Atheists Seek to Erect ‘No Gods’ Display at Arkansas Capitol After Ten Commandments Approved

  • Thread starter Thread starter Son_of_Niall
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you think animals don’t have morals… well, watch!
Here’s the capuchin monkeys experiment alone:
youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0

and here is the full TED talk “Moral behavior in animals”:
ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals?language=en
lol, I enjoyed watching that, thanks for sharing it.

I also don’t believe it throws a spanner in the works nor debunks what C.S. Lewis is saying in the least, I believe because animals can share a moral law on a lower plane (Not the same as ourselves because of our intellectual capacity for the moral law) I believe the very existence of the moral law and objective moral values gives credence to the argument C.S. Lewis is I believe trying to make.

Furthermore, C.S. Lewis himself was a proponent of Evolution, even though I personally disagree with the Darwinian Evolution often espoused.

I’m currently reading a book on it at the moment but I haven’t finished yet. 😉

Thank you

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
My apologies for offering such a weak response regarding proof.
It’s fine. 🙂
I will try and find a link to a documentary on the work with primates Until then I believe Frans de Waal’s research on primates and morality will pique your interest. In the documentary it also reveals research that shows humans are not the only species that are self aware.
Thank you

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
lol, I enjoyed watching that, thanks for sharing it.
That’s what the internet is for! 😉
I also don’t believe it throws a spanner in the works nor debunks what C.S. Lewis is saying in the least, I believe because animals can share a moral law on a lower plane (Not the same as ourselves because of our intellectual capacity for the moral law) I believe the very existence of the moral law and objective moral values gives credence to the argument C.S. Lewis is I believe trying to make.
Well, of course, one can interpret it that way… but I think Lewis, not being aware of morality in animals, only ascribed morality to humans and then talked about “human law”. It’s like the guy in the TED talk says: philosophers need to rethink some things…
Furthermore, C.S. Lewis himself was a proponent of Evolution, even though I personally disagree with the Darwinian Evolution often espoused.
You disagree?
How so?
I’m currently reading a book on it at the moment but I haven’t finished yet. 😉
That is often the best way to learn about stuff others have done or thought about. 👍
 
Well, of course, one can interpret it that way… but I think Lewis, not being aware of morality in animals, only ascribed morality to humans and then talked about “human law”. It’s like the guy in the TED talk says: philosophers need to rethink some things…
I don’t believe he talked about ‘human law’ but ‘moral law’ whether certain animals are capable of knowing it to certain degrees due to their intellectual capacity or not.
You disagree?
How so?
A better way to explain it would be macro and micro evolution, I believe micro evolution, but I believe extrapolating it from the small scale onto the large when it comes to evolution outside of species and back to a kind of primordial soup is quite unsound.
That is often the best way to learn about stuff others have done or thought about. 👍
Yup 👍

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
and here is the full TED talk “Moral behavior in animals”:
ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals?language=en
I finished watching this one, and I don’t take issue with any of it accept for some of the things said in the last 10 minutes or so and the way he disregards philosophy with the poor examples provided and how his demonstration was such a ‘blow’ to their philosophy.

Furthermore, I believe he espoused or insinuated some of the very same things C.S. Lewis rightly warns about in several of his books (or videos I linked) which I believe are not ‘debunked’ in any way due to these experiments and findings.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I don’t believe he talked about ‘human law’ but ‘moral law’ whether certain animals are capable of knowing it to certain degrees due to their intellectual capacity or not.
He called it “human law”, if I recall correctly… but yes, he meant moral law.
A better way to explain it would be macro and micro evolution, I believe micro evolution, but I believe extrapolating it from the small scale onto the large when it comes to evolution outside of species and back to a kind of primordial soup is quite unsound.
Why unsound?
It explains the observed diversity, as those micro-changes accumulate and, given enough time and generations, the species evolves… surely, this is but one mechanism - I think that the Modern evolutionary synthesis is how the “darwinian evolution” theory has become when you take into account all the several different mechanisms through which species can evolve.

Here’s an analogy of the same sort of mechanism:
i.imgur.com/xWpvw.jpg
I finished watching this one, and I don’t take issue with any of it accept for some of the things said in the last 10 minutes or so and the way he disregards philosophy with the poor examples provided and how his demonstration was such a ‘blow’ to their philosophy.

Furthermore, I believe he espoused or insinuated some of the very same things C.S. Lewis rightly warns about in several of his books (or videos I linked) which I believe are not ‘debunked’ in any way due to these experiments and findings.
It broadens the scope to social animals, hinting, in my view, at an evolutionary survival requirement… or, in your view, at a global moral law giver which is also interested in the behavior of animals… (am I wrong in this assumption of your view?)
 
In regards to the titled thread, I worry about it because it takes the form of a demonstration over not favoring certain ‘beliefs’ over others, when in actuality it intends to subtly and cunningly simply replace them with others.

I would prefer the objection to the statue of the Ten Commandments, not one regarding favoritism of a certain religion, but one that addressed what exactly of the Ten Commandments that one objected to and wished removed.
Agreed…
The main problem I have is that I find that Atheism holds a whole set of beliefs based around it’s world view that is instead ‘favored’ in it’s place under the guise of not favoring any religion.

I believe many atheists take issue with atheism being labelled a religion, but I believe the facts indicate that it is quite the same as a religion, given that it carries with it a certain set of beliefs based on it’s world view, which in turn carry with it very real consequences like, Abortion, Euthanasia and Eugenics etc etc.
I am not quite sure I follow this reasoning…as an atheist I am against abortion for the simple reason that it does not appear to be an informed choice. The current practice of withholding ultrasound images to those seeking abortion…the failure to provide sufficient counseling to same…as well as the entire consideration that abortion appears little more than a contraceptive measure…these issues should give one pause in endorsing such an allegedly innocuous procedure…

Given there appears to be no specific dogma that the atheist must follow it might be reasoned to be difficult to consider it a proper religion in and of itself. I am prepared to accept that it might be on a par with religious belief, but not an actual religion.
So I believe the argument put forward, that it is wrong to favor a religion on state property, is most often a guise to favor another religion, namely Secularism and Atheism, which carries with it simply another set of dogmatic beliefs.

The other issue I have with it, is that in another place, a similar thing was done where the Atheists and Secularists were allowed to also put up a monument, and when the monument was revealed, It wasn’t simply dedicated to nothing or to disbelief, nor did it espouse the same or similar morality as espoused in the Ten Commandments just without it’s dedication to God, instead it was a monument erected specifically to attack the one that was already there, quote it out of context and misrepresent it. It was malicious.

Such as the following - i.imgur.com/21SGvyD.png

Anyway, these are my views on it at this stage, I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
It is unfortunate that some choose malice when fairness was offered and decency expected…but atheists do not speak in concert. It has often been difficult even to have atheists all subscribe to a subset of humanistic standards…as was evidenced by the division among atheists with regards to the Atheist Plus movement…
 
Agreed…

I am not quite sure I follow this reasoning…as an atheist I am against abortion for the simple reason that it does not appear to be an informed choice. The current practice of withholding ultrasound images to those seeking abortion…the failure to provide sufficient counseling to same…as well as the entire consideration that abortion appears little more than a contraceptive measure…these issues should give one pause in endorsing such an allegedly innocuous procedure…
🙂 I’m very happy about that. May God Bless You.

I was reading Richard Dawkins book (I recognize he doesn’t represent all Atheists) regarding Abortion, and how he justified Abortion sent shivers up my spine, and for the most part because I believe with an Atheistic, Darwinian world view his reasoning makes complete sense.

I believe his views are totally wrong and devastatingly harmful, but also completely logical and practical coming from an Atheistic, Darwinian view of life.
Given there appears to be no specific dogma that the atheist must follow it might be reasoned to be difficult to consider it a proper religion in and of itself. I am prepared to accept that it might be on a par with religious belief, but not an actual religion.
I agree with that. I would more liken it to those who say they are ‘Christian’ but not part of any organized religion.
It is unfortunate that some choose malice when fairness was offered and decency expected…but atheists do not speak in concert. It has often been difficult even to have atheists all subscribe to a subset of humanistic standards…as was evidenced by the division among atheists with regards to the Atheist Plus movement…
I agree.

(My apologies for taking a while to get back to your post)

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
He called it “human law”, if I recall correctly… but yes, he meant moral law.
My apologies, your right.
Why unsound?
There are many reasons, but unfortunately I am not learned enough in the subject to go into them properly. Mainly from what I have picked up regarding the Human Anatomy such as how the Human Heart works etc, given that our bodies work as a whole, there are no ‘parts’ that could survive on their own nor be compatible with other random parts etc and as Anthony Flew in his book “There is a God” mentioned something regarding first getting to the point in evolution where ‘reproduction’ is even possible.

“It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of the first reproducing organism” - Anthony Flew

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” - Charles Dawrin

I also read from John Lennox regarding the ‘Flagellum’ in the cell which could not possibly have come together with slight modifications over a period of time, as the removal or addition or modification of one single part of it would mean complete loss of function.
It explains the observed diversity, as those micro-changes accumulate and, given enough time and generations, the species evolves… surely, this is but one mechanism - I think that the Modern evolutionary synthesis is how the “darwinian evolution” theory has become when you take into account all the several different mechanisms through which species can evolve.
Okay.
Here’s an analogy of the same sort of mechanism:
i.imgur.com/xWpvw.jpg
This I believe is the kind of presentation of Darwinian Evolution that I believe is flawed. As I believe the human organism evolving from ? is not at all akin to a change in color such as red to blue, given that our bodies work as a whole and not in self sustaining parts such as 10% of something plus 90% of something else transitioning into 50% of something and 50% of something else etc

Anyway, this is the best I can explain my thoughts on it at this stage. I believe in evolution in so far as a car can come in all different shapes and sizes, but not so much as to bring about the existence of a car.
It broadens the scope to social animals, hinting, in my view, at an evolutionary survival requirement… or, in your view, at a global moral law giver which is also interested in the behavior of animals… (am I wrong in this assumption of your view?)
I don’t know.

I hope this has helped (sorry for taking so long to get back to you)

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
…], given that our bodies work as a whole, there are no ‘parts’ that could survive on their own nor be compatible with other random parts etc and as Anthony Flew in his book “There is a God” mentioned something regarding first getting to the point in evolution where ‘reproduction’ is even possible.

“It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of the first reproducing organism” - Anthony Flew

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” - Charles Dawrin

I also read from John Lennox regarding the ‘Flagellum’ in the cell which could not possibly have come together with slight modifications over a period of time, as the removal or addition or modification of one single part of it would mean complete loss of function.
I see…
The very start is problematic as we have no actual evidence of how it happened. We can only look into rocks and see that rocks older than X years are just mineral formations, at best, displaying crystal-like structures.
Then, on some rocks younger than X years, you get formations which can’t be accounted by crystal-like structures, but can be accounted by organic microscopic life.
The way I understand the notion is that some chemistry must have been at work to produce a self-replicating carbohydrate molecule, or a bunch of them… not necessarily DNA, not even RNA… perhaps something less complex.
These then just kept on going, as long as they were in a place where the conditions were right for their continued self-replication.
How? no one knows, as far as I’m aware… many people are studying the thing… we await a breakthrough.
Even when it comes, we’ll have a model of how it may have happened… not necessarily confirmation that this is how it happened for sure.

As for particulars, like the flagellum, I don’t know. I’m not a biologist. I find it’s good enough that I know what a flagellum is.
This I believe is the kind of presentation of Darwinian Evolution that I believe is flawed. As I believe the human organism evolving from ? is not at all akin to a change in color such a red to blue, given that our bodies work as a whole and not in self sustaining parts such as 10% of something plus 90% of something else transitioning into 50% of something and 50% of something else etc

Anyway, this is the best I can explain my thoughts on it at this stage.
It’s one mechanism for evolution from, say, a mouse-like mammal to a primate-like one - sort of what fossils suggest happened after the dinosaurs went extinct.
Most of the functionality is already present, but it does get tweaked with features that work better in certain conditions.

How did new functionality evolve? Like how did amphibians become mammals?
Here’s how the wiki goes over that:
The first fully terrestrial vertebrates were amniotes — their eggs had internal membranes that allowed the developing embryo to breathe but kept water in. This allowed amniotes to lay eggs on dry land, while amphibians generally need to lay their eggs in water (a few amphibians, such as the Surinam toad, have evolved other ways of getting around this limitation). The first amniotes apparently arose in the middle Carboniferous from the ancestral reptiliomorphs.[9]
Within a few million years, two important amniote lineages became distinct: mammals’ synapsid ancestors and the sauropsids, from which lizards, snakes, crocodilians, dinosaurs, and birds are descended.[4] The earliest known fossils of synapsids and sauropsids (such as Archaeothyris and Hylonomus, respectively) date from about 320 to 315 million years ago. It is difficult to be sure about when each of them evolved, since vertebrate fossils from the late Carboniferous are very rare, and therefore the actual first occurrences of each of these types of animal might have been considerably earlier.[10]
Not a lot to go on, uh? 😦
Here’s some more…
The cynodonts, a theriodont group that also arose in the late Permian, include the ancestors of all mammals.
Late Permian means around 260 million years ago.
Recent analysis of Teinolophos, which lived somewhere between 121 and 112.5 million years ago, suggests that it was a “crown group” (advanced and relatively specialised) monotreme.
But the timescales involved should give us pause… first distinction between the animals that would become mammals and lizards appear in the fossil record about 320 million years ago.
Then, some form of proto-mammal is around at 260 million years ago.
And the first “crown group” - actual mammals - crop up 120 million years ago.

That means it took some 200 million years to develop what we now call mammalian features.
200 million years.
The dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago.
200 million years is a long long time, with many many many generations and many habitats which to adapt and develop the disparate features we see in mammals, when compared to lizards.

Since soft tissue doesn’t fossilize, we can’t know exactly how eggs became internalized, but we can tell that they did. And we can tell that it was a long process… with many intermediate stages. Some of those stages, while successful adaptations to their environments, would probably be disastrous nowadays and that may be one of the contributing factors that impair people’s ability to “imagine” how things may have happened.
I don’t know.

I hope this has helped (sorry for taking so long to get back to you)
“I don’t know” - how all knowledge begins! 😉
 
🙂 I’m very happy about that. May God Bless You.
Thank you…
I was reading Richard Dawkins book (I recognize he doesn’t represent all Atheists) regarding Abortion, and how he justified Abortion sent shivers up my spine, and for the most part because I believe with an Atheistic, Darwinian world view his reasoning makes complete sense.

I believe his views are totally wrong and devastatingly harmful, but also completely logical and practical coming from an Atheistic, Darwinian view of life.
The difficulty with removing all potential deeper meaning from life is that, even if true, it necessarily voids much of the purpose behind even such considerations as must motivate those such as Dawkins…rendering the degree to which he concerns himself with same to be potentially difficult to justify…
I agree with that. I would more liken it to those who say they are ‘Christian’ but not part of any organized religion.
Fair enough…
I agree.

(My apologies for taking a while to get back to your post)

Thank you for reading
Josh
No problem…thank you as well…I would have been unable to respond sooner regardless…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top