Atheist's question stumps me

[ILoveTheLordGod]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

 

[mangy_dog]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

Just a suggestion,

My approach with atheists is always the same: Is the answer to this question going to change anything in your mind? Are you suddenly going to convert to Catholicism? How much evidence or proof or documentation is enough for you?

I can usually discern when a question (from an atheist) is just derisive argument or whether its a legitimate quest for the truth that is poking at their conscience.

 

[Solus_Christus]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

I would echo mangy dog’s response. If this individual, however, is really seeking the truth then I might start by asking some questions of my own. For example, if Moses was just a dreamer, then how exactly was it that the Isrealites were freed from the yoke of Egyptian slavery? Also, there is a fundamental flaw in the premise of the question since Moses only wrote the books of the Law, the Torah. The rest of the Old and New Testament also describe the direct activities of God on earth, and were not written by Moses.

 

[Pieman333272]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

The unconscious can create only images and ideas based on what it already knows. Moses’ ideas were revolutionary, unknown to either himself, the Jews, or the Egyptians. There’s no way he unconsciously fabricated the experiences because there was nothing to fabricate them from!

 

[Samboyant]

It is important to remember how many of the events spoken about in the bible have zero evidence to support them. I think their purpose is more to show a general theme than of “read this and analyze each sentence, each paragraph, by itself!”

 

[Insight]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

Where did he get the two gold tablets on top of the mountain to throw at the Israelites? How is it that parts of Pharaoh’s chariots found in Red Sea?

wnd.com/?pageId=19382

God Bless

 

[Pieman333272]

It is important to remember how many of the events spoken about in the bible have zero evidence to support them. I think their purpose is more to show a general theme than of “read this and analyze each sentence, each paragraph, by itself!”

It is important to remember how many atheist concepts have zero evidence to support them. I think the purpose of atheist posts is to show a general theme of “every other sentence is either irrelevant, personal attack, or naked assertion”.

In all seriousness, I can’e even understand where your get the idea you mention in your second sentence and how that follows from no evidence.

 

[crazzeto]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

The problem is the consitancy of revelation, from Christ back to the begining (gen 1) there is a consitant story told. More over, the Pentituch (or Tora), that is the first 5 books of the bible were all written by Moses.

A man, whom by his own admission (after all, he penned his own story) was not necesasrly a well spoken man (unlike the movie portray). His first objection when God selects him is that he is unable to speak well, and thus will be easily overcome by the objections of his own people. That is why his brother Arron is selected to be his mouth peice when speaking to the Jews.

No, I think it’s quite a bit more believeable that God actually talked to Moses and that the Holy Spirit inspired him to write Genesis, Exosdus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

 

[starsmurf]

Using arguments of belief will not work with someone who doesn’t believe in God.

As to Moses being the only author, that is totally wrong. The first five books were written over about 500 years. Genesis was started by scribes in the court of King Solomon and only took the form we know after the return from exile in Babylon (that’s according to my Catholic Bible). Moses having “dreams” or “hallucinations” would be only a tiny part of that. The books written by the prophets or their followers give us examples of individuals’ personal experience of God and His action in their lives. The New Testament gives us letters and books written by the very first Christians, telling of their experiences and thoughts.

Your friend won’t accept Biblical evidence or arguments as long as they don’t believe in God. As faith is a grace, pray for your friend and ask God to give them that gift. Prepare them for it by gently asking their reasons for not believing in God, in a way that makes it clear that you are asking out of interest, not as an attempt to convert them. If they have wrong ideas about aspects of the Bible, the Church etc, then gently give them the correct explanation but do so in a respectful way. If the course of the conversation allows, speak of the joy and peace that you have found in the practice of your faith. At no point try to convert the person or say something like “you’re wrong”, that’ll only push them further away. If such a conversation is not possible or is rejected, then simply pray. God can do anything.

 

[crazzeto]

Using arguments of belief will not work with someone who doesn’t believe in God.

As to Moses being the only author, that is totally wrong. The first five books were written over about 500 years. Genesis was started by scribes in the court of King Solomon and only took the form we know after the return from exile in Babylon (that’s according to my Catholic Bible). Moses having “dreams” or “hallucinations” would be only a tiny part of that. The books written by the prophets or their followers give us examples of individuals’ personal experience of God and His action in their lives. The New Testament gives us letters and books written by the very first Christians, telling of their experiences and thoughts.

Your friend won’t accept Biblical evidence or arguments as long as they don’t believe in God. As faith is a grace, pray for your friend and ask God to give them that gift. Prepare them for it by gently asking their reasons for not believing in God, in a way that makes it clear that you are asking out of interest, not as an attempt to convert them. If they have wrong ideas about aspects of the Bible, the Church etc, then gently give them the correct explanation but do so in a respectful way. If the course of the conversation allows, speak of the joy and peace that you have found in the practice of your faith. At no point try to convert the person or say something like “you’re wrong”, that’ll only push them further away. If such a conversation is not possible or is rejected, then simply pray. God can do anything.

So where exactly did you get your thoughts on the authorship of the pentituch from? Certainly no Catholic source I"m aware of suggests the authorship you put forward.

 

[EricFilmer]

He asked me
“What if Moses only saw God in his dreams, hallucinations or just simply in his thoughts? The direct activities of God on earth seem to be all written by Moses.”

Yes it’s by faith that we believe, but what would be the best way to explain?

If I understand this atheist correctly, what he is trying to say is that Moses may have somehow created God and the accounts of God all in his head. Therefore, when Moses wrote the Pentateuch, it was all fictional delusions. But because Moses actually believed it, and other people believed Moses, it became accepted as authentic history. So Adam & Eve, Noah, Abraham, etc. (and the miraculous accounts of God associated with them) did not actually exist, and Moses was the one who created Judaism (and, by extension, Christianity and Islam).

The error in this line of reasoning can be seen once one understands that the accounts conveyed in the Book of Genesis can be objectively demonstrated to predate Moses. Moses is traditionally credited as being the first person to put the accounts of Genesis into writing, but he did not learn of these accounts through divine inspiration.

And let me be clear about what I am saying here. Yes, Moses did receive many things through divine inspiration, and he recorded the first books of the Bible under divine inspiration, but the stories of Genesis predated him.

These stories are as old as the events they describe, and were initially passed down from generation to generation through oral tradition. In order to assist in the memorization of large amounts of information, the stories contained various word and sentence structures to help people to remember it correctly. Such techniques included strings of matching root words, chiastic structures, inclusios and many others. These things were preserved in a text format when the oral tradition was transformed into written tradition. Therefore, this is an objective, textual demonstration backing up the claim that the accounts of Genesis preexisting the time of Moses. Any credible historian would accept this as very strong evidence, if not full-blown proof, of a previous oral tradition.

In light of all this, the God that Moses knew was likewise the God known earlier to Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac & Rebekah, Jacob , etc. Going back to the statement the atheist said, does he think that all these people, over the course of many centuries, were having the same “dreams, hallucinations or thoughts”? And, of course, we see in the Bible that many others continued to have interactions with this same God (as do still other people up to this day).

 

[Samboyant]

It is important to remember how many atheist concepts have zero evidence to support them. I think the purpose of atheist posts is to show a general theme of “every other sentence is either irrelevant, personal attack, or naked assertion”.

In all seriousness, I can’e even understand where your get the idea you mention in your second sentence and how that follows from no evidence.

I am not an atheist as much as I am an a-theist (more of an agnostic. I dont assert any positive belief that there is no god). And I get the idea I mention in my second sentence by thinking of the bible as literature that was poorly translated. We do not have any original manuscripts of any kind -old ones yes, but original or close to original, no.
Also: what is the point of a new covenant if it does not replace the old one? Jesus “replaces” (rephrases) the commandments into two. Jesus also, when avoiding temptation in the desert in the gospel according to Matthew, is tempted by “satan” with scripture. Scripture can be twisted in many ways to fulfill what you wish to be true, or what others wish to be true. I believe that Jesus taught love and acceptance and taught against passing any form of judgement on others -I also believe that he taught the basic tenets of Catholicism. Catholicism is the most reasonable form of Christianity today, but many people pervert it into something conservative. Liberation theology and social justice and modernism are all blessings to the earth -and I don’t even believe in the idea of blessings!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

.

No, I think it’s quite a bit more believeable that God actually talked to Moses and that the Holy Spirit inspired him to write Genesis, Exosdus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

According to scholars (e.g., the translators of the RSV, Peter Kreeft), it would be more accurate to state that the Torah or Penteteuch (five teuchs or books) was written under the influence of Moses. Father Abraham lived c. 1850 B.C.; the Exodus probably occurred c. 1250 B.C. The first word of the OT was not written down until the time of David and Solomon c. 1000 B.C. (It was not Genesis, BTW.) For a very long time, the Torah was oral.

As a former agnostic, then atheist, I would say that most comments about religion from an atheist are designed to show his/her intellectual superiority to you weak, gullible believers.

Jim Dandy

 

[Solus_Christus]

And I get the idea I mention in my second sentence by thinking of the bible as literature that was poorly translated.

Poorly translated or poorly copied? The Jewish scribes were notorious for their fastidiousness. We have very good confidence in the faithfulness of the copies. Because of this, it is not at all difficult to come by a sound translation.

We do not have any original manuscripts of any kind -old ones yes, but original or close to original, no.

Neither have we original copies of Homer’s Illiad, Sophocles’ seven plays, or the works of Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Thucydides, or Plato, but I do not see the validity of these constantly being challenged by detractors.

Liberation theology and social justice and modernism are all blessings to the earth -and I don’t even believe in the idea of blessings!

The Catholic Church (thankfully) does not espouse Liberation Theology.

 

[Pieman333272]

I am not an atheist as much as I am an a-theist (more of an agnostic. I dont assert any positive belief that there is no god). And I get the idea I mention in my second sentence by thinking of the bible as literature that was poorly translated.

Well you can believe (or not, or suspend judgement on) whatever you want. There is still and extreme amount of evidence for the Gospels as truth which you are either dismissing or ignoring.

We do not have any original manuscripts of any kind -old ones yes, but original or close to original, no.

Doesn’t matter. We don’t have that for any ancient historian, but you believe what they say, don’t you?

Also: what is the point of a new covenant if it does not replace the old one? Jesus “replaces” (rephrases) the commandments into two.

You have a bad misunderstanding of the facts if that’s what you think. He says there are 2 main commandments, in addition to other ones. The New Covenant DID replace the Old Covenant. As an example, see the Sabbath. Jesus said work on the Sabbath was fine. The OC said the opposite.

Jesus also, when avoiding temptation in the desert in the gospel according to Matthew, is tempted by “satan” with scripture. Scripture can be twisted in many ways to fulfill what you wish to be true, or what others wish to be true.

Indeed it can, but it can also be historically proven what was meant.

I believe that Jesus taught love and acceptance and taught against passing any form of judgement on others -I also believe that he taught the basic tenets of Catholicism.

I agree. However, note that not judging is not the same as not debating online, if you’re going to lead into that.

Catholicism is the most reasonable form of Christianity today, but many people pervert it into something conservative.

It is the most reasonable form of Christianity, but was taught as and is conservative. Many people pervert it into something liberal.

Liberation theology and social justice and modernism are all blessings to the earth -and I don’t even believe in the idea of blessings!

That’s just your opinion. Not only that, but many (not all) of these ideas are the polar opposites of what Jesus taught - in fact, your argument about twisting scripture backfires on you here!

 

[Samboyant]

Certain facets of the church definitely do support liberation theology.

 

[crazzeto]

According to scholars (e.g., the translators of the RSV, Peter Kreeft), it would be more accurate to state that the Torah or Penteteuch (five teuchs or books) was written under the influence of Moses. Father Abraham lived c. 1850 B.C.; the Exodus probably occurred c. 1250 B.C. The first word of the OT was not written down until the time of David and Solomon c. 1000 B.C. (It was not Genesis, BTW.) For a very long time, the Torah was oral.

As a former agnostic, then atheist, I would say that most comments about religion from an atheist are designed to show his/her intellectual superiority to you weak, gullible believers.

Jim Dandy

Regarding your first comments,

It maybe some scholars feel this way, however my own personal taste at least is to stick with the affirmed truth taught by the church (and in this case by the Jews first).

regarding the second, this is a given… which is why it’s fun to fustrate them by making them play by our rules… I find more often than not the athiest argument looks a lot more like

Assume all my views on the natural world are correct, now prove God’s existence.

 

[Pieman333272]

Certain facets of the church definitely do support liberation theology.

Such as… :ehh:

 

[Samboyant]

Such as… :ehh:

Certain Jesuits.

 

[Pieman333272]

Certain Jesuits.

Another example of misinterpretations. Those Jesuits denied or misinterpreted the Church’s teaching - see Malachi Martin’s The Jesuits. I’m very pro-Jesuit but believe that those in it who support liberation theology are both wrong and defaming to the order.