Atheists, what would you like to see as proof for God?

[wolpertinger]

Archbishop 10-K:

I would disagree that this is always the case. Many self-proclaimed atheists have very poorly-developed opinions (probably because they just don’t care, which is the reason for their atheism in the first place) and if their beliefs are challenged by an intellectual Christian, then they are very prone to doubting their faith. As an example, the school I attend is primarily agnostic and atheist, but hardly any of the students there have developed opinions, so it becomes easy for me to argue the case for theism, then Christianity, and then finally Catholic Christianity.

I am sorry to hear this. Joking and legal ramifications aside, I trust you do realize exactly how you portrayed yourself and indirectly your religion in the short paragraph above, particularly as you address it to an atheist?

“There are no atheists in foxholes.”

My father was one, hence the above proposition is false.

 

[wolpertinger]

ralphinal:

Is it fair to call an atheist an atheist if they can accept any god other than God as understood by Christians and Jews? Would it not be more correct to call them something other than a person that believes in no God?

My impression is that most atheists fall into the weak atheist category regarding deities in general, but some of them are strong atheists regarding the Abrahamic god. It does not mean that they accept any other gods, just that they take a stronger position towards a particular definition of god.

ralphinal:

Also, what about miracles that have no real explination, sucha s the one witnessed by Zola in Lourdes where a woman whose skin was basically destroyed came out of the water looking as a newborn baby’s. This is one of the ones that Zola responded that it still was not enough.

I’m not familiar with Lourdes. Even if granting that the “miracle” happened exactly as described, it still is nothing more than the argument from ignorance.

 

[AnAtheist]

JimG:

The miracle at Fatima in 1917 was one of the most well documented miracles of all time. Still, there are many who dismiss it a mass hysteria.

There are thousands who claim they have been abducted by aliens, there are tenthousands of UFO sightings (even with pictures), still I don’t believe it.
As a sceptic I first ask, who documented what and why.

 

[AnAtheist]

Psalm89:

The same would follow a miracle request from an atheist; if you don’t believe in them anyway why ask for the absurd and nonexistent?

So is there anything that can convince you that God exists? Perhaps a mathematical formula?

Exactly, miracles do not exist, therefore I don’t look for them. Everything that (really) happens, has a natural explanation (explanation, not cause, before you draw out Aquine). Some explanations have not been discovered yet, but they will be in time. Just remember the following: lightnings, earthquakes, rainbows, polar lights - no gods necessary to explain them, but people did in the past.

These would convince me too:

• A reproducable scientific experiment, that proves the existence of a being of higher power. I first wanted to call it supernatural being, but of course once it is scientifically proven, it’s not supernatural anymore .
• The mathematical or physical necessety of a higher being, i.e. this universe cannot work without it.

This is a tricky one:

• A personal apparition of God right before my eyes.
  I might be convinced by it, but I guess that might turn out to be dangerous. I mean, what if you hear a voice demanding you to sacrifice your firstborn (that has happened according to christian myths). Do you sacrifice your child, or do you go to a doctor to treat you for mental illness?

 

[flick427]

I am not an Atheist

I think the best proof God exist is the stuff going on everyday in our world not really apparitions. Look around at all the simple things like a newborn child or a married couple in love.
I’ve often thought that the very existence of evil itself proves the existance of God (and yes, I am aware evil is a percieved thing in the mind of an atheist). When there is tradgedy, a greater good always comes out of it.
The “big bang theory” of a godless universe doesn’t persecute Christians. A godless universe will not slaughter millians of Jews and Christians in the Holocaust…and a godless universe doesn’t fly two planes into New York’s largest buildings and yet another into the Pentagon.
And why would evolution “evolve” into a species that feels the need for a higher power. What need would evolution have for worship…none!..evolution is heartless and immune to love. There had to be a force conducting all of it…that is where God comes in.
And I am not promoting drunkeness here, but have you ever had a German beer? Man, that is good stuff!..things like that don’t just “happen” they are created.

 

[AnAtheist]

flick427:

A godless universe will not slaughter millians of Jews and Christians in the Holocaust…and a godless universe doesn’t fly two planes into New York’s largest buildings and yet another into the Pentagon.

Exactly those things would not happen on a planet full of godless people. Well, other things equally disturbing might…

flick427:

And why would evolution “evolve” into a species that feels the need for a higher power. What need would evolution have for worship…none!..evolution is heartless and immune to love. There had to be a force conducting all of it…that is where God comes in.

Perhaps worshipping species have a survival advantage. They are better killing machines perhaps?
And evolution is not heartless and immune of love, it has produced both. Whether there was a force behind it or not, remains to be seen…

flick427:

…, but have you ever had a German beer?

All the time… Altenmünster rules!

 

[Drew98]

Psalm89:

So is there anything that can convince you that God exists?

No spectacular miracles necessary. For me, a relationship with God would suffice. Isn’t that what Christianity teaches anyway? That God wants a personal relationship with each and every human being?

I’ve tried to be open to God and have tried to initiate conversation many times. Every time I get no response that I can perceive, just a silent nothingness.

A simple conversation with God about what he wants me to do with my life would be sufficient proof for me.

Is that such an unreasonable expectation?

 

[flick427]

AnAtheist:

Exactly those things would not happen on a planet full of godless people. Well, other things equally disturbing might…
Perhaps worshipping species have a survival advantage. They are better killing machines perhaps?
And evolution is not heartless and immune of love, it has produced both. Whether there was a force behind it or not, remains to be seen…
All the time… rules!

Well, yes, worshiping people have a reason to fight for things because of their beliefs (it is a very personal thing), so that is a logical. Sorta like how William Wallace was in Braveheart after they killed his wife. And how the Christian were afraid of Muslim suppresion and fought the Mohemmadans (however you spell tht word)…they were afraid of loosing what they help sacred.
When you as an atheist say that evolution produces the heart and love, the “believer” sees that God has created both of those. Evolution does not disprove God at all, God may have used some sort of evolution to create mankind. The bible seems to disagree with this if you interpret it literally, but the bible is a book of faith, not a history book…although it does tend to be historically correct.
Also, seeing miracles is not what makes an atheist believe, it is only when God (The Holy Ghost, the 3rd person of the Trinity) opens them up to accept it. That is how it works for the majority of Christians.
What is this **Altenmünster??? **Can I get some of this in the US or do they not export it.
Take care!

 

[AnAtheist]

flick427:

Evolution does not disprove God at all, God may have used some sort of evolution to create mankind.

Quite right, it just shows that life is possible without postulating a god.

flick427:

What is this **Altenmünster??? **Can I get some of this in the US or do they not export it.

Altenmünster is my favourite beer brand. I don’t think you’ll get it in the US, it is hard enough to obtain it here in Germany. But give it a try, it is well worth it. It comes in some variations, try the red label if possible.

Prost!

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

wolpertinger:

I am sorry to hear this. Joking and legal ramifications aside, I trust you do realize exactly how you portrayed yourself and indirectly your religion in the short paragraph above, particularly as you address it to an atheist?

Hmm? Not quite. All I was saying was that typically, if one of my peers were to challenge my beliefs, as they sometimes do, they would reveal gross misconceptions and weak assumptions for their own atheistic belief (example, I may be able to cite Descartes’ axioms or Aquinas’ five proofs of God, but they wouldn’t be able to refute those. While a person like yourself may be able to do so, atheist high school students generally cannot.)

On the reverse side, I could say that these folks portray atheism as a weak philosophy (which, in reality, is not true.)

 

[AnAtheist]

ralphinal:

Is it fair to call an atheist an atheist if they can accept any god other than God as understood by Christians and Jews? Would it not be more correct to call them something other than a person that believes in no God?

Yes, I for example do not rule out the possibility of a god or a bunch of gods, but since there is not a shred of evidence I deny their existence. (btw, the term “atheist” was first used by the Romans to describe Christians, as they did deny all the Roman gods.)

The Abrahamic God is logically impossible, the sources describing him full of contradictions therefore hardly reliable. The Christian view of God is even less probable than the Jewish one (as the latter has not much of a theodicy problem). Reincarnation or the Cartharian dualism is much more likely, yet the likelihood is so low, I can safely dismiss those too.

If there really is a nearly omni-anything being, who has created the universe, it is nothing like ANYTHING humans have thought of so far. That I am certain of.

 

[AnAtheist]

Archbishop 10-K:

Hmm? Not quite. All I was saying was that typically, if one of my peers were to challenge my beliefs, as they sometimes do, they would reveal gross misconceptions and weak assumptions for their own atheistic belief (example, I may be able to cite Descartes’ axioms or Aquinas’ five proofs of God, but they wouldn’t be able to refute those. While a person like yourself may be able to do so, atheist high school students generally cannot.)

On the reverse side, I could say that these folks portray atheism as a weak philosophy (which, in reality, is not true.)

Quite right. Just like most theists are not able to bring up Descartes or Thomas or anybody else with a thought worth thinking.
That’s what I like about this forum. We can have a decent discussion here.

 

[The_Barrister]

I’ve seen proof of God.

I’d like to see proof of atheism.

Seems you have to have a great deal more faith to be an atheist and believe in nothing, than to be a Christian and believe in something.

 

[Auberon_Quin]

The Barrister:

I’d like to see proof of atheism.

It doesn’t work that way. First you have to believe in athiesm, then proof will be vouchsaved you.

 

[S.J]

Greetings,

My brother has a phd in Astrophysics and is considered one of the top authorities in his field. He grew up Catholic, went through a period of “scientific agnosticism” in which he essentially was a subscriber to Pascal’s wager and for the last 10 years or so has been a committed believer. His study of the universe has strengthened his faith in God. He does not uncover any “proofs” of God’s existence in his work; it is more the totality of his research that points toward a theistic explanantion for the universe and why we are here. In talking to him, he is quick to say that he was never an atheist, and in fact, does not understand atheism at all. From his very logical perspective, skeptics should never make it past agnosticism - at least keep the door open a crack. Admit you don’t know, but certainly leave open the possibility.

 

[The_Barrister]

Auberon Quin:

It doesn’t work that way. First you have to believe in athiesm, then proof will be vouchsaved you.

Illogical and wrong. *First * there was God, *then * we believed in Him.

In the case of atheism, there has never been nothing, yet you believe in nothing.

Nope. Ain’t buying what you’re selling.

 

[Auberon_Quin]

The Barrister:

Ain’t buying what you’re selling.

I never bought it either, but that’s what you guys are always telling us to do.

Glad to have the lack of sense confirmed.

 

[buffalo]

I am not an atheist. A miracle of humbleness. Not believing because you cannot see or touch limits your life experience and the experience of God greatly. To experience God you have to have faith - opening your heart and mind to him. Science will not and cannot lead you there. Atheists generally don’t believe because they have another god called science which satisifies their curiosity. But science is only showing the tip of the iceberg. God encompasses all. It’s like looking at a picture which filters out colors. So you only see black and white. The color is missing and because you cannot see the color you do not believe the color is there. Remove the filter and the picture is rich with color.

 

[squirt]

The Barrister:

In the case of atheism, there has never been nothing, yet you believe in nothing.

Most atheists believe that the material universe exists. (There are exceptions … at least some claim not to believe that the material universe exists … but those are pretty rare.)

Not believing in God does not imply believing in nothing. There is a generally a belief that sensory perception is telling us something ‘real’ about the world around us.

 

[IM3RD]

AnAtheist:

If there really is a nearly omni-anything being, who has created the universe, it is nothing like ANYTHING humans have thought of so far. That I am certain of.

Good point. That’s EXACTLY what the Bible says…

I Corinthians 3:18-20
Do not deceive yourselves. If anyone of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a fool so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God’s sight.

Isaiah 29:14
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

Amazingly, God has revealed himself to you already, yet you choose not to believe.

Those who are making the most rapid advances in such fields as quantum-physics, religion, and philosophy are those who realize that the entire universe is inter-related, and no “accident” or collection of “random events” and are attempting to draw from the synergy inherent in utilizing multiple fields for growth within their discipline of specialty.

Only by combining all the knowledge that has been acquired from all fields can we continue to get a better understanding of God and how things truly work.