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Charlemagne_II
Guest
People are thirsting for God even when they don’t know it, even when they deny it.
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theistgal
Guest
I would think Matthew 25:31-46 would offer some hope. I’m willing to bet there are plenty of self-professed atheists who have seen Christ hungry, and thirsty, and in prison, and who’ve ministered to Him - not realizing it was Him - who’ll be rewarded with these beautiful words:
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
I’m willing to bet there are plenty of self-professed atheists who have seen Christ hungry, and thirsty, and in prison, and who’ve ministered to Him - not realizing it was Him -
Theses are the atheists who I think are most likely to come around before their last breath.
Theses are the atheists who I think are most likely to come around before their last breath.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Then, there will be a lot of athiests in heaven I think. Christians don’t have a monopoly on charity or giving to others in whatever capacity they are best able.I would think Matthew 25:31-46 would offer some hope. I’m willing to bet there are plenty of self-professed atheists who have seen Christ hungry, and thirsty, and in prison, and who’ve ministered to Him - not realizing it was Him - who’ll be rewarded with these beautiful words:
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Christians are not the only ones who are pro life either.
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thistle
Guest
Charitable and other good deeds have no merit if the person rejects God.Then, there will be a lot of athiests in heaven I think. Christians don’t have a monopoly on charity or giving to others in whatever capacity they are best able.
Christians are not the only ones who are pro life either.
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crazzeto
Guest
Yes, but you need to have the faith in order for it to count. You can’t just work your way into heaven, you must believe in God first.I would think Matthew 25:31-46 would offer some hope. I’m willing to bet there are plenty of self-professed atheists who have seen Christ hungry, and thirsty, and in prison, and who’ve ministered to Him - not realizing it was Him - who’ll be rewarded with these beautiful words:
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
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tabsie3210
Guest
I guess that depends on what you mean by “Atheist.”
If you live in a country where religion is forbidden, but you believe in God, but are unable to attend Church or any other functions, I guess you’d technically be an “atheist,” in the sense of “a-theist,” or one without theism (i.e. a religion). But a better term would be non-religious then.
If you are talking about people who refuse to believe in God, I’d say, probably not. They wouldn’t want Him if they haven’t wanted Him all their lives.
Of course, suppose that your neighbor grew up where she was beaten every day for being a woman and bringing sin into the world (I’ve heard this story somewhere, don’t ask me where). She grows up thinking that all believers are women-haters who beat their children because of one person’s wrong-headed thinking and when she leaves home she becomes an atheist, turning away from a false God to nothingness. If nobody’s around to properly evangelize to her and she remains turned from God, might she end up in Heaven if she died and discovered the God she wanted was real? Who knows!
God is Eternally Merciful as well as Eternally Just. People don’t get a one-size-fits-all punishment. They get only what is absolutely appropriate to them.
I just hold on to that and leave the details up to God.
If you live in a country where religion is forbidden, but you believe in God, but are unable to attend Church or any other functions, I guess you’d technically be an “atheist,” in the sense of “a-theist,” or one without theism (i.e. a religion). But a better term would be non-religious then.
If you are talking about people who refuse to believe in God, I’d say, probably not. They wouldn’t want Him if they haven’t wanted Him all their lives.
Of course, suppose that your neighbor grew up where she was beaten every day for being a woman and bringing sin into the world (I’ve heard this story somewhere, don’t ask me where). She grows up thinking that all believers are women-haters who beat their children because of one person’s wrong-headed thinking and when she leaves home she becomes an atheist, turning away from a false God to nothingness. If nobody’s around to properly evangelize to her and she remains turned from God, might she end up in Heaven if she died and discovered the God she wanted was real? Who knows!
God is Eternally Merciful as well as Eternally Just. People don’t get a one-size-fits-all punishment. They get only what is absolutely appropriate to them.
I just hold on to that and leave the details up to God.
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crazzeto
Guest
It’s my understanding we’re talking about those who choose for them selves, and or actually evangalize athiesm. Not individuals who choose God but lack access due to persecution to regular religious services.
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steve_b
Guest
If they are allowed to go to heaven, and that’s a big IF, in heaven it’s a gurantee they are no longer atheists. I would also suggest, if they aren’t saved, there are no atheists in hell either. For in hell atheists too know God exists. Just as the demons know. But I would suggest also, atheists already knew that in this life.
God draws everyone. A person might get the particulars wrong, but NO one alive is excluded from this draw. The harder one resists this draw in this life, the stronger God draws them with grace. There is no double standard for Atheists and Christians. Therefore, as scripture says, only a fool can say from his heart, God doesn’t exist. [Ps 14:1] Why? Because God makes Himself known to all, such that there is no excuse one can give that God doesn’t exist. [Rm 1:20]
There is no double predestination either. God doesn’t sandbag anyone. He gives ALL the ability to go to heaven. That doesn’t mean everyone will go to heaven. And He warned as such
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KingTheoden
Guest
This is a good example as to why the SSPX looks upon the rest of us with very probing eyes.
Baptism by desire has been perverted to mean ‘oh, well, we all mean well, so we can be pretty sure we will all get to heaven.’ This is a weird psuedo-Protestant and watered down Buddhist ideology the GK Chesterton commented on, Pope Pius X condemned, and saddly what is celebrated in some Catholic churches today.
We do not judge souls. That is strictly God’s station. (We can, however, make judgments on actions.)
When the Americas were discovered, the Church in her wisdom understood that it was wrong to believe that God would create millions of souls totally cut off from the Europe-Asia-Africa axis only to necessarily deny them salvation.
I have no doubt that there were virtuous pre-Christians in the Americas and that they will enjoy time with God. How many there were is a different question.
The Church has the fullness of faith and is the means that Christ set for salvation of His sheep. It is therefore likely to believe that ‘saving rates’ were not very high in pagan cultures and is why many cultures (especially in Africa) are so thankful for the Church.
God can save whomever He wants. But to try to shoehorn atheists into ‘Baptism by desire’ is doctrinally wrong and probably the wishful thinking of a family member of an atheist.
Instead of looking for some technical out, we should be praying, always witnessing though our actions, and always evangelizing even if people don’t want to hear it.
Baptism by desire has been perverted to mean ‘oh, well, we all mean well, so we can be pretty sure we will all get to heaven.’ This is a weird psuedo-Protestant and watered down Buddhist ideology the GK Chesterton commented on, Pope Pius X condemned, and saddly what is celebrated in some Catholic churches today.
We do not judge souls. That is strictly God’s station. (We can, however, make judgments on actions.)
When the Americas were discovered, the Church in her wisdom understood that it was wrong to believe that God would create millions of souls totally cut off from the Europe-Asia-Africa axis only to necessarily deny them salvation.
I have no doubt that there were virtuous pre-Christians in the Americas and that they will enjoy time with God. How many there were is a different question.
The Church has the fullness of faith and is the means that Christ set for salvation of His sheep. It is therefore likely to believe that ‘saving rates’ were not very high in pagan cultures and is why many cultures (especially in Africa) are so thankful for the Church.
God can save whomever He wants. But to try to shoehorn atheists into ‘Baptism by desire’ is doctrinally wrong and probably the wishful thinking of a family member of an atheist.
Instead of looking for some technical out, we should be praying, always witnessing though our actions, and always evangelizing even if people don’t want to hear it.
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cassini
Guest
Browsing through some threads I poped in to read this one. How in God’s name could anyone take Catholics seriously were they to read some of the ideas put up on this one. Is this Modernism personified. How can an atheist today live a life and die without knowledge of God and in particular Catholic teaching? No atheist goes to his or her grave without **REJECTING ** God and especially Christ as the man-God Saviour. Accordingly, as the Catholic Church teaches from the very beginning, such people CANNOT enter heaven into the divine presence of the Triune God. People must WANT to go to God in heaven before they can get into heaven. This is why it is possible for other theists - be they of another religion - to get to heaven (through the doors of Catholicism) if there is inculpable ignorance present. Christ will judge who these people are.
Alas, there is new ‘Catholicism’ abroad now, called Modernism, where religious liberty has taken over and the Church’s teachings are watered down in an orgy of ‘compassion and understanding’, even to the extent that Atheists are now getting into heaven. God help us all. ‘When I return, do you think I will find faith on earth?’
Alas, there is new ‘Catholicism’ abroad now, called Modernism, where religious liberty has taken over and the Church’s teachings are watered down in an orgy of ‘compassion and understanding’, even to the extent that Atheists are now getting into heaven. God help us all. ‘When I return, do you think I will find faith on earth?’
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Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
I don’t think so. The closest thing you can find in the Catechism is CCC 847, but I don’t see an atheist seeking God with a sincere heart:
CCC 847 - …Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
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KingTheoden
Guest
What is often lost in discussion about atheists is that atheism is a very, very new and historically aberrant belief system. It is faith in nothing; an atheist, whether he overtly admits it or not, claims to have omniscience by his claim that there is no God (and thus makes himself God!)
Pagans do still exist in Africa, Asia, and very remote parts of Latin America. But they still believe in the need to serve a deity. Atheists appear only in the most rich, spoiled countries where people are just so evolved that they don’t need any sort of belief system (I guess besides their own pursuit of maximal pleasure).
I think Cassini offers strong words for a strong message. Baptism by Desire is being taken as a kind of infinite rubber band by some in the Church. A) This false ecumenism is not yielding anything else but mindless smiles across a table B) it is causing a massive decline in Church life, and C) putting Catholic, let alone non-Catholic, souls in grave jeopardy.
The more conservative Baptist types zoom in on this sort of talk and genuinely react in horror. Not only do us Catholic worship statues, they think, but we also believe that Dawkins is destined for heaven! Not a good way to fish for men.
We should be very thankful for the orthodox bishops and for Pope Benedict.
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crazzeto
Guest
I disagree with your assesment of athism, it’s not a faith in nothing. Those are the agnostics, this fact makes them less annoying to us of faith because they tend to be more respectful. But I guess in a way their situation is almost sadder, they truely have no faith and honestly, guiding such a person to God is quite difficult (worth trying though right?).
Atheism on the other hand… Is faith that there is no God, it’s faith in man. It’s a form of idol worship, even though in this novel case they claim there is no God. Rathery they profess that even if there was a God, they wouldn’t need him because look at what marvels we can work with our hands. We’ve cured disease, we’ve gone to the moon (and beyond with probes), worked all sorts of mechanical miricles, who needs God?
Well the problem with this view point is that it’s limited. This life isn’t about the here and now, it’s about preperation for the next. This is why I find it hard to beleive God will bring atheists into heaven. But of course, God is love, and forgiveness. So of course I’m in no position to truely say, only offer my speculations.
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KingTheoden
Guest
Yes, that is a more fleshed out description of atheism. To say atheism is ‘belief in nothing’ is a clumsy attempt at shorthand.
PS: Triad > Triangle
(well, maybe one day
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anon5216
Guest
Of course, some people become “atheists” because they simply can’t believe in other human’s claims of descriptions of God.
In effect, they are not denying God - just denying someone else’s claims or ideas of who, what, why, when or where regarding something claimed as ‘God’.
From this perspective, following or believing any of the writings, ideas and mental images regarding ‘God’ is just a form of idol worship.
Without the direct personal experience of God, all you have are yours or someone else’s mental and/or emotional symbols, or images of God - mental/emotional idolatry.
Perhaps at a certain point in one’s spiritual development, a form of atheism - as in profoundly questioning one’s own, as well as established, images of God - is indispensable to further spiritual growth.
In effect, they are not denying God - just denying someone else’s claims or ideas of who, what, why, when or where regarding something claimed as ‘God’.
From this perspective, following or believing any of the writings, ideas and mental images regarding ‘God’ is just a form of idol worship.
Without the direct personal experience of God, all you have are yours or someone else’s mental and/or emotional symbols, or images of God - mental/emotional idolatry.
Perhaps at a certain point in one’s spiritual development, a form of atheism - as in profoundly questioning one’s own, as well as established, images of God - is indispensable to further spiritual growth.
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steve_b
Guest
Seems you confuse terminologies. Atheism, agnosticism, incredulity, etc
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God provided truth about Himself in scripture and eyewitness accounts. Anything written or spoken that contradicts this account, has to provide credible proof its denial .
There WERE direct experiences, and eyewitnesses to His resurrection from the dead. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, as Paul said, our faith is in vain and we who believe, are to be the most pitied souls on the planet.
As I said in an earlier post
God draws everyone. No exceptions. A person might get the particulars wrong, but NO one alive is excluded from this draw. The harder one resists this draw in this life, the stronger God draws them with grace. There is no double standard for Atheists and Christians. Therefore, as scripture says, only a fool can say from his heart, God doesn’t exist. [Ps 14:1] Why? Because God makes Himself known to all, such that there is no excuse one can give that God doesn’t exist. [Rm 1:20]
Therefore, in the end, no one sent to hell can claim they were NOT given an opportunity to believe. They resisted Him till the end.
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cajhockey
Guest
There will not be atheists in heaven but there might be some people in heaven that were atheists on earth. Once your in heaven you cant deny the existence of heaven.
I think the question someone asked though was really good.
What if someone was raised with equal teachings of Muslim and Christianity and just decided to be a Muslim, or 60 % teaching in muslim, 40% Christianity.
You cant say they never heard of Christianity but they were still influenced by other religions.
I think the question someone asked though was really good.
What if someone was raised with equal teachings of Muslim and Christianity and just decided to be a Muslim, or 60 % teaching in muslim, 40% Christianity.
You cant say they never heard of Christianity but they were still influenced by other religions.
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anon5216
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btw, please don’t misinterpret my positions as opposing religion or Catholicism in particular.
I definitely believe that Catholicism can be a very effective spiritual path, as proven (to my satisfaction anyway) by the lives of various saints of the caliber of Padre Pio.
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steve_b
Guest
If God made Himself impossible to find, with zero revelation from Him, teaching and learning about him would be as fruitful as learning at the feet of a Canary.
But God doesn’t make Himself unknown. And He does reveal Himself to us. As Paul says, He makes it abundantly clear to EVERYONE such that no one has an excuse for not believing God exists.
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- 2 Pet 1:16-21 "16 we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17* For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, * with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
- Rm 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20* Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;
a:
From the Catechism
**2089 ***Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Ignorance
**1792 **Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
**1791 **This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
**1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
**2104 **“All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.” This duty derives from “the very dignity of the human person.” It does not contradict a “sincere respect” for different religions which frequently “reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,” nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians “to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith.”
Some people look for excuses not to believe, because it’s inconvenient to their lifestyle.
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