Atheists:

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Not quite. Your feeling of God’s existence is an internal, personal, and emotional feeling. When you think of something (imaginary or not) that is pleasing to you, you get a nice feeling. 🙂

But, wind. That’s an external feeling. It can actually move things, physically.

The feeling of wind and the feeling of your perception of a god are two totally different feelings.

Nice try, though. I really do respect that. :yup:
Not quite - because HUGE miracles with many witnesses have been recorded - take Fatima for instance…and the miracle of the Sun with 70,000 witnesses.

You say it is a personal effect - but proof otherwise has already been given.
 
Veriatas,

This is in the realm of roadmaps, and is inadequate as an argument until the experience refered to is had. Then there is the possibility of conversation and no argument is needed. Untill then it will be taken as intellectual content and is debatable. That is OK, as the referece is not shared as experience. But here is an attempted analogy, by no means adequate to relate the experience, but perhaps adding to the fire.

Consider an ordinary radio. It works by modulating energy by the utilization of potential. Say there is a very particular frequency, one definable to thousands of decimal places Hz. It has that frequency as its innate “being.” It differs in discernability by tuning, (attention) and yet coexists with every other frequency in the same place and time. When modulation is happening, the content of attention to it is the nature of the modulation itself, or the program. It is why we listen to a radio, to hear the program. But sometimes, in the world of broadcasting, something terrifying to adevertisers* happens: “dead air.” “Dead air” is when the carrier wave is still transmitting, but has no content, eg AM or FM modulation. It appears to be blank, silent. But it is not blank, it is still itself, being its own ferquency, undisguised by content.

That can happen to humans, too. The thing is, that the wave form we are talking about is in the Body of Consciousness. It is self-aware. So when this cessation of modulation happens in a human, whether by prayer, meditation, grace, or trauma, they have an experience of what they are without modulation. That is pure awareness, and that has its root in Consciousness. The human can then experience itself as an overlay on the substrate of awareness. This overlay includes everything the human thinks (modulates) itself to be, or be about. That contents is very much like a kelidescope, the attention is taken up with the pretty patterns, forgoing the understanding that what is actually being witnessed is light. Diffracted light.

If the human has all its life taken the content of its mind and senses to constitute “reality,” this experience of unmodulted awareness is a shock. The human discovers for the first time that it sense of self is based on a pre-existing somethingness that appears as nothing when attention is occupied with the world (co-modulation). But now that it has had such an experience, it starts to be aware of being aware in a different way than before. It becomes aware of the carrier wave as the source its ability to be in the experience of enjoying, or not, its program. It attributes its ability to “be” to that carrier wave, understanding experience to be modulations of that wave. One migh even say, as my Mentor did, that the awareness move sfrom the Animal Magnetism band to the Father/Mother band.

But it knows, irrevocably, that it is* not *the program. Once this is known, and the feeling of being trapped in a body is begun to be dealt with, then the activity can become more integrated with an appearence of ordinaryness. This can be very painful, excruciatingly so, because the new being understands something about itself that most don’t, and perhaps never will. It knows it experientially, not as book learning, or as faith, or as philosophy, or any other thing. It is suddently a pink monkey among the others, as the mokeys view him. To himself, he feels like a new man who has to act like a monkey or be damned. Suddenly life is explained, made a mystery, and sacramentalized at one fell swoop.

If the pink monkey is Catholic, it might make a sincere and prolonged effort to find a reasonable and fitting explanation for this experience, because one of its contents under the sub heading “faith,” it has the now questionable data that the faith had all the answers. Appearently not, though that perception is modified in future.

But then the new man/monkey goes elsewhere and searches for ones who have had like experiences and an explanation thereof, and lucks out. He discovers that this is an experience that has been happening to individuals since the time that we, as humans, had a reflexive awareness. In fact, that was what being human was about: being the localized reflexive awareness of the undifferentiated Consciousness in order to manifest experience. This dynamic was mytholagized into a map for those seeking a greater experience than afforded by the programming-only mode of awareness. That way it would make a fun story for many, and be a serious guide for others who were ready.

Somewhere along the line, though there were myths and philosophies that were prettty clear about all this, a small accident happened. A group of people who had been under the redeeming influence of a Proponent of this Way were somehow misunderstood in their intent of transmission. Instead of being a map, the story turned into the “history” of that one person. That person was all that was claimed, but somehow, in the translation of utilizable symbology, all that he stood for was skewed sideways into a historicisation. That was dogmatized and made into an adamantine structure that mimiced the original intent, but now hid it because it relegated each person’s potential birthright to a single unrepeatable case lost in the depth of history, where the original Proponent had no defense against the heresy.

Fortunately, the Proponent gave a promise. And it is so. It is so since before, after and as long as Man is. The fall of Lucifer happened. The fall in the garden happened.The burning bush is real. The whole Jesus story is real. It is just all misunderstood and taken backwards by too many.

Is that simple enough? It is unbelievable, (thank God) but experiencible. The purpose of the resurection? Know thySelf; do it and discover. “Vamos a ver.”

Bindar Doondat

*who might that be? Could it be anyone invested in keeping attention on the modulations? who would be such a deciever?
 
Then I’ll provide another example. The number 3. It only exists in the mind, not in reality. If it does exist in reality, then would you show me a concrete physical manifestation of the number 3 in nature. Not a representation of 3, but the actual number 3.
👍

Never seen an actual number three.
 
It is very true that we are always doomed.
For this life has an ending. Without living correctly for the next one, our existence is bane.

You are not getting out of this life alive.

So what purpose do you suppose we have in gaining knowledge that goes no where and will only be replaced tomorrow when we are forgotten?

Yesterday’s great inventions are today’s ancient past.

And moreover, in many years not even the most prestigious among us will be remembered. So we gain nothing in this life, and without a purpose - why do we exist?

This life is meaningless and we rot in the ground at it’s conclusion.

Man may be brilliant, but man is not responsible for the laws of God which supercede our own preferences.

Fess up - if the Bible was man made - it certainly would be more appealing to all of man than just 1/3.

If man were to create a fictional Being and call it God - wouldnt that man - let alone men of different eras - create a God that allowed adultery, homo relations, hate - revenge - and whatever else our little hearts really do think we want?
No. The people back then wanted order. :ehh: They wanted the people to lead the simplest lives without any drama or nonconformity… or else they would be put to death.
 
Even so, Christianity remains the only religion whose resurrection account claims to save people from sin.
That is of course dependent upon the belief that man does in fact need forgiveness in the first place.

Which of course, he does not.
 
Not quite - because HUGE miracles with many witnesses have been recorded - take Fatima for instance…and the miracle of the Sun with 70,000 witnesses.

You say it is a personal effect - but proof otherwise has already been given.
An alleged miracle of a rainbow vs. everday hits from wind. :rolleyes: Nice. 😃
 
.
BUT BELIEVING in a Creator is best.
🤷

Your actually suggesting that any belief, in any God, is an indication of the Christian Gods influence! That’s freakin’ ridiculous man.

Aren’t the first 4 or 5 commandments all about not worshiping other Gods? ( talk about an inferiority complex, but that’s another thread)
 
Detales,
I am going to be completely honest. I respect what you are telling me, but I see no convincing reason to believe it. If it does take an experience, then I’ll have to wait until the experience happens. If this is indeed true, then I won’t understand it by mere thinking.
 
That is of course dependent upon the belief that man does in fact need forgiveness in the first place.

Which of course, he does not.
The point still remains. This is the only resurrection that claims to HELP humanity. All other resurrections do not.

As for your wild assumption, I’ll need convincing evidence.
 
No. The people back then wanted order. :ehh: They wanted the people to lead the simplest lives without any drama or nonconformity… or else they would be put to death.
Really? What a wild assumption you make. One frankly insulting to our ancestors.
 
I feel God - even if you do not -
I used to believe I could feel God. I would get a tingling feeling all over during Mass ( only a couple masses) and I was absolutely convinced that it was God, the creator of the universe touching me.

Time passed…

I am now aware that those feelings, are nothing more than hormones being released into my body from brain.

Not only can I get the identical feeling by listening to a really good song, but I can actually experience a much greater rush.

I need only run and at approximately the 45 minute mark, especially aided by a very upbeat tune, I can experience such a rush of endorphins that it lasts for nearly two minutes. I feel absolutely fantastic, tingling, pain free, a feeling of invincibility surges through my veins!

My former self, I would think I was surely touched by God, but I realize I’m experiencing an endorphin dump…

I now know better. I never did feel God before, I was only feeling what has been provided to me by nature, and not by an God.
 
No. The people back then wanted order. :ehh: They wanted the people to lead the simplest lives without any drama or nonconformity… or else they would be put to death.
Again, why would man make it so hard on themselves?

It would have been easier to appease everyone with rules that were palatable for all.
Sex could be a pastime and any sort of relation would be fine.
Mankind would be self serving and not self giving.
We wouldnt set up rules of marriage at all since there wouldn’t be any such thing as adultery.

Seriously, the Bible is proof of itself that it is difficult to follow - so therefore it wasn’t made from man.

Order?

Where does humanity get an idea of order or conformity?
These all stem directly from an ordered Being.


We wouldnt have laws, because there really wouldnt be a purpose behind it.

See the purpose behind all laws is that of love. To remain within the laws are to show love for neighbor and others. I am referring to God’s Laws [more on that in another thread i am sure]

So why do we love - if we are just the bane of all existence?

Everything you take for granted from a natural sense of order comes through an Intellectual Being Who gave us all laws in which to know good from bad.

How does man know good from bad when an animal who is truly instinctual - does not?

Animals eat their young. They eat their own defecation. They drink blood and tear into raw muscles of other creatures. They have intercourse with whoever is nearby. They do not have permanent relationships and faithfulness. They do not build homes or do commerce or create wealth.

Yet like mankind, they have two eyes, legs, a mouth, a brain, a body and bodily functions.

SO why did man set itself apart from the rest of the animal kingdom and share nothing in the way of habits with them if we all stemmed from nothingness…?

One other thing that bothers me…
It took men millions of years to evolve ? [in theory] How did mankind come out both male and female and how did they survive all that time withOUT water when we are 80% water?
Another question in itself how we obtained water while sweltering in the hot sun baking for millions of years…??

BTW - science has actually concluded that humanity - if created on its own - would still be in the process of forming. Because there is not enough time to create the complexities of the human body.

Maybe you didn’t hear that.
 
Veritas, you are disturbingly sane. I greatly admire you for that. Indeed I have no intention of getting you to believe what I say by conversaton or arguement. That would be contrary to what I have to offer. You are accurate and perceptive in that. Whatever your mental software is, clearly the hard wiring is in very good working order. My compliments. I also appreciate that you do not raise your voice in conversation. That is a sign of maturity and good breeding. May the perpetual Light of Love shine through you as it does now, forever.

Bindar
 
The point still remains. This is the only resurrection that claims to HELP humanity. All other resurrections do not.

As for your wild assumption, I’ll need convincing evidence.
You’ve avoided my question entirely. You are basing an entire system of belief upon a presumption that man needs saving.

You’ve offered no proof that man needs savings, let alone fixing.

Either step up to the plate, answer the question or dismiss yourself.
 
You are saying that our ancestors created God with strict moral laws out of a desire for order and conformity.
What is your evidence? Why could it not be that they obeyed pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good? You are insulting them by claiming that they only cared for order.
 
You are saying that our ancestors created a God with strict moral laws out of a desire for order and conformity.
What is your evidence? Why could it not be that they obeyed pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good? You are insulting them by claiming that they only cared for order.
 
You’ve avoided my question entirely. You are basing an entire system of belief upon a presumption that man needs saving.

You’ve offered no proof that man needs savings, let alone fixing.

Either step up to the plate, answer the question or dismiss yourself.
You are the one who claimed that man does not need saving.
I was stating the FACT that the Christian account of a resurrection is based on saving man from sin. I was not presuming anything. I was stating a fact. Even if mankind didn’t need saving, the Christian notion of a resurrection would still be based on that premise.

The burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim.
 
Atheists and Agnostics,

I’m guessing that most of you have been fueled by something you’ve read. I’m not saying you read something and then lost your faith, but I’m guessing that you have read something that contributes to your current beliefs. What, may I ask, did/do you read?

If this is too vague, perhaps you can put together an atheist’s reading list (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene, etc).

Catholics/Christians,

Perhaps you could do the same (Yes, I know the Bible would be on the list)

Non-Catholic believers,

Feel free to do the same.
 
Again, why would man make it so hard on themselves?

It would have been easier to appease everyone with rules that were palatable for all.
Sex could be a pastime and any sort of relation would be fine.
Mankind would be self serving and not self giving.
We wouldnt set up rules of marriage at all since there wouldn’t be any such thing as adultery.

Seriously, the Bible is proof of itself that it is difficult to follow - so therefore it wasn’t made from man.

Order?

Where does humanity get an idea of order or conformity?
These all stem directly from an ordered Being.


We wouldnt have laws, because there really wouldnt be a purpose behind it.

See the purpose behind all laws is that of love. To remain within the laws are to show love for neighbor and others. I am referring to God’s Laws [more on that in another thread i am sure]

So why do we love - if we are just the bane of all existence?

Everything you take for granted from a natural sense of order comes through an Intellectual Being Who gave us all laws in which to know good from bad.

How does man know good from bad when an animal who is truly instinctual - does not?

Animals eat their young. They eat their own defecation. They drink blood and tear into raw muscles of other creatures. They have intercourse with whoever is nearby. They do not have permanent relationships and faithfulness. They do not build homes or do commerce or create wealth.

Yet like mankind, they have two eyes, legs, a mouth, a brain, a body and bodily functions.

SO why did man set itself apart from the rest of the animal kingdom and share nothing in the way of habits with them if we all stemmed from nothingness…?

One other thing that bothers me…
It took men millions of years to evolve ? [in theory] How did mankind come out both male and female and how did they survive all that time withOUT water when we are 80% water?
Another question in itself how we obtained water while sweltering in the hot sun baking for millions of years…??

BTW - science has actually concluded that humanity - if created on its own - would still be in the process of forming. Because there is not enough time to create the complexities of the human body.

Maybe you didn’t hear that.
You seem to underestimate curiosity, as well as the immense power of the human brain it’s evolved into. :ehh:
 
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