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Charlemagne_II
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Can those who die atheists be saved?
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quasimodo
Guest
The short answer to a short question is yes. The devil is in the details.
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crazzeto
Guest
In so far as my best understanding of salvation, no. Salvation requries an expression of faith… Some expression of faith, most ideally Christian (I would say Catholic/Orthodox, but at least most ideally christian) or if you’ve never been taught about Christ some expression of faith. With out an expression of faith, you are denying what God has written in our hearts completely, that He is our God and we are his Childeren.
I look forward to further thoughts.
I look forward to further thoughts.
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crazzeto
Guest
what details? Are you including or excluding “things beyond our understanding” which God may (or may not) do? Or are you answering this question in the sense that their final choice is Athiesm? If the latter, then I feel like I have to disagree. Again I look forward to the thoughts of others and further explanation. But based on what I know, I’m not so sure you can be saved if your final answer is Athism.
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quasimodo
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God wills the salvation of all. Most theologians interpret this to mean that God’s grace is given to all. Now consider some poor schmuck raised by militant atheists in and atheist country who never the less responds to that grace and follows the laws written on his heart by God. This is an expression of faith even if the words of faith are absent. Check the catechism.
I am not one who accepts the “moment of death choice” theological hypothesis if that is what you mean by “final choice.” Most Catholic theologians reject it.
I am not one who accepts the “moment of death choice” theological hypothesis if that is what you mean by “final choice.” Most Catholic theologians reject it.
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Charlemagne_II
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Let us assume that a person dies refusing to believe in God or even reaching out for such belief.
If he is refusing heaven, why should it be given to him in spite of his refusal? If a person wants nothing to do with God, why should God force himself on such a person?
If he is refusing heaven, why should it be given to him in spite of his refusal? If a person wants nothing to do with God, why should God force himself on such a person?
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crazzeto
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Yes, I do accept Gods Grace was poured out upon the world. But ultimatly Faith working through love is what is required to accept Garce. Just because grace was poured out doesn’t mean we all just go to heaven (which is, very quickly where we start going if we restrict our views to this). We can’t ignore, that our human response to god’s free gift of Grace is faith working through love. At least this is my current interpetation.
What you’re speaking of, this “ignorance clause” (as I call it) which I do accept… I don’t think that necessarly applies directly to Athiests. On the contrary, scriptually speaking the bible does in fact directly address Athism, very directly in Psalm 14, or in the online Douay Rheims (at least) Psalm 52 since they mixed up the numbers:
This was later referenced by Paul, and is frequently over applied to mean “every single human soul”, but the Psalm doesn’t discuss every single soul it speaks directly of athiests or “the fool who says in his heart, there is no God”.
Regarding the catechism, and God’s plan for salvation:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art4p2.shtml
That’s what I’m looking at, any additional thoughts?
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Conspiracy329
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This has always been one of my biggest questions for the Church. What happens if you have been taught about Christ, but also the many other religions. How is one to differenciate “the true religion”? I tend to believe that we are born with "some expression of faith"that it does not matter who or what or if you call “God”, just as long as you are true to your beliefs. There are so many cultures and tribes that have never been introduced to Christianity and if so they were raised to believe that it was wrong. I couldn’t imagine that a loving “God” would expect or want his children to be in such a mental tug-o-war. It is truly impossible to know while still on Earth!
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crazzeto
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In so far as the ignorance clause, I’m not sure. Please explain further, how was your faith formed? Were you formed Christian (say Catholic) then you heard about another religion and said “what the heck”? Or are you talking your parents formed you to beleive all of the above at the same time?
If the former, then you’re probably in trouble. You’ve rejected the truth of the Father, Son & Holy spirit. If the latter, then I can see how that is confusing and wrong. I’m not sure whether or not an individaul can be blamed for that. Utlimatly though, it’s my current understanding that you must, some how, be responding to God’s call with faith.
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Holly3278
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I personally find it hard to believe that there would be any hard-core atheists in Heaven. Of course, God is merciful and you never know what we might see in Heaven.
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crazzeto
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I’m glad you said that, because certainly we should be noting that everything being posted is merly our best understanding of salvation… We of course are not the judges of men.
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Charlemagne_II
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*We of course are not the judges of men. *
True, we are not the judge, but isn’t Christ?
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
True, we are not the judge, but isn’t Christ?
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
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crazzeto
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This is true, but we of course are not Christ. I was just trying to put an excalmation point on that beautiful sentament of humility that Holly added. Just noting that ultimatly we are just offering our opinions.
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Charlemagne_II
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More ominous news:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
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Trv
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But what does it mean to deny Jesus?
Does it mean to deny that there never was an incarnation of God, Jesus, that sacrificed himself for us?
Or does it mean denying everything Jesus stood for, ie love, selflessness, helping those in need, ect.
To me, the latter of the two is what Jesus is talking about because it can apply to everyone, regardless if you have ever heard of Jesus.
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Charlemagne_II
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Trv
*But what does it mean to deny Jesus? *
I think it means to deny Jesus in whatever way we choose to deny him. We can deny him by refusing to believe in God, we can deny him by refusing to obey his commandments, etc.
I don’t see that one way of denying him is any more critical or more excusable than any other way. Jeus didn’t say, "On the other hand, if you obey the second greatest commandment, I’ll let you off the hook for the first and greatest commandment.
Jesus said the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God. How can we do that if we are atheists? And how can we get to heaven if we disobey the first and greatest commandment?
There may well be plenty of Catholics and other Christians who have no personal love for Jesus, and are only nominally religious … you know, the “whited sepulchers.” It would seem they are in the same boat with the atheists, unless they come around before the end.
*But what does it mean to deny Jesus? *
I think it means to deny Jesus in whatever way we choose to deny him. We can deny him by refusing to believe in God, we can deny him by refusing to obey his commandments, etc.
I don’t see that one way of denying him is any more critical or more excusable than any other way. Jeus didn’t say, "On the other hand, if you obey the second greatest commandment, I’ll let you off the hook for the first and greatest commandment.
Jesus said the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God. How can we do that if we are atheists? And how can we get to heaven if we disobey the first and greatest commandment?
There may well be plenty of Catholics and other Christians who have no personal love for Jesus, and are only nominally religious … you know, the “whited sepulchers.” It would seem they are in the same boat with the atheists, unless they come around before the end.
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thistle
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I do not believe there are any atheists in Heaven. By definition an atheist rejects God by denying God even exists. Its a conscience act of rejection.
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crazzeto
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Yes, the only hope I believe is that the athiests turn to God. In some cases it’s a difficult task, well lets not kid our selves in most. Right now I’m working with a good friend of mine who’s faith was never formed. She is at least interested in trying to learn, she’s talked about joining a church but won’t until she “feels something”. That’s the tricky part, the spirit has to come to them, and unfortunetly we are not Apostolic fathers. We can’t send the spirit to them
Right now I"ve got her reading Bishop Fulton Sheen, though she says spiritally it’s not doing anything for her (at least the thoughts in the book make sense to her. And I even sence a thaw in her pro-choice stance). Next Mere Christianity by Lewis. I know none of these books will succeed in bringing the spirit to her. My main hope is merely, that when the spirital moment does come, she’s open and ready for it.
Simply, to deny Jesus is God (the son). Even those athiests who accept Jesus existed, and think he’s a wonderful teacher (ugh, pet peve of mine there) are still rejecting christ. Even if they live by his teachings. For these athiests, my hope is that they will be moved to fully accept Christ. While you live (in a mortal sense) there is always time to repent.
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Charlemagne_II
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crazzeto
Right now I"ve got her reading Bishop Fulton Sheen, though she says spiritally it’s not doing anything for her…
Well, that’s a good place to start.
What lured me back to the Catholic Church was sacred music. Can you get her some CDs of Catholic hymns? Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus” (ask her to check out the Leonard Bernstein version on YouTube) is sure to appeal if she wants a more emotional connection, and it wonderfully celebrates the Eucharist.
It’s good that she’s searching. That indicates a thirst for God. I’m praying for her.
Right now I"ve got her reading Bishop Fulton Sheen, though she says spiritally it’s not doing anything for her…
Well, that’s a good place to start.
What lured me back to the Catholic Church was sacred music. Can you get her some CDs of Catholic hymns? Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus” (ask her to check out the Leonard Bernstein version on YouTube) is sure to appeal if she wants a more emotional connection, and it wonderfully celebrates the Eucharist.
It’s good that she’s searching. That indicates a thirst for God. I’m praying for her.
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crazzeto
Guest
Well who knows what it is going to take. Lets bare in mind, she’s a totally and complete blank slate, and actuallly had a tendancy to not want to accept things on faith. The fact that she’s even looking at all is a miricle. I think the holy spirit is working big time on her already. I am hoping to get her more religious media, I was hoping she might start spending more time with say, EWTN.
Regarding music, yeah who knows maybe that is another avenue. We’ll see what I can do.
Regarding music, yeah who knows maybe that is another avenue. We’ll see what I can do.
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