R
rjward1775
Guest
That particular bit sounds like you were either being wry or wholly unaware of the story.
- Status
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
of course I’m aware of the story
B
breadlife
Guest
The original manuscript argument does’t quit fly since the same can be applied to much ancient literature with much less credible history. God isn’t a puppet master. Use logic to describe how you have a coscience? I am not somone who rolled off the turnip truck. You imply that us Catholics or religious don’t use logic and reason. That simply is not true. There are somethings however that I don’t fully need to understand for them to be true. To expect otherwise is illogical. Either of can prove God’s existance. To me that makes perfect sense now. Why would the creator need the created to prove his existance. He only asks for our choice, our trust and our love. All things are made possible. Go deeper into the beginning into the fabric of what we experience as real and ask yourself how this can be.
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
of course when you’re trying to prove the extraordinary it requires extraordinary proof. In other words tales of Roman’s fighting Germans doesn’t require the same level of proof as tales of a god who split the red sea, turned the Nile into blood, destroyed Sodom, flooded the earth, god-men who rose from the dead, etc.
R
rjward1775
Guest
Like the fable of the Trojan war?
Heinrich Schliemann took those stories in the Illiad to be true and used the story to discover the actual location of Troy. This is an older document that came from a preliterate society and it retained enough fidelity to allow the use of the poem as a map.
I cite this as an example of a document with no original extant copies that retained high fidelity.
Heinrich Schliemann took those stories in the Illiad to be true and used the story to discover the actual location of Troy. This is an older document that came from a preliterate society and it retained enough fidelity to allow the use of the poem as a map.
I cite this as an example of a document with no original extant copies that retained high fidelity.
J
josie_L
Guest
In 1858 in the grotto of Massabielle, near Lourdes, France, the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared 18 times to Bernadette Soubirous, a 14 year old peasant girl. She identified herself as The Immaculate Conception. She gave Bernadette a message for all: “Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world.” The Church investigated Bernadette’s claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Lourdes has since become one of the most famous shrines, attracting more than a million pilgrims each year. There have been thousands of miraculous cures at this shrine.
A Medical Bureau was established in 1882 to test the authenticity of the cures. The doctors include unbelievers as well as believers and any doctor is welcome to take part in the examination of the alleged cures. As many as 500 medical men of all faiths or no faith have taken advantage of the invitation each year.
**THE STORY OF GABRIEL GARGAM **
The case of Gabriel Gargam is probably one of the best known of all the thousands of cures at Lourdes, partly because he was so well known at the Shrine for half a century, partly because it was a twofold healing, spiritual and physical. Born in 1870 of good Catholic parents, he gave early promise of being a clever student and a fervent Catholic. The promise was not fulfilled in the most important respect for, at 15 years of age, he had already lost his faith. He obtained a position in the postal service and was carrying out his duties as a sorter in December of 1899, when the train on which he was traveling from Bordeaux to Paris collided with another train, running at 50 miles per hour. Gargam was thrown fifty two feet from the train. He lay in the snow, badly injured and unconscious for seven hours. He was paralyzed from the waist down. He was barely alive when lifted onto a stretcher. Taken to a hospital, his existence for some time was a living death. After eight months he had wasted away to a mere skeleton, weighing but seventy-eight pounds, although normally a big man. His feet became gangrenous. He could take no solid food and was obliged to take nourishment by a tube. Only once in twenty-four hours could he be fed even that way. He brought suit for damages against the railroad. The Appellate Court confirmed the verdict of the former courts and granted him 6,000 francs annually, and besides, an indemnity of 60,000 francs.
Gargam’s condition was pitiable in the extreme. He could not help himself even in the most trifling needs. Two trained nurses were needed day and night to assist him. That was Gabriel Gargam as he was after the accident, and as he would continue to be until death relieved him. About his desperate condition there could be no doubt. The railroad fought the case on every point. There was no room for deception or hearsay. Two courts attested to his condition, and the final payment of the railroad left the case a matter of record. Doctors testified that the man was a hopeless cripple for life, and their testimony was not disputed.
Previous to the accident Gargam had not been to Church for fifteen years. His aunt, who was a nun of the Order of the Sacred Heart, begged him to go to Lourdes. He refused. She continued her appeals to him to place himself in the hands of Our Lady of Lourdes. He was deaf to all her prayers. After continuous pleading of his mother he consented to go to Lourdes. It was now two years since the accident, and not for a moment had he left his bed all that time. He was carried on a stretcher to the train. The exertion caused him to faint, and for a full hour he was unconscious. They were on the point of abandoning the pilgrimage, as it looked as if he would die on the way, but the mother insisted, and the journey was made.
Arrived at Lourdes, he went to confession and received Holy Communion. There was no change in his condition. Later he was carried to the miraculous pool and tenderly placed in its waters – no effect. Rather a bad effect resulted, for the exertion threw him into a swoon and he lay apparently dead. After a time, as he did not revive, they thought him dead. Sorrowfully they wheeled the carriage back to the hotel. On the way back they saw the procession of the Blessed Sacrament approaching. They stood aside to let it pass, having placed a cloth over the face of the man whom they supposed to be dead.
As the priest passed carrying the Sacred Host, he pronounced Benediction over the sorrowful group around the covered body. Soon there was a movement from under the covering. To the amazement of the bystanders, the body raised itself to a sitting posture. While the family were looking on dumbfounded and the spectators gazed in amazement, Gargam said in a full, strong voice that he wanted to get up. They thought that it was a delirium before death, and tried to soothe him, but he was not to be restrained. He got up and stood erect, walked a few paces and said that he was cured. The multitude looked in wonder, and then fell on their knees and thanked God for this new sign of His power at the Shrine of His Blessed Mother. As Gargam had on him only invalid’s clothes, he returned to the carriage and was wheeled back to the hotel. There he was soon dressed, and proceeded to walk about as if nothing had ever ailed him. For two years hardly any food had passed his lips but now he sat down to the table and ate a hearty meal.
On August 20th, 1901, sixty prominent doctors examined Gargam. Without stating the nature of the cure, they pronounced him entirely cured. Gargam, out of gratitude to God in the Holy Eucharist and His Blessed Mother, consecrated himself to the service of the invalids at Lourdes.
A Medical Bureau was established in 1882 to test the authenticity of the cures. The doctors include unbelievers as well as believers and any doctor is welcome to take part in the examination of the alleged cures. As many as 500 medical men of all faiths or no faith have taken advantage of the invitation each year.
**THE STORY OF GABRIEL GARGAM **
The case of Gabriel Gargam is probably one of the best known of all the thousands of cures at Lourdes, partly because he was so well known at the Shrine for half a century, partly because it was a twofold healing, spiritual and physical. Born in 1870 of good Catholic parents, he gave early promise of being a clever student and a fervent Catholic. The promise was not fulfilled in the most important respect for, at 15 years of age, he had already lost his faith. He obtained a position in the postal service and was carrying out his duties as a sorter in December of 1899, when the train on which he was traveling from Bordeaux to Paris collided with another train, running at 50 miles per hour. Gargam was thrown fifty two feet from the train. He lay in the snow, badly injured and unconscious for seven hours. He was paralyzed from the waist down. He was barely alive when lifted onto a stretcher. Taken to a hospital, his existence for some time was a living death. After eight months he had wasted away to a mere skeleton, weighing but seventy-eight pounds, although normally a big man. His feet became gangrenous. He could take no solid food and was obliged to take nourishment by a tube. Only once in twenty-four hours could he be fed even that way. He brought suit for damages against the railroad. The Appellate Court confirmed the verdict of the former courts and granted him 6,000 francs annually, and besides, an indemnity of 60,000 francs.
Gargam’s condition was pitiable in the extreme. He could not help himself even in the most trifling needs. Two trained nurses were needed day and night to assist him. That was Gabriel Gargam as he was after the accident, and as he would continue to be until death relieved him. About his desperate condition there could be no doubt. The railroad fought the case on every point. There was no room for deception or hearsay. Two courts attested to his condition, and the final payment of the railroad left the case a matter of record. Doctors testified that the man was a hopeless cripple for life, and their testimony was not disputed.
Previous to the accident Gargam had not been to Church for fifteen years. His aunt, who was a nun of the Order of the Sacred Heart, begged him to go to Lourdes. He refused. She continued her appeals to him to place himself in the hands of Our Lady of Lourdes. He was deaf to all her prayers. After continuous pleading of his mother he consented to go to Lourdes. It was now two years since the accident, and not for a moment had he left his bed all that time. He was carried on a stretcher to the train. The exertion caused him to faint, and for a full hour he was unconscious. They were on the point of abandoning the pilgrimage, as it looked as if he would die on the way, but the mother insisted, and the journey was made.
Arrived at Lourdes, he went to confession and received Holy Communion. There was no change in his condition. Later he was carried to the miraculous pool and tenderly placed in its waters – no effect. Rather a bad effect resulted, for the exertion threw him into a swoon and he lay apparently dead. After a time, as he did not revive, they thought him dead. Sorrowfully they wheeled the carriage back to the hotel. On the way back they saw the procession of the Blessed Sacrament approaching. They stood aside to let it pass, having placed a cloth over the face of the man whom they supposed to be dead.
As the priest passed carrying the Sacred Host, he pronounced Benediction over the sorrowful group around the covered body. Soon there was a movement from under the covering. To the amazement of the bystanders, the body raised itself to a sitting posture. While the family were looking on dumbfounded and the spectators gazed in amazement, Gargam said in a full, strong voice that he wanted to get up. They thought that it was a delirium before death, and tried to soothe him, but he was not to be restrained. He got up and stood erect, walked a few paces and said that he was cured. The multitude looked in wonder, and then fell on their knees and thanked God for this new sign of His power at the Shrine of His Blessed Mother. As Gargam had on him only invalid’s clothes, he returned to the carriage and was wheeled back to the hotel. There he was soon dressed, and proceeded to walk about as if nothing had ever ailed him. For two years hardly any food had passed his lips but now he sat down to the table and ate a hearty meal.
On August 20th, 1901, sixty prominent doctors examined Gargam. Without stating the nature of the cure, they pronounced him entirely cured. Gargam, out of gratitude to God in the Holy Eucharist and His Blessed Mother, consecrated himself to the service of the invalids at Lourdes.
J
josie_L
Guest
There have been only 66 official proclamations of miracles at Lourdes since the miracles began. This may sound like so few that it is hardly worth claiming them, however, this is not the case. It is really a testimony to the rigor of the process and to the Chrch’s refusal to use the miracles as any sort of propaganda. If the claims were merely used to bolster propaganda of some sort one would think they would choose many more than this. But the requirements or so strict that only a few are accepted. There is actually a much larger pool of claims to choose from, and many more “remarkable” cases that did not make it because the documentation is just too difficult to get.
Marian Library (Ibid.)
“In the last one hundred years, over 6,500 individuals have reported cures to the Medical Bureau. Of these, at least 2,500 cases are considered truly remarkable, but they lack some requirement needed to allow them to advance to the next stage–witnesses, evidence, lack of agreement on the nature of the ailment. In the last twenty years, there have been reports of about twenty cases of extraordinary cures or healings, about one a year. Mr. Bély’s healing is the 66th cure occurring at Lourdes which has been officially recognized by ecclesiastical authorities. The recognition by church authorities has been a feature of Lourdes for a total of sixty- three years of its history.”
The Process of Verification
There are three stages:
1)Examination by Lourdes Medical Bureau.
[Ibid]
“The first occurs when the cured person is examined at the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Established in 1883, the Medical Bureau receives the testimony of the cured person, of the doctor and of those who accompanied the person to Lourdes. After the preliminary examination, the cured person is usually asked to return to Lourdes a year later for another examination. Many cases remain at this first level because of the difficulty of gathering the previous medical reports, a frequent occurrence with individuals who come from underdeveloped areas.”
- Cases passed to International Bureau.
“Sufficiently documented cases are passed on to the International Medical Bureau. Established in 1946, this bureau consists of medical doctors, psychiatrists, and experts in specific diseases. The criteria for recognizing a cure at Lourdes are the same as those proposed, in 1743, by the canonist Prospero Lambertini (the future Benedict XIV) regarding the miracle required for the beatification and the canonization of saints. The infirmity must have been serious and considered impossible to cure; no medication or treatment must have been given, which could possibly have caused the change; the cure must be sudden and complete, with no relapse. In a word, the cure must be unexplainable, that is, there is no human or natural factor which could have effected the cure. (The doctors at Lourdes speak only of inexplicable cures, not “miracles.”) If, in the opinion of the International Medical Committee, there is no natural explanation for the cure, the case is then referred to the bishop of the diocese in which the individual resides.”
3)Investigation by Diocesan Canonical committee.
(Ibid.)
"At present, the final stage in the process is the investigation by the diocesan canonical committee, appointed by the bishop of the diocese. In the early years of Lourdes, the final judgment appeared to rest with the doctors, so much so, that the second President of the Medical Bureau wrote, in 1892, that “the history of Lourdes has been written entirely by doctors.” In the twentieth century, church authorities have assumed a greater role in the discernment process. Although medical science has a role to play in their discernment, science alone cannot be the final arbiter. Since miracles are signs which point to something beyond, they belong to the order of faith. It is the Church’s prerogative to recognize these signs of faith. In addition, a miraculous cure is not simply an impersonal intervention of divine power, but a gift to the individual, frequently accompanied by greater faith, charity, peace. For that reason, the canonical examination should also consider the individual’s disposition at the time of the cure and religious attitudes which are part of his or her life.
The final word belongs to the bishop of the diocese, who, as did Bishop Dagens, recognizes the miraculous cure “in the name of the Church.”
The Lourdes Medical Bureau and the International Bureau hold Symposia and conferences at which medical experts of all kinds present papers on the data of the miracle calims. Both philosophical and medical questions are addressed. The papers of top academic quality and the discussions are very important. There is a very interesting section on the Marian Newletter site about this, it is well worth reading, but we cannot go into that here. I urge the reader to click on that link and consider all that is said. One of the major issues addressed is the meaning of miralces. The Catholic chruch does not regard miracles as proof of the existence of God, rather, it understands them as a message, a sign form God, and the Pope has decalired that miracles are a call to prayer and to seek God. In light of this realization, I present a few examples of hearlings from Lourdes:
doxa.ws/other/Miracles2.html
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
The fact is Josie there have been around 300 million visitors to Lourdes. Given those numbers even several thousand healings would be unremarkable. There are “remarkable” healings every day around the world, which are verified yet not attributed to the workings of a divine force. As I said previously severely ill or injured people sometimes get better against all odds & in many of those cases medical science has no explanation (and these extraordinary healings are not limited to the religious).
You say this is evidence of a god, I say it only shows us we have much more to learn about our biology.
You say this is evidence of a god, I say it only shows us we have much more to learn about our biology.
J
josie_L
Guest
Ok, Francis, how would you explain my situation, I was in an induced coma for the first critical week during my illness, how I was saved from dying? I don’t recall praying or helping myself in any way. You think I just spontaneously healed (which I didn’t) or how about the doctors, could they have done anything more than pump me up with antibiotics in those first few days when I was on the brink of dying (remember, I had a priest give me my last rites)? I do remember however my family telling me that they prayed constantly and with the rosary together, I had tons of people praying for me. I believe it was their prayers that helped me out of my situation. God saved me!!!
J
josie_L
Guest
What we know of biology is and has been confirmed, I had pus (as disgusting as this sounds) on the exterior of both my lungs (the sac was filled to the brim), Francis, a fact that was confirmed by the microbiologist, who with the doctors that were taking care of me knew my chances for survival were iffy at best. The thing is, this is not the only event that confirms that God is working in my life, I have many other stories which I could relate to you. If you want to know more about this, I will gladly tell you, but you’d have to PM me.
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
well I don’t want to speculate or comment on your own personal experiences. I’m sure we won’t agree on this issue (so we’ll have to agree to disagree I suppose)
J
josie_L
Guest
Ok, then, what if you had personal experiences of a kind that were hard to explain, almost supernatural, how would you explain the phenomena? For example, what if everytime you prayed for something, it came true, or what if you’ve noticed that during your life things would happen to prevent you from being harmed?well I don’t want to speculate or comment on your own personal experiences. I’m sure we won’t agree on this issue (so we’ll have to agree to disagree I suppose)
I was in a situation when I was a young girl of thirteen wherein coming home from school I noticed a truck that just happened to stop near to where I was walking. There were two men inside this truck (now I was not walking in an area that was desolate, quite the contrary), has I walked near to them, something like a voice in my head told me to move off the sidewalk away from the truck, as I did this, one of the men, not having noticed my change in course, came out of the truck with his arms outstretched as if he was expecting to grab me. I saw the look on his face when he noticed that I had moved away. They began to follow me, at this point in time I knew something was wrong. I kept no pretense up, and just ran like the wind, when I looked behind me there was one of the men running after me. Francis, I can’t tell you how terrified I was, I knew he was going to do me harm, so I didn’t stop running until I reached home. If I hadn’t moved off that sidewalk, I know what would have happened to me. This is one example, I have many more.
R
rjward1775
Guest
HEre is an interesting story as recounted by Isaac Asimov about a series of very unlikely events that many would attribute to Divine intervention. Was it or wasn’t it?
We can’t know. Your faith (in either direction) will dictate your feelings on this.
Usually, your previously held belief is merely affirmed by anything ‘iffy’ you hear. Ok, the full text is too long, so I can’t post it. Trust me though, the story is fascinating. Very unlikely chain of events.
Here goes ‘Pompey and Circumstance’.
perso.ch/fabio.soso/science/docs_eng/Pompeo.rtf
Here’s how it came up on the google search.
http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:Cc3E4RVtd3IJ:www.perso.ch/fabio.soso/science/docs_eng/Pompeo.rtf+“pompey+and+circumstance”+“queer+religion”&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
We can’t know. Your faith (in either direction) will dictate your feelings on this.
Usually, your previously held belief is merely affirmed by anything ‘iffy’ you hear. Ok, the full text is too long, so I can’t post it. Trust me though, the story is fascinating. Very unlikely chain of events.
Here goes ‘Pompey and Circumstance’.
perso.ch/fabio.soso/science/docs_eng/Pompeo.rtf
Here’s how it came up on the google search.
http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:Cc3E4RVtd3IJ:www.perso.ch/fabio.soso/science/docs_eng/Pompeo.rtf+“pompey+and+circumstance”+“queer+religion”&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
if you insist on my opinion … sure, there’s thousands of little choice events in our lives that we could pick up on and imagine the intervention of a god. Chances are your parents or teachers who no doubt warned you to be wary of strangers were behind the little voice in your head. See the problem with your reasoning is – what do you say to the small child who was kidnapped, raped, or even killed? Why wasn’t god protecting them? Does that mean they’re damed?
The fact is we can convince ourselves of virtually anything. Once we’re absolutely convinced of something it becomes part of our psychy. It’s one more filter we view the world through & it factors into how we perceive reality. I’ve had some close calls as a kid. One time when I was 8 I was hit by a car (but a very minor accident …the car had virtually stopped by the time it hit me). Of course my very Catholic mom thanked god (and probably said something like thankfully he was watching over you). Of course in reality I just got lucky!
J
josie_L
Guest
There was no reason for me to be leery of those two men (how could I have possibly known what they were up to, being that they were in a truck that just happened to park close to where I was walking), I mean I was just walking home like I normally did every other day, whatever compelled me at that point in time to move away from my normal path, did so, without any preconceived notions or fears on my part.if you insist on my opinion … sure, there’s thousands of little choice events in our lives that we could pick up on and imagine the intervention of a god. Chances are your parents or teachers who no doubt warned you to be wary of strangers were behind the little voice in your head. See the problem with your reasoning is – what do you say to the small child who was kidnapped, raped, or even killed? Why wasn’t god protecting them? Does that mean they’re damed?
The fact is we can convince ourselves of virtually anything. Once we’re absolutely convinced of something it becomes part of our psyche. It’s one more filter we view the world through & it factors into how we perceive reality. I’ve had some close calls as a kid. One time when I was 8 I was hit by a car (but a very minor accident …the car had virtually stopped by the time it hit me). Of course my very Catholic mom thanked god (and probably said something like thankfully he was watching over you). Of course in reality I just got lucky!
I cannot explain why I was saved while others weren’t, but that still does not negate the fact that I heard something which forewarned me. I would not necessarily relegate this to a benevolent God, however, how many times Francis can one chalk things down to coincidence (or choice), how many times can you see the answer to your prayers standing before your eyes without feeling awe at the fact that, yes, there is a God.
I have other stories, Francis, here’s another: I was Sixteen and this time, I was walking home from my cousins’s house, along the way I met a friend of mine purely by chance, he decided to walk me home, I was just crossing a green light, knowing the cars had to stop, when all of sudden a car which I had not seen sped past the red light like a bat out of hell, I was literally pulled by the back of my shirt by my friend who had just managed to take me out of harm’s way, had I not met him (my friend) I would have been killed, that’s how fast that car was going.
P.S. That part in bold applies to you too.
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
Yeah you’re right … had you not met that friend you could have been struck by the car. It occurs to me that when I was younger (and even today) sometimes I see a crowd of people on a street or something that I sense might be out of place & I move to avoid it. Who knows whether or not in one of those instances I might have avoided something bad happening. Do I think it was a god who moved me to avoid potential trouble?
I guess we all view these things differently?
B
breadlife
Guest
That’s what you say but extraordinary proof us not required, only choice. The question goes deeper than historical validation. It is impossible to prove anyway. To use logic as you say to disprove thesim as you say still doesn’t make it true or false. Where did your conscience come from?
B
breadlife
Guest
I really don’t think arguing either way for God’s intervention or not is relavent. God being all powerful could do anything I suppose but it isn’t necessary for him to be some kind of puppet master. Private revalation is private revalation. No one knows if the Old Testament stories are like news reports of literal events or stories to explain the story of salvation history. Sometimes I feel that God shares a moment of clarity when our heart and mind are open to it. I chose to believe and I think anything is possible in God and I don’t need to understand it all to believe. My life is much better believing than it was not. Suffering occurs nonetheless.if you insist on my opinion … sure, there’s thousands of little choice events in our lives that we could pick up on and imagine the intervention of a god. Chances are your parents or teachers who no doubt warned you to be wary of strangers were behind the little voice in your head. See the problem with your reasoning is – what do you say to the small child who was kidnapped, raped, or even killed? Why wasn’t god protecting them? Does that mean they’re damed?
The fact is we can convince ourselves of virtually anything. Once we’re absolutely convinced of something it becomes part of our psychy. It’s one more filter we view the world through & it factors into how we perceive reality. I’ve had some close calls as a kid. One time when I was 8 I was hit by a car (but a very minor accident …the car had virtually stopped by the time it hit me). Of course my very Catholic mom thanked god (and probably said something like thankfully he was watching over you). Of course in reality I just got lucky!
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
well, sure … but we could choose to do anything I suppose. IMO human conscience is not a manifestation of anything paranormal. Sure, there are many workings of the human mind that are not well understood by science, but still the same it’s not necessary to imagine a divine hand plays into our conscience. What is conscience? A sense of right and wrong combined with emotion, perhaps a sense of altruism, etc.? Nothing here is even unique to humans. Other mammals have emotions, other mammals have what you can call a primative construct of tribal rules and customs, and other mammals even have a sense of altruism (albeit it’s extremely limited). What separates us? Our brains are larger & therefore each of those traits are exemplified in us. You might say it boils down to leraned behavior – our brains are larger so we learn and retain more than any other creature.
As far as the problem of evil and suffering goes – when I was a practicing Christian I felt strongly that Calvin answered these questions the best. The bible really does say god elects some to the exclusion of others. It frames divine providence in such absolute terms that while we maintain a free will only insofar as is necessary to hold us accountable for wrongdoing … nothing happens (or doesn’t happen) without the will of god concerned.
So I never had a problem resolving this question (I just didn’t resolve it the Catholic way). I will say Augustine also did an excellent job with this (but I was sort of on the fence as to whether or not Augustine overreached) according to the bible.
J
josie_L
Guest
So are you saying that God doesn’t intervene? And if you do believe that God intervenes how is this not relevant? Praying is a form of God’s intervention in our lives, is it not?
- Status