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Paddy1989
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If you think within the Christian frame of mind for example where one believes God created us and all the universe then yes there is more than just subjective meaning, purpose and value
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FiveLinden
Guest
Yes, but why do you believe this?
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Prodigal_Son
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Why is that?If God doesn’t exist then there is no objective purpose meaning and value to the universe and everything in it, everything just is.
Is God valuable? If so, then you think that value can exist without something else existing that values it. And if you think that, then value could presumably exist without God around to give things value.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
First of all the “naturalist” the Truth is that there is no ultimate objective meaning and yet happiness is still possible. I know many atheists who are happy in spite of not believing in an ultimate objective meaning.The naturalist will believe that being consistent with both Truth and happiness is impossible for if naturalism is true then who could accept the Truth that there is no objective meaning, purpose and value to life and still be happy.
For them “Objective truth” is what science points to with evidence. And we all build meaning and value subjectively. Our belief in anything objective is a subjective belief. That is why delusion is a possibility.They are forced to choose personal happiness and build meaning and value to their life from subjectivity because they would rather be happy than live by the objective truth. For the Christian, truth leads to happiness
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Paddy1989
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My reasons for believing in God is a great number of factors mainly being philosophical whether it’s based on moral philosophy or the cosmological argument. History and to a small extent science in which we know there was a absolute beginning to the universe which begs the question, what is beyond time, space and matter that caused it and then also the fine tuning of the universe for life. Another one would be miracles. I think G.K Chesterton makes great points in defense of miracles. I still have to ask but why do you give yourself subjective meaning purpose and value, don’t you perhaps think it’s nothing more than natures way of you justifying your flourishing and survival. So essentially an illusion built on self interest. How should one come to value your such high opinion of yourself anymore than one should value your opinion that you like caramel ice cream. My question on this is to just understand your reasoning that’s all as I like to hear from different perspectives
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I like the way you are thinking , but I think the reason I wouldn’t describe it as delusion is because an atheist isn’t trying to give their life meaning. They simply allow themselves to give in to their natural human desires like surviving. An atheist gets a job, not to give their life meaning, but to earn money to fulfill desires that are part of human nature like hunger, safety, being entertained. An atheist obeys laws, not because of some objective moral truth that they invented, but because it allows society to function in a way that keeps people safe from the harms of others. Atheists deny the significance of their rational principle, and accept themselves as animals, so they only apply their rational principle to fulfill natural needs like animals. Thus, they are not delusional but consistent.
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IWantGod
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That’s what everybody is doing, not just religious people. That’s what the OP is trying to explain.
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IWantGod
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I don’t think the OP is presenting an argument for theism as such, but rather he is simply stating that if God does not exist then the entire human race is living in a delusional fantasy by default and we are simply victims of our natural impulses, impulses that are fundamentally meaningless and pointless to begin with…In other-words human behavior or human emotional feelings is absurd, pointless and meaningless in so far as they are not grounded in an objective rational end, and our delusion is the obvious fact that none of us truly believe our actions or feelings to be truly absurd or pointless or meaningless. This is where the honesty or the absolute blindness of the atheist is brought into qeustion.
Of course some atheists simply don’t care as long as their natural impulses are fulfilled. So the fact that they claim Christian feelings, beliefs, and behavior, to be irrational is absurd and hypocritical at best. At least the Christian has no way of knowing that they are wrong.
Of course some atheists simply don’t care as long as their natural impulses are fulfilled. So the fact that they claim Christian feelings, beliefs, and behavior, to be irrational is absurd and hypocritical at best. At least the Christian has no way of knowing that they are wrong.
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Hereiam
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LOL…you nailed it…I think the same thing quite often when I visit World News!Some of us Catholics might be delusional.
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rossum
Guest
No. If the Christian God does not exist, but Vishnu does, then Vishnu is the source of meaning and value.If God doesn’t exist then there is no objective purpose meaning and value to the universe and everything in it, everything just is.
If Vishnu does not exist, then atheists are right about the non-existence of Vishnu. Remember that you agree with atheists about the non-existence of vast majority of humanity’s gods.
Apart from that, I find the Christian God not to be a good source of moral values. How many people does God kill? How many children? How many unborn children. His example is not a good one to follow.
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rossum
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Only in certain circumstances. In base 3, the objectively correct equation is:If a subjective belief contradicts an objective truth it is irrational. For example 2+2=4 is objectively true
A great many truths depend on unstated assumptions. It is necessary to tease out all the unstated assumptions to correctly analyse them. Your 2 + 2 = 4 assumes a number base of 5 or greater.2 + 2 = 11
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Kei
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There is a very large difference between a theistic and nontheistic world view.No. If the Christian God does not exist, but Vishnu does, then Vishnu is the source of meaning and value.
If Vishnu does not exist, then atheists are right about the non-existence of Vishnu. Remember that you agree with atheists about the non-existence of vast majority of humanity’s gods.
A world without Cottonelle is a lot different from a world without any toilet paper at all.
Though, of course, God is much more foundational in terms of the nature of reality.
Let me put it this way, if Ramushi is not a real god/incarnation of god, then that’s one thing, but if Brahman just isn’t, then it’s a much different worldview indeed.
Or if Yamantaka doesn’t exist, that’s one thing, but if Sakyamuni was just plain wrong about everything, that’s a whole different world.
In a sense, about everyone who dies, because He is the source of all that is. Yet this is a very shallow understanding, as it ignores the justice, absolute Sovereignty, and Love of God; His Law and Incarnation is the role model for humanity. Suffering is not to be escaped but embraced, and indeed the joy we then can embrace all the more, living a life truly that is life to the fill. Death, though rightly deserved, is no mere escape from sufferings but can be a joy much sweeter.Apart from that, I find the Christian God not to be a good source of moral values. How many people does God kill? How many children? How many unborn children. His example is not a good one to follow.
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Paddy1989
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As for different religions, we don’t discard anything they say as 100% lies. In actual fact to describe different faiths is to describe them having different degrees of truth which we can relate with. The Atheist if Vishnu is true is still delusional. They are delusional if God exists because they are in contradiction of reality, they are delusional if God doesn’t exist because of how they react to the reality of a universe having no purpose, meaning and value
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pocaracas
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Wow… Stockholm syndrome much?In a sense, about everyone who dies, because He is the source of all that is. Yet this is a very shallow understanding, as it ignores the justice, absolute Sovereignty, and Love of God; His Law and Incarnation is the role model for humanity. Suffering is not to be escaped but embraced, and indeed the joy we then can embrace all the more, living a life truly that is life to the fill. Death, though rightly deserved, is no mere escape from sufferings but can be a joy much sweeter.
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rossum
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To a follower of an Abrahamic religion. I am Buddhist, so the cause of death is birth. Birth is caused be our own failure to achieve enlightenment in our previous life. In Buddhism we cause our own deaths, they are not caused by any god. Actions have consequences, and death is a consequence of our previous actions, not intervention by a morally dubious god.In a sense, about everyone who dies, because He is the source of all that is.
You are assuming the correctness of the Abrahamic description of God here. There are alternatives available.
rossum
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Kei
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If one is to say something against the Abrahamic God, it should be within the Abrahamic worldview, no?
Though of course, in Christianity our death is due to sin, and is humanity’s fault.
Though of course, in Christianity our death is due to sin, and is humanity’s fault.
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Kei
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No. Perhaps you misunderstand what I say? What strikes you as Stockholm syndrome-y?
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rossum
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Do you feel free to criticise the Dharmic (Indian) religions from the point of view of the Abrahamic God? Sauce for the goose…If one is to say something against the Abrahamic God, it should be within the Abrahamic worldview, no?
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Kei
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No, I do not feel free to criticize the Indian gods as such, at least not publicly, unless it is in comparison (i.e., the Indian god is ultimately unknowable and hence has many many different incarnations, but the Christian God is knowable through the Way, Jesus Christ).
I have criticized Taoism from a Christian point of view publically, however, when I was younger.
Though of course, point of view can mean a lot of different things. Ultimately if it is the source of our morals and our ideas on thought and the capability of rationality, then our worldviews affect us in a great many ways beyond the initial. For instance, if you were to believe that there is not pure good or bad, but that all was a mix of sorts, then that is a different sort of thing than if one believed a pure good could be, and in fact is, though it may be difficult for us to do such. This can then affect moral decisions and ultimately a view on the world that is difficult to look away from at least without some bias.
I have criticized Taoism from a Christian point of view publically, however, when I was younger.
Though of course, point of view can mean a lot of different things. Ultimately if it is the source of our morals and our ideas on thought and the capability of rationality, then our worldviews affect us in a great many ways beyond the initial. For instance, if you were to believe that there is not pure good or bad, but that all was a mix of sorts, then that is a different sort of thing than if one believed a pure good could be, and in fact is, though it may be difficult for us to do such. This can then affect moral decisions and ultimately a view on the world that is difficult to look away from at least without some bias.
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pocaracas
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Just this bit:No. Perhaps you misunderstand what I say? What strikes you as Stockholm syndrome-y?
Personally, I’d rather minimize suffering for all of mankind, but I know I must work within the constraints posited on me by society and technological availability.Suffering is not to be escaped but embraced, and indeed the joy we then can embrace all the more
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