Atheists delusional?

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Very probably: I suspect my human value is greater to me than to most folk.
According to your reality, which I presume is based on life being a result of evolution, a human is just one biological machine amongst millions of other biological machines that mindless nature has produced. So any form of life is really just a collection of molecules fortunately arranged to form a machine. This being the case, how can you prove that a human has greater value than, say, a flea?
 
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That would be your subjective opinion about value.

Got any objective reason for thinking you might be right about the ALWAYS part?

Besides that you subjectively think it is so, I mean.
Without objective truth, man is destined for only madness, confusion and conflict.
 
Value is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS subjective.
So you can think your life has meaning, but you can’t prove it. Evolution implies that not only is a human life no more important than the life of a bug, human life has no value at all. Humans don’t need to survive or even exist, so human life is meaningless and worthless.
 
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Any Christian who claims that they “KNOW” that God exists, is delusional, because such knowledge is unattainable.
I guess so, but as a result of my study of science, I have concluded that there must be a Creator. So does scientific knowledge count?
 
This being the case, how can you prove that a human has greater value than, say, a flea?
I can’t presume to speak for PickyPicky, but I’d answer with “he did say ‘to me’”.
How can you expect someone to prove a subjective thing?

It seems to me that you are assuming that this “value” is objective, by your repeated use of the desire for it to be proven, but then make it patent that it’s not provable, unwittingly pointing in the direction of it being subjective.
 
So if someone acts in a way that de-values you should they be held accountable? Wouldn’t holding someone accountable for a subjective truth be irrational?
 
It’s objective as we as creations of God and made with an intrinsic value in his image with meaning and purpose. Therefore mankind has an objective purpose, value and meaning as it’s cause transcends mankind. All of humanity created by God are bound by this truth. To say we have no objective value would be contradicting the truth of creation
 
ok… now imagine, just imagine, like the atheists in the thread’s title, imagine there is no God.
How does all that stand?
 
Then the truth is we have no value and are as equally worthless as all living things. Saying otherwise would be a rejection of the truth. Murder or rape or compassion or self sacrifice would only be right or wrong depending on each individual subject dictating it
 
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Then the truth is we have no value and are as equally worthless as all living things. Saying otherwise would be a rejection of the truth
We would have no objective value, true.
But, like money, shiny metals, crystals and art, etc, we would surely still have subjective value.
I think I am worth quite a lot. I think my family and friends are worth pretty much as much as me.
I think politicians aren’t worth that much… and the farther away (not merely geographically) from me someone is, the least value I place upon them.
Murder or rape or compassion or self sacrifice would only be right or wrong depending on each individual subject dictating it
Luckily, we live in a society. A society where most people seem to agree that murder and rape are undesirable, while compassion and self sacrifice (within reason) are desirable. Most people, subjectively agree on these things… leading to a seemingly objective moral thread… what do you say to that?
 
People subjectively agree on an objective truth the same as we subjectively agree that 2+2=4. That humanity has intrinsic value and is equal in this value. Now for the atheists this is not objectively true therefore they can only create it as a subjective truth and hope people agree on their subjective truth. The problem is and I’m sure you’ll agree is that Atheists and Christians alike value objective truth over subjective truth. If human value becomes subjective then if losses alot of merit. A animal fighting for its life will subjectively value it’s own life over another, there is no morality to that, no right or wrong, it’s just how every animal behaves according to their natural instinct to survive. You pleading to society to respect your human value is you merely using your intellect to survive, to see it as anything more would be illusory, your morality is an evolutionary trait like your hands and feet, it’s use is for reproduction and survival, nothing more
 
Murder or rape or compassion or self sacrifice would only be right or wrong depending on each individual subject dictating it
And how is this different from God ordering the slaughter of whole tribes or cities – pregnant women included? Is morality just a version of “might makes right” with God being the mightiest.

rossum
 
According to your reality, which I presume is based on life being a result of evolution
Well, no, my reality (however you define that) is not based on the findings of one branch of the sciences, evolutionary biology or any other. Ardent creationists may be obsessed by speciation but, in my experience, the bulk of the population is not. Incidentally, I am sure you didn’t mean to imply that life itself is purported by the theory to be the result of evolution, since you know that is not the case.
a human is just one biological machine amongst millions of other biological machines that mindless nature has produced.
The analogy of living organism with machine is sometimes useful – as an analogy. But that is all it is. The suggestion that because I am unconvinced by supernatural narratives I therefore see my wife or my children or my grandchildren as mere machines is a suggestion I find offensive. And the odd thing is that “machine” by definition is a better description of the creatures in a creationist’s worldview: a machine is, by definition, the result of intelligent design.
So any form of life is really just a collection of molecules
Well, it certainly is a collection of molecules. I’m not sure why that would attract the word “just”. Living organisms are wonderful and complex collections of molecules.
fortunately arranged to form a machine.
There’s that machine again. But the choice of the word "fortunately’ looks tendentious. It is certainly not the word I would use in that context: I am as little convinced by Tyche as I am by the other denizens of Olympus.
This being the case, how can you prove that a human has greater value than, say, a flea?
So I am told my values are subjective, and then asked to make an objective evaluation. That seems somewhat delusional. As it happens I cannot “prove” that a human has greater value than a flea, and nor can anyone else, if they mean by value what I mean by value. Of course there is more to eat on a human, but the flea can jump better. And then again the flea and I might have different opinions on our comparative worth.
 
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People subjectively agree on an objective truth the same as we subjectively agree that 2+2=4. That humanity has intrinsic value and is equal in this value.
Yes to the first, when “objective truth” applies.

As for the second, what is the value of humanity to a non-human?
The problem is and I’m sure you’ll agree is that Atheists and Christians alike value objective truth over subjective truth.
Are you saying that the value of “objective truth” is subjective? 😉
If human value becomes subjective then if losses alot of merit.
Maybe that’s merit that it never really had, but people subjectively attributed a higher value to it if they were convinced that human value was objective?
A animal fighting for its life will subjectively value it’s own life over another, there is no morality to that, no right or wrong, it’s just how every animal behaves according to their natural instinct to survive.
Yes, just like humans value themselves above all other animals.
You pleading to society to respect your human value is you merely using your intellect to survive, to see it as anything more would be illusory, your morality is an evolutionary trait like your hands and feet, it’s use is for reproduction and survival, nothing more
I don’t think I have to plea to society to respect my value. Society intrinsically values the survival of its members… at least of a majority of its members, which means I have some value to society, just like you have some value to society, just like we all have some value to society.
Some people have harmed the societal harmony and society has deemed that they should be kept away, that’s why we have prisons.
Our laws, whether they stem from a religion or from a secular government, seem to reflect the values of the people at a particular location and era, so I don’t see them as ever being anything other than subjective to the society that creates them.
 
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Glark:
This being the case, how can you prove that a human has greater value than, say, a flea?
I can’t presume to speak for PickyPicky, but I’d answer with “he did say ‘to me’”.
How can you expect someone to prove a subjective thing?

It seems to me that you are assuming that this “value” is objective, by your repeated use of the desire for it to be proven, but then make it patent that it’s not provable, unwittingly pointing in the direction of it being subjective.
Your assumption is that “subjective” implies being a standard unto itself with no objective basis to determine what constitutes properly subjective determinations.

What if there are objective standards for subjectivity such that to be a properly human subject has a specified set of qualifications by which each human person’s “subjective” determinations can be judged as more or less adequate or “true” to objective human subjectivity.

This would imply that Aristotle was quite correct in determining whether any particular human was properly living out his/her function as a human being cum human person.

The determining qualities would be whether any one person comprehended the True, loved the Good and desired the Beautiful. Proper disposition with regard to authentic values would, in fact, be the litmus test of whether any one human person was succeeding in their function of being human, rather than inhuman, bestial, evil, caddish, misanthropic or fiendish.
 
What if there are objective standards for subjectivity such that to be a properly human subject has a specified set of qualifications by which each human person’s “subjective” determinations can be judged as more or less adequate or “true” to objective human subjectivity.
Very well… what if?
How would we determine if such an objective subjectivity is real?
 
How would we determine if such an objective subjectivity is real?
The more moral, the wiser and the more attuned to beauty a person becomes, the better they are able to discern the Good, the True and the Beautiful.

Very similar to how the more expert a person becomes in any area, the better – all things being equal – they can discern the objective truth of things.

Take geology, for example. The more expert a person becomes in geology the better they can identify rock types and minerals, how they are formed, how they are broken down and how they transform into other types of rocks. Expertise in that area permits the person to know better the objective truth about the nature of rocks and minerals.

Rocks and minerals are pretty straightforward because their nature is relatively simple.

Biological sciences are more complex because the nature of living organisms is much more sophisticated than inorganic minerals. The sentience of some organisms makes their study even more complicated.

Add the psychological, intellectual and spiritual dimensions to a sentient being and things become even more difficult to completely understand.

The mere complexity of attaining to a sound objective understanding of beings imbued with personhood, however, isn’t sufficient to put the endeavour completely out of reach. After all, those personal beings is us. We happen to be the beings we are attempting to objectively understand.

I wouldn’t think it is a defensible position to merely assume that because we are subjective, that there is no objective basis for understanding the nature of who and what we are as subjective and thoughtful moral agents.

The assumption that everything reduces to the merely material could very well be an error – an error based upon the proclivity of humans to make things simple and comprehensible, (to our current mode and it attendant limitations) of thinking/knowing. Cognitive biases kick in and are far more effectual.

The beauty in music, for example, is better appreciated by those who have spent years studying music theory and composition. For those who haven’t, their rough and primitive assessment of certain kinds of music might approximate some rudimentary appreciation of the beauty in music, in the same way that moral agents with malformed or unformed consciences have a rudimentary sense of right and wrong.

The inherent difficulty with developing as moral agents, however, is THAT development is much more contingent upon the willingness to make tradeoffs and even give up self-centredness or objects of appetite, etc., so progression in the moral arts isn’t as straightforward as progress in scientific fields such as geography, precisely because we are so invested in the outcomes.

In those more “arms-length” endeavours nothing much hangs in the balance of knowing or not knowing, believing or not believing some particular fact about, say, minerals.

In moral or spiritual endeavours, personal investment in a particular belief costs something substantial. That is why moral or religious truths are much more difficult to find universal (read as ‘objective’) assent.
 
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