Atheists:

[Veritas248]

Veritas, you are disturbingly sane. I greatly admire you for that. Indeed I have no intention of getting you to believe what I say by conversaton or arguement. That would be contrary to what I have to offer. You are accurate and perceptive in that. Whatever your mental software is, clearly the hard wiring is in very good working order. My compliments. I also appreciate that you do not raise your voice in conversation. That is a sign of maturity and good breeding. May the perpetual Light of Love shine through you as it does now, forever.

Bindar

Thank you for the compliment.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Atheists and Agnostics,

I’m guessing that most of you have been fueled by something you’ve read. I’m not saying you read something and then lost your faith, but I’m guessing that you have read something that contributes to your current beliefs. What, may I ask, did/do you read?

If this is too vague, perhaps you can put together an atheist’s reading list (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene, etc).

Catholics/Christians,

Perhaps you could do the same (Yes, I know the Bible would be on the list)

Non-Catholic believers,

Feel free to do the same.

(The fuel for me to lose faith The Catholic Forum and the Bible

Others that contributed would be:

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

God is not Great by Chistopher Hitchens

 

[Veritas248]

You seem to underestimate curiosity, as well as the immense power of the human brain it’s evolved into. :ehh:

Right. The human brain is powerful. Then again, it has to get its power from somewhere.
Non intelligence begets non intelligence. Intelligence begets intelligence. Since intelligence is greater than non intelligence, to say that non intelligence creates intelligence is a violation of one of the most vital laws of all science:The law of causality.
So where did mankind get its intelligence?

 

[Veritas248]

(The fuel for me to lose faith The Catholic Forum and the Bible

Others that contributed would be:

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

God is not Great by Chistopher Hitchens

I find it funny that you take fiction and two books written by people who aren’t credible theologians at face value.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

You are saying that our ancestors created a God with strict moral laws out of a desire for order and conformity.
What is your evidence? Why could it not be that they obeyed pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good? You are insulting them by claiming that they only cared for order.

They did care for order. Order, comfort, and happiness in the least dramatic way possible. Right now, the majority of this world is obedient. Obedience is always the majority; with that being said, there will always be those who enjoy their–uh… animal roots. (For a lack of better term. )

Besides, there are people who obey pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good. They’re called non-Christians.

 

[SlackMaster]

So you’re saying that individuals are incapable of learning on their own?

Mankind developed his intelligence through many years of evolution AS WELL as from other humans. I learn from you, you learn from me, we pass this knowledge on to our offspring, etc.

If you’re saying that God gave us our intelligence, who gave God his/her intelligence? According to what you said, there must be a cause right?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Right. The human brain is powerful. Then again, it has to get its power from somewhere.
Non intelligence begets non intelligence. Intelligence begets intelligence. Since intelligence is greater than non intelligence, to say that non intelligence creates intelligence is a violation of one of the most vital laws of all science:The law of causality.
So where did mankind get its intelligence?

Intelligence comes from discovery; discovery comes from curiosity; curiosity comes from instinct-- Instincts that tell you what’s dangerous, what’s pleasing, what can get you fed or killed-- instincts come from the five senses and on and on and on!

 

[Veritas248]

They did care for order. Order, comfort, and happiness in the least dramatic way possible. Right now, the majority of this world is obedient. Obedience is always the majority; with that being said, there will always be those who enjoy their–uh… animal roots. (For a lack of better term. )

Besides, there are people who obey pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good. They’re called non-Christians.

Yes, they did care for order, but not order alone.

Now as to your second statement, where did you get that notion? Christions obey laws for the sake of being good. God=goodness. So when we do things for the sake of goodness, then we do them for the sake of God. You need an absolute reference point for good anyway, or it breaks down into mere preferences.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That is of course dependent upon the belief that man does in fact need forgiveness in the first place.

Which of course, he does not.

Evidence? So far you havent given sufficient proof to the question.

An alleged miracle of a rainbow vs. everday hits from wind. Nice.

You really that lost about the miracle of the sun?
Really?

Ok the reader’s digest formula - there were 70,000 ppl all there waiting for a miracle. {even non believers} and then it poured on them and soaked them completely…
Within moments they watched the sun moving around in the sky and then it started to plunge towards the earth and they thought for sure they were all going to be goners.
Then the sun moved back into place and all the soaked ppl were completely dry - including the earth which was previously sopping muddy.

AND you think that was what? A rainbow?

What rainbow?

Your actually suggesting that any belief, in any God, is an indication of the Christian Gods influence! That’s freakin’ ridiculous man.

Aren’t the first 4 or 5 commandments all about not worshiping other Gods? ( talk about an inferiority complex, but that’s another thread)

NOT all - just the ones who were in exile from all teachings that a Creator existed.

Certainly no one told them that they had to act like a God existed in order to proove scriptures.
Correct?

So logically - if the scriptures were not true and prophetic then how did life show us an example of scriptures being true?

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the writings in Romans when this was being explained…
God said He would put His laws into the hearts of those who did not know Him and they would be saved by how they obeyed those laws in their hearts. [referring to the non Jews who didnt receive His official Laws]
He also said ‘I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.’

I used to believe I could feel God. I would get a tingling feeling all over during Mass ( only a couple masses) and I was absolutely convinced that it was God, the creator of the universe touching me.

Time passed…

I am now aware that those feelings, are nothing more than hormones being released into my body from brain.

Where did the hormones come from? They are not self created.

It doesn’t matter what matter God uses to affect us - but that the matter exists and how He uses it.

For instance - no one can explain love. Sure there is a trigger, there is a catalyst, there are scents and there are many factors - but after all the nuts and bolts are laid out on the table, the emotions still do not make logical sense.

Maybe you think because something created is used for its intent that this eliminates God. But I suggest quite the opposite.:shrug:God created these things for the intent to feel Him.

otherwise - how could we emply emotions of any kind or feel love from even another human?
Just because you can see the human next to you who you feel all hormonal and snuggly with doesnt mean the same hormones are not being triggered. Does the response because it is God have to be different?
Are we that autonomous and alienated from Him that He cannot give us these responses for the sake of itself in feeling HIM also??
.

Not only can I get the identical feeling by listening to a really good song, but I can actually experience a much greater rush.

I need only run and at approximately the 45 minute mark, especially aided by a very upbeat tune, I can experience such a rush of endorphins that it lasts for nearly two minutes. I feel absolutely fantastic, tingling, pain free, a feeling of invincibility surges through my veins!

My former self, I would think I was surely touched by God, but I realize I’m experiencing an endorphin dump…

I now know better. I never did feel God before, I was only feeling what has been provided to me by nature, and not by an God.

Let me ask you - are you running? Are you listening to music? Are you feeling anything?
Yes you are.

HOW?
Because the One Who created you to feel, can be felt.

I dont see how feeling God has to be seperate from feeling a rush in listening to music or anything else.

That doesnt make sense.

Should we exclude God because our bodies can react to Him?

Are your experiences anything less because they are hormonal or rushes?
Do they not exist at all because your body has reactions?

 

[phantasm]

So where did mankind get its intelligence?

Slow evolutionary steps.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Yes, they did care for order, but not order alone.

Now as to your second statement, where did you get that notion? Christions obey laws for the sake of being good. God=goodness. So when we do things for the sake of goodness, then we do them for the sake of God. You need an absolute reference point for good anyway, or it breaks down into mere preferences.

To the Atheist, goodness is goodness. It would be illogical to go out on a killing spree for the heck of it, and all Atheists know it… unless they have antisocial personality disorder, but even a Christian can fall victim to that.

 

[Veritas248]

So you’re saying that individuals are incapable of learning on their own?

Mankind developed his intelligence through many years of evolution AS WELL as from other humans. I learn from you, you learn from me, we pass this knowledge on to our offspring, etc.

If you’re saying that God gave us our intelligence, who gave God his/her intelligence? According to what you said, there must be a cause right?

Well, saying intelligence evolved would be saying intelligence arose from non intelligence. Violation of the law of Causality.
Something greater cannot come from something less.
Yes humans do pass on intelligence. Intelligence begets intelligence.

God would need a source of His intelligence unless he is intelligence itself.

 

[Veritas248]

To the Atheist, goodness is goodness. It would be illogical to go out on a killing spree for the heck of it, and all Atheists know it… unless they have antisocial personality disorder, but even a Christian can fall victim to that.

Ok, then by what does this “goodness” derive its authority? Without an absolute reference point, wouldn’t all be free to define goodness themselves?

 

[Veritas248]

Slow evolutionary steps.

Violation of the Law of Causality. Non intelligence cannot produce intelligence.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Well, saying intelligence evolved would be saying intelligence arose from non intelligence. Violation of the law of Causality.
Something greater cannot come from something less.
Yes humans do pass on intelligence. Intelligence begets intelligence.

God would need a source of His intelligence unless he is intelligence itself.

That tells me that god is a metaphor. :ehh:

 

[phantasm]

Ok, then by what does this “goodness” derive its authority? Without an absolute reference point, wouldn’t all be free to define goodness themselves?

That’s what human society does and evolutionary instinct.

Aboriginal people did not have any supreme being to tell them not to kill each other, not to steal from each other, not to rape women, yet they survived and thrived until the Christian European Colonizers came to America and destroyed their culture, way of life and peoples.

 

[Snerticus]

Not quite. Your feeling of God’s existence is an internal, personal, and emotional feeling. When you think of something (imaginary or not) that is pleasing to you, you get a nice feeling.

Blade, you give awful good arguments to your side, I have to admit. But this one sentence is mispercieved by you… at least some of the time.

I can tell you that yes, spirituality has it’s “feelings”. I personally believe that spirituality often does affect our physiology in such a way that we percieve emotions without a valid physical reason. However, there are some aspects of spirituality that do not effect our emotions at all, such as knowing in the existence of God. That’s the part that is difficult to explain. Unfortunately, that gives those who can percieve spiritual things a bad rap, because they cannot explain it. They can only explain insofar as the senses are concerned, but there is more to it than that.

I’m sure you’ve had experiences (I hope so anyway, otherwise this is going to be a bad example) of someone standing behind you. Not the “shivers up your spine” feeling, but a genuine feeling that someone is behind you and you need to respond to them somehow. Neither a good or bad “feeling”, just one that someone is standing there. When you turn, there’s no one, and you can’t see anyone even near where you’re standing (or sitting). Spiritual things are kind of like that. Not really a feeling of the senses, but something else is percieving it. Sometimes I try to rationalize it by saying it’s noise bouncing off something and making it subconciously sound like something is behind me. Other times, I think it’s a brush of air movement. But usually when I finally turn around to look, nothing is any different than it was before, especially when I’m inside a familiar building and know the qualities of that building (ie acoustics, air vents ,etc… ). It’s funny because I’ll just stand there sometimes and wait for this person to say something. When they don’t I start to get angry at why they’re waiting for me to turn around and say something when they know darn well I may not be aware of them at all. That’s when I turn to say something and there’s no one there. Thank God I don’t speak before I turn, or else I’d look rather silly.

In a way, knowing that God exists is a spiritual experience, similar to the one above, exept someone is there, only your senses can’t percieve Him. You just “know” it. You can only try to explain how to someone that doesn’t believe it, but it will be futile. At the end, it’s only the faith you have in yourself and God that will tell you if it is true.

I understand how hard it is for some not to sense God. I did it for years, so in a way I know how you feel. But because of the fact I’m human and percieve things differetly from others and have had much different experiences than others I can say without a doubt at this point in my life that God exists. I wish you could experience something like that so you could understand, but odds are it may never happen to you. And unfortunately from what I’ve read and experienced myself, the more you want it to happen, the less likely it is to happen. Most of these things happen when we least expect them to, and take us totally by surprise.

To us who believe, whatever the religion, it’s more like something you just know, like a person who you sense is standing behind you, and actually is there. Except that this “Person” is not just behind you or in front of you but all around you and in everything. That person just “is”. I can’t explain it any better than that.

That’s probably one of the worst or tacky descriptions you’ve heard, but I gave it a shot, anyway!

 

[WarriorAngel]

They did care for order. Order, comfort, and happiness in the least dramatic way possible. Right now, the majority of this world is obedient. Obedience is always the majority; with that being said, there will always be those who enjoy their–uh… animal roots. (For a lack of better term. )

Besides, there are people who obey pre-existing laws out of a respect for doing good. They’re called non-Christians.

Where and what is the pattern for good you claim to obey…?

Good is not a natural occurrence of the universe without a uh …gravitational pull towards that which is a SOURCE of good. [for lack of a better term]

 

[Veritas248]

That tells me that god is a metaphor. :ehh:

Interesting interpretation.
We say God is Love, God is Truth, God is Wisdom, etc. When I say “God is Intelligence”, I mean it in the exact same way the others are meant. He is the source of intelligence.

 

[phantasm]

Where and what is the pattern for good you claim to obey…?

Good is not a natural occurrence of the universe without a uh …gravitational pull towards that which is a SOURCE of good. [for lack of a better term]

I don’t like hurting people, it just doesn’t make me feel very good. I don’t need God to tell me not to randomly beat people to death.

Is God the only thing stopping the religious from going on killing rampages?