Atheists delusional?

[Russell_SA]

Can we agree that if the series never terminated at a “first cause” there would be no means by which any subsequent cause could be supported (akin to a chandelier always one chain link short of the ceiling)?

I can understand how that is logically correct, but I don’t know if that is a true representation of what reality is though since we can not falsify this or investigate it. I agree it makes since, but I am willing to change my mind if reality presents it differently. Reality is my measurement of what is logical or not since our logic can be flawed. Such as adding 1+2+3+… to infinity is -1/12. Doesn’t seem logical but it is actually the case.
Data from reality supersedes my logical conclusions every time. That is why we have to demonstrate our logical conclusions. Well to people that want planes to actually fly, medicine to actually work, etc.

And can we agree that nothing can be the cause of itself (that is, the universe did not spontaneously create itself)?

You have a first cause deity, so there never was a nothing to you so we can not know what a “nothing” can or can not do since we have not studied an actual nothing. I can understand logically what you mean by this, but see above point about demonstrating our logical conclusions.

We tend to refer to the uncaused cause of all things as “God”.

No, we are not on board with calling it god since it has additional baggage as well. We can be on board with calling it, “I don’t know”. Universe causing pixies that self explode to cause the universe meets the necessary requirements of this as well.

 

[KindredSoul]

(And yes, I’ve also in essence argued at times that believing God is NOT real as opposed to simply withholding judgment, is at best an 8.9, too, as opposed to scientific facts, but I haven’t called it a 0–there are arguments for it, they just don’t amount to verifiable proof either)

 

[pocaracas]

So auditory schizophrenic hallucinations but helpful? I wouldn’t be sufficiently convinced by that. Please find a better means of convincing people like me so that I can be convinced and reach Heaven with you.

Worldwide schizophrenic hallucinations woudln’t cut it?
“I see him, everyone else claims to see him and talk to him… but I still refuse that this wise entity is real”.
It would be enough for me…

Snide remark aside, I hope you see the futility in ever trying to sufficiently convince everyone.

That’s why childhood indoctrination was invented, right?
(snide remark back atcha!)

 

[IWantGod]

We do this all the time with comic books. Invent a power entity, give it a logically consistent back story. Just most people stop at going to comic-con just a couple of times a year. The religious go to their comic-con every week and then try to make what’s in their comic legally demanding on everyone else in society.

You are being dishonest. And your attitude is clearly of someone who is only interested in trashing peoples faith and that is why you come across so ignorant of the facts. Comparing the Christian movement to a comic book character that got out of hand shows how ignorant you really are. Its really quite laughable.

People are particularly Christian, not because they made up Jesus and deluded themselves into thinking he is real. They believe in Jesus because of a movement that began 2000 years ago based on one man who proved his deity and was killed for it. Had he just merely claimed he was God, people would have thought him a mad man or a drunkard and most certainly a blasphemer as this occurred within the Jewish culture of that time.

Had there been no truth to his claim as being the son of God, it’s next to impossible that Christianity would have gotten of the ground. You have to jump through hoops and make absurd claims and ignore the implications of his actions and impact on the culture in those times to even get anything close to the idea of Christianity being based upon a “normal man”.

Your better off thinking that Jesus never existed.

 

[pocaracas]

based on one man who proved his deity and was killed for it.

Wow wow wow.
Based on one man about whom it was claimed that he proved his deity by being killed and resurrected, as well as other astonishing feats prior to that.

I think you’ll find that that’s the best you can say about most of the first century followers (if not all) and all of the second century followers.
They would know less than most of us here about that man and all of it was from tales that circulated… Many that didn’t make into the final edit… But they were Christians nonetheless.

 

[IWantGod]

Wow wow wow.

Based on one man about whom it was claimed that he proved his deity by being killed and resurrected, as well as other astonishing feats prior to that.

I think you’ll find that that’s the best you can say about most of the first century followers (if not all) and all of the second century followers.

They would know less than most of us here about that man and all of it was from tales that circulated… Many that didn’t make into the final edit… But they were Christians nonetheless.

Like i said you have to ignore the implications of his actions and his impact on the culture in those times to even get anything close to the idea of Christianity being based upon a “normal man”.

Had none of the things that is said of him been true, it makes no sense that there is a religion based upon a man hanging on a cross. Even less sense that people risked their lives to pass on this information.

It’s hardly something that some human ego would come up with.

 

[Russell_SA]

I believe this is an accurate analogy to the central problem. The D&D group that goes out to throw imaginary fire balls and cast 1d8 healing spells at a LARPing event, just the religious took the D&D priest class too seriously. The religious actually believe they are channeling divine magical powers, that bread can turn into flesh, that zombies exists, etc. But they can not actually demonstrate this at all. At least the D&D group know that they are pretending, but the religious do not apparently. They believe it soo much that they are willing to die for it, even though they can not demonstrate if they are mistaken or not because we can not falsify a claim to magic. Okay, still doesn’t make it demonstrably true. I care if its true or not.

 

[Russell_SA]

We can argue for the likelihood scale of 1-10 based on observations of reality. We have a model for predicting the missing atomic elements that appears to be working so far. That is because we started of by observing these atomic elements first, learning about how they work, then building a predictable model from that data. How do you have a “likelihood” model of something that has zero references of manifesting in reality to reference and study? That is why it appears to be a zero-sum game to you but not to me. Your data that you accept as evidence of the supernatural, is not actually evidence to everyone else. Hearsay is not evidence, otherwise the hearsay of a comic character validates that comic character’s existence. The amount of people that believe it is not evidence, otherwise all the people of the jedi religion can manifest the “force” into existence. The limits of our justified understanding of reality is just “I don’t know”, not “god of the gaps”. I am not against evidence of the supernatural because it is possible to have all bad examples of evidence for the supernatural up to this point and that appears to be the case for me so far. It’s like needing Pi to the 5th decimal place in the equation to have a justified conclusion about reality but the religious don’t even bother using a number, they just keep presenting “Because I want it to be so.” They don’t even present evidence that works as evidence of the supernatural.

 

[IWantGod]

They believe it soo much that they are willing to die for it, even though they can not demonstrate if they are mistaken or not because we can not falsify a claim to magic. Okay, still doesn’t make it demonstrably true. I care if its true or not.

All that the leaders of Judaism at that time had to do is say that Jesus did not exist and that he never performed miracles. The problem you are failing to realize is that Christianity is not an arbitrary concept that came into existence out of thin air. It is rooted in judaism. So you can’t simply blow it off as wishful thinking. People don’t get murdered for comic book characters, and the people of Judaism certainly would not have given up on their faith lightly in-order to follow a liar or a drunkard or a blasphemer claiming to be the son of God. You have to take people for idiots to think that… If Jesus was not what people thought he was he would have been exposed. Instead the leaders saw him as a threat to judaism and had the romans kill him.

That’s not wishful thinking, that’s what happened. And the fact that Christianity exists is in and of itself a strong implication that he really was the son of God otherwise he would have been remembered as just a man, a blasphemer, a deceiver.

The problem here is that you a-prior take Christians for idiots. But the reality is, all you have is half baked excuses as for why you don’t want to believe. Like you said, in so many words, you don’t like the christian moral code. And i’m willing to bet that you still wouldn’t like it if God gave you what you supposedly want.

I don’t think you want evidence. Your attitude is a testament to the fact.

 

[Russell_SA]

So your whole point here is human behavior towards an idea of magic verifies the magic. No that is not how you verify magic existing, you have to demonstrate that magic exists regardless of people’s emotional attachment to the idea of magic.

And i’m willing to bet that you still wouldn’t like it if God gave you what you supposedly want.

I want my internal model of reality to match reality as accurately as possible regardless of my feelings about it. If there is a deity, first I would become a deist and put that in with the model of reality.
Whether or not to have a relationship with the deity is a separate issue. I think this is where you are mixing up the points. Wanting to have a relationship with a deity is the same as believing the deity exists. No doesn’t work that way. Knowing someone exists does not mean you have to have a relationship with that deity. I still have to assess the deity’s character to see if I find it someone I would want a relationship with.

 

[IWantGod]

So your whole point here is human behavior towards an idea of magic verifies the magic.

No. How Jewish people responded to Jesus implies that he wasn’t just a liar. If he was just a man, nobody would have followed him. If Jesus did not exist, and did not have a more than a charismatic impact on their religion, Christianity would not exist.

 

[Russell_SA]

So no one follows the Socratic method that Plato and Socrates worked on? No one follows someone else’s discovered good ideas of how to lead a good life? Think you just spit on the idea of parents and what they do for their children and friends for what they do for us and literary thinkers, philosophers, and just the nice random person on the street sharing a bench with you.

 

[IWantGod]

No one follows someone else’s discovered good ideas of how to lead a good life?

Like i said, Christianity is rooted in Judaism. It’s not a different religion. It completes Judaism. To say that people followed Jesus just because he offered them a lifestyle change, is absurd. Again, this just shows how ignorant you are of the facts. They followed Jesus because he proved he was the son of God, he was the Messiah.

 

[Russell_SA]

I am fine believing a failed carpenter can still come up with some claims about how to live the good life. But you can not demonstrate his magical abilities at all. Also, his story could have been legend as well. Just like the creation of Robin-hood and King Arthur. A conglomerate of people put together to create the hero myth character. But does that mean King Arthur’s sword actually can pierce stone? that the lady of the lake is real? No, no it does not. There could have actually been a king with a round table for all his chums, doesn’t make him have super powers.

 

[IWantGod]

I am fine believing a failed carpenter can still come up with some claims about how to live the good life.

He was not murdered because he had good ideas. He was murdered because he claimed to be the son of God. Jewish people followed him because he proved to them in particular what he claimed to be, otherwise they would not have. They would not have turned against their religious leaders and risked their lives as outcasts for a man who had not proved his substance. They were Jews, not some non-religious person who was led astray by mystical tales because the person had charisma. Their allegiance was with Judaism.

 

[Russell_SA]

Abolitionists risked their lives to save slaves as well. They followed their leaders on why it is immoral to own people as property, despite the bible explicitly allowing this. Dying for a cause is not evidence that your leader has magical powers, it just means you believe the cause is worth dying for.

 

[IWantGod]

Abolitionists risked their lives to save slaves as well.

They didn’t claim to be the son of God.

 

[Russell_SA]

Irrelevant to my point. My point is that you can find ideas to die for. Does not make the idea of magic existing though.

 

[IWantGod]

Irrelevant to my point.

Your point is irrelevant. Jesus claimed to be the son of God, that is what he died for and that is what his followers died for.

 

[Russell_SA]

Not irrelevant, they were willing to die for the idea of this person’s teachings and claims. Do you really think what they did was all that special? How is it any different from other religious people killing a different religious group over who has the god with the bigger stick? Martyrdom is a well documented way to be remembered in this history of your group and the people important to you. Do you think muslims will ever forget Osama bin Laden? Still can’t demonstrate that magic exists or that this person had magical powers. I care if that is actually part of reality. The story of King Arthur is an old story as well with knights dying for their king’s causes. Does that mean Morgana exists with magical powers and king Arthur’s sword could be called upon to break your opponent’s weapons?