to believe or not; to accept or reject all that belief entails. It’s the same choice you (and all the rest of us) have to make when you hear the truths about Jesus.

Nita

 

[Della]

The teaching of the Church, supported by Scripture is (from the CCC):

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

St. Paul claimed that no man has an excuse before God because he has given us natural law and a portion of grace to every person. It therefore follows that those who never heard of Christ or the Church can be saved by acting on the grace God gave them because of the redemptive sacrifice of Christ which opened heaven to all peoples.

St. Peter too told us that all who seek God and desire to serve him are acceptable to him.

This does not preclude evangelization because it is far better for everyone to know Christ and be full members in his Church, receiving the graces of the Sacraments. We are bound to do what we know is right–being fully one with Christ and his Church if we know to do that.

But, God is not bound by this. He may save whomever he pleases. But, once again, this does not let us off the hook or give us the right to presume upon his mercy by not doing what we know we ought to.

As to contradictions, the Bible and Sacred Tradition from which it came have to be seen as a whole–like a 3 dimensional object rather than a 2 dimensional sheet of paper. The truth is many sided, like a 3 dimensional object, but it is of a whole and cannot be understood by dissecting it into disparate pieces.

I love the line from Lord of the Rings in which Gandalf tells Saruman, “He who breaks a thing to understand it has left the path of wisdom.” And wisdom, not mere “facts” are what is needed to embrace all that is real, not merely that which we can understand on the strictly flat plain of human reasoning alone.

 

[Nick9]

thanks Della,

that is a brilliant answer.



Nick

 

[AgnosTheist]

Jesus Himself can appear to them in a vision. I feel confident in saying this because I was present when my father was dying - and Our Lord appeared to him. We could not see Jesus, but my father said he was seeing Him. All Mom and I had noticed was that he kept staring into one corner of the room. (From reading, I know similar visions have been granted to others also.)

Arent you stretching stuff a little bit? This is about bible contradictions and the solutions that people would like to see should also come from the bible.

 

[AgnosTheist]

It therefore follows that those who never heard of Christ or the Church can be saved by acting on the grace God gave them because of the redemptive sacrifice of Christ which opened heaven to all peoples.

1. So you are saying that faith isnt really a requirement for salvation?
2. Acting on the grace of God? Was there a difference between the actions of a pagan before the death of Jesus and the actions of a pagan after the resurrection? or is it simply that the good deeds of a pagan suddenly became acceptable when before it isnt?

 

[Nita]

Arent you stretching stuff a little bit? This is about bible contradictions and the solutions that people would like to see should also come from the bible.

No, I don’t think it’s stretching. Granted an atheist might think so, but they think the existence of God is stretching it. I’m not sure why a bible quote would have more meaning to an atheist than human experience and reasoning, since they put more trust in the latter than in the former.

But, if they want a Scripture, try Romans 2:26-29

“So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. …and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal…”

Granted, the circumstance given in Paul’s speech is the Old Covenant rite of initiation/incorporation - not the New, but the concept He is putting forth is that God looks at the heart and acts of a person and if they are good He will regard that person as being incorporated into His Covenant people.

Nita

 

[Della]

1. So you are saying that faith isnt really a requirement for salvation?

No, I’m simply saying what the Church says–that faith in Christ has a broader definition than simple acclamation or acceptance of theological facts but includes how one conducts one’s life according to the principles Christ taught utilizing the light and graces they are given.

1. Acting on the grace of God? Was there a difference between the actions of a pagan before the death of Jesus and the actions of a pagan after the resurrection? or is it simply that the good deeds of a pagan suddenly became acceptable when before it isnt?

No, I’m saying that these souls MAY have access to heaven because of the redemption. Those righteous pagans who died before the redemption would be in pretty much the same position as OT righteous Jews–awaiting Christ’s coming to bring them to the glory of heaven.

But, let’s not take the thread off topic by turning this into yet another discussion of EENS. I hold to what the Church teaches, as I cited above, as all Catholics ought to do. No more, no less.

 

[AgnosTheist]

No, I don’t think it’s stretching. Granted an atheist might think so, but they think the existence of God is stretching it. I’m not sure why a bible quote would have more meaning to an atheist than human experience and reasoning, since they put more trust in the latter than in the former.

Where is the ‘reasoning’ in guessing that they might have a vision of jesus? And the example you used was your dad, obviously he heard the name jesus before. But we are talking about those who havent heard about j-e-s-u-s.

But, if they want a Scripture, try Romans 2:26-29

“So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. …and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal…”

Granted, the circumstance given in Paul’s speech is the Old Covenant rite of initiation/incorporation - not the New, but the concept He is putting forth is that God looks at the heart and acts of a person and if they are good He will regard that person as being incorporated into His Covenant people.

The context is about jewish and non-jewish christians. Its got nothing to do with the discussion here.

 

[Nick9]

I guess that belief and faith in Christ can be implicit rather than explicit, in the sense that those who never heard of Christ, but have an inner awareness of right and wrong, which they obey, can be said to have faith in the Logos/Word/Christ who is in them and is speaking to them.

This helps us reconcile the two ideas that belief and faith are necessary for salvation and that those who never heard of Jesus can be saved.

Nick

 

[Clovis]

I know what I have to say will be disliked but I will say it anyways. God nor Christ care whether you had heard of Christ during your life or reject him or what ever, this is why there is the judgment of souls and the end tribulation which separated us finally from the earth’s evils. When the end times come, mark my word, everyone will be seeking Christ; this is why Christ mentioned the gospels must be spread throughout the nations, so they could understand Christ many things concerning the final tribulation. I also have great hope even for the world’s worst people, as Christ said, there fall will be great, and under the distress they will weep and gnash teeth in their curses of God for there plagues, but I remain optimistic even for them as God will ultimately be compassionate and restore the hearts of men.

 

[J_Beau]

The context is about jewish and non-jewish christians. Its got nothing to do with the discussion here.

Actually the text is juxtaposing Jews and gentiles. Christians have yet to enter Paul’s argument. He’s building up to that.

In fact, in the 1st chapter Paul says in reference to people who do not explicitly know God:

“Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;” Rom 1:20
So everyone has some knowledge of God and they will be judged based on that knowledge. God is just.

 

[Nita]

Where is the ‘reasoning’ in guessing that they might have a vision of jesus? And the example you used was your dad, obviously he heard the name jesus before. But we are talking about those who havent heard about j-e-s-u-s.

Hi AgnosTheist,

Guess I presumed the logic, from a Christian standpoint, was obvious. Sorry about that.
The reasoning is:

1. God/Jesus can do such a thing (appear in a vision, infuse knowledge, etc.)
2. He desires the salvation of all
3. Human testimony that such things have happened (various life after death testimonies)
4. Therefore, it is not contrary to reason to think that God could appear to someone in their final moments.

I certainly was not giving my experience with my father as something that should be used in Nick9’s discussion/debate with an atheist. There are far more remarkable stories than mine that could be used for that. It was just a personal interjection to indicate why - besides logical reasons - I personally felt confident to make the assertion that God might intervene in the final moments.

The context is about jewish and non-jewish christians. Its got nothing to do with the discussion here.

Regarding the Romans quote. Nick9 said the atheist also made the same type arguments regarding baptism (See his opening post.) It was my error for not noting in my post that the Roman’s passage can be used especially in refuting the Baptism attacks. My apologies. (Circumcision=initiation rite into OT Covenant people; Baptism=initiation rite into NT Covenant people) I think it can also apply to faith, but in a less obvious way. Verses 14 - 16 given below might be easier for someone to tie in with faith.

Regarding the context being “jewish and non jewish Christians”, I disagree. The context is the value of the Law, the value of being a Jew. This becomes obvious if you read the **whole **chapter.
Just one short sample:

*Rom 2:14-16 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. *

You say that these words have no application here. I guess I’m not sure how you read/interpret/apply Scripture. That is probably where we differ. I see Paul’s words in Romans 2 as having meaning today - not just for Jews, but for me and all Christians.
Specifically: Do not think because we have undergone the religious initiation rite of Baptism, believe Jesus is God and His teaching is true, that we are guaranteed salvation. The teaching must be lived.
And, do not consider condemned those who are not baptized, who do not know and believe in Jesus due to their circumstances, yet live as He taught. (This meaning definitely responds to the atheist’s challenge.)

By the way, in Scripture and in Catholic teaching “faith” means more than just believing. I mention this just because I made a couple of presumptions in earlier posts that I shouldn’t have, and don’t want to make the mistake of making any more.

Hope this post clarifies.

God bless,
Nita

 

[pathia]

I won’t say I’m an atheist, but my faith is certainly on autopilot.

I’ve never once felt the presence of God, not once, and I’ve been going to Mass since I can remember, I was raised through the church. Like I said, simply autopilot. There’s no ‘crisis’ of faith per say, I just don’t feel anything. I feel the same no matter where I am, no matter how much I pray. There’s only a void inside, and I never feel any sort of presence people here attest to experiencing.

I’ve fasted to the point of hallucinations, all sorts of things, but I’ve still yet to ever experience any sort of presence or vision, nothing at all.

What about folks like this? I know a few others like me too. I don’t even know if I would say I’m agnostic, I think that the only explanation of existence is God, it’s just logical. But I certainly never feel anything that indicates he’s around.

 

[J_Beau]

I won’t say I’m an atheist, but my faith is certainly on autopilot.

I’ve never once felt the presence of God, not once, and I’ve been going to Mass since I can remember, I was raised through the church. Like I said, simply autopilot. There’s no ‘crisis’ of faith per say, I just don’t feel anything. I feel the same no matter where I am, no matter how much I pray. There’s only a void inside, and I never feel any sort of presence people here attest to experiencing.

I’ve fasted to the point of hallucinations, all sorts of things, but I’ve still yet to ever experience any sort of presence or vision, nothing at all.

What about folks like this? I know a few others like me too. I don’t even know if I would say I’m agnostic, I think that the only explanation of existence is God, it’s just logical. But I certainly never feel anything that indicates he’s around.

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”
John 20:29

Faith is not about feelings, so don’t worry. Its all about trust in God. He gives you what you need. If you can believe and trust him without visions or locutions or other spiritual consolations … Oh how blessed you truly are. I know its difficult to go through, but whoever said the cross was easy. Its not easy but it is effective.

 

[Nick9]

I won’t say I’m an atheist, but my faith is certainly on autopilot.

I’ve never once felt the presence of God, not once, and I’ve been going to Mass since I can remember, I was raised through the church. Like I said, simply autopilot. There’s no ‘crisis’ of faith per say, I just don’t feel anything. I feel the same no matter where I am, no matter how much I pray. There’s only a void inside, and I never feel any sort of presence people here attest to experiencing.

I’ve fasted to the point of hallucinations, all sorts of things, but I’ve still yet to ever experience any sort of presence or vision, nothing at all.

What about folks like this? I know a few others like me too. I don’t even know if I would say I’m agnostic, I think that the only explanation of existence is God, it’s just logical. But I certainly never feel anything that indicates he’s around.

hi pathia,

I don’t get feelings either. The only thing I get is peace, if that’s what it is, especially after receiving the Eucharist. It is a bit like the void you speak of; a total absence of feelings. The saints say that to persevere in this state is good, because it increases faith and trust in God alone, and will be rewarded later.