Atheists:

[annem]

Blade and Blood Catholicism just makes sense to you in every way; I’m assuming it’s all you know in experience, so it’s only natural for it to be absolute truth in your mind

Actually I was an atheist for a decade.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Thanks for proving my point.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to your middle paragraph. Even the religious murder. Instinct comes before morals in any human.

 

[AirLiner]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to your middle paragraph. Even the religious murder. Instinct comes before morals in any human.

I’m sorry but that didn’t fully make sense. What did you mean?

 

[Veritas248]

1. Who told you that was a secret? Besides, I highly doubt his philosophies had anything to do with his psychotic breakdown. If it did, then wow! The truth really does hurt.
2. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.) People are increasingly caring about the truth, actually. Agnosticism and Atheism is on the rise. Just kidding. But don’t say that people don’t care about truth. If anything, many search for it, but a philosophical, theological, or religious truth (or all three) are more opinion, even for you and even for me. Catholicism just makes sense to you in every way; I’m assuming it’s all you know in experience, so it’s only natural for it to be absolute truth in your mind and your life along with the minds and lives others. Not that that’s bad. It’s whatever helps you sleep at night. But this is coming from an Agnostic, so I wouldn’t think you’d see it my way.
3. I’m not Atheist, man. Agnosticism has different levels; we’re not too predictable as you’d like to think we are.

1. Nietzsche was a nihilist. He was honest enough to see that the logical conclusion of atheism was nihilism. So was Sartre, but but he tried to escape nihilism with existentialism. The point is that no one can believe that nothing has any meaning for too long. It is inherently insane. Nietzsche’s insane philosophies caught up with him. (I didn’t know you thought nihilism was true!).
2. (Sure…) Sounds like you’ve been reading Kant. Philosophical, theological, and religious truths being mere opinions? That sounds suspiciously like Kantian ideas. If it is Kant you got that idea from, then that explains a lot more than you may think.
3. I’m well aware of that. The question is what kind of agnostic are you? You said that you were close to atheism, and many things you wrote here sound like atheistic ideas: like equating God and Santa Claus for example. You certainly sound like you know for a fact that God does not exist, which isn’t agnosticism.

 

[Veritas248]

Well, not all atheists are hedonistic libertines. Nonetheless one of the greatest absurdities of atheism is that it’s compatible with morality. In an atheist viewpoint the world is merely matter in motion. If you pick up a rock you merely move matter, if someone is killed, matter is merely moved. So the idea that atheism and morality are compatible is absurd. However they do tend to accept one of the most obvious forms of morality (altruism). So either atheists paradoxically acknowledge the absurdity of materialism by thinking morality is real or they just accept that they’re reasoning is flawed and decide to live moral lives knowing it doesn’t make sense.

Another thing that demonstrates the pathetic attempts to conform materialism to obvious truths is free will. Apparently there are atheists that believe in free will, because it well its obviously real not to mention the basis for all legal systems. But from an atheistic standpoint the mind is made of brain tissue, nerves, atoms, sub atomic particles merely moving around. Hence there is no free will unless matter in motion like rock slides have free will. Most scientists don’t believe in it. Yet the common atheist being the extraordinary philosopher that he is doesn’t realize the implications of his beliefs and often does seem to believe in free will. However the atheistic standpoint makes for an interesting concept. Let’s say someone commits a murder and as their defense they use the atheistic idea that free will isn’t real. Hence for billions of years now his fate was sealed. Nobody had any control over whether he would commit a crime or even be acquitted. So why should he be punished? From the standpoint of atheistic materialism this actually makes sense. :dts:

So yes indeed atheism is inherently nihilistic. Luckily for us the atheists ignore their own reasoning so we don’t have a bunch hedonistic libertines running around.

This is precisely what leads me to question the honesty of most atheists. They’ll deny God in a heartbeat, but they won’t accept the logical consequences of their beliefs. The reason is obvious, I think: they know that such beliefs would drive them insane. Where are all the nihilistic determinists? Where are all the real atheists?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

1. Nietzsche was a nihilist. He was honest enough to see that the logical conclusion of atheism was nihilism. So was Sartre, but but he tried to escape nihilism with existentialism. The point is that no one can believe that nothing has any meaning for too long. It is inherently insane. Nietzsche’s insane philosophies caught up with him. (I didn’t know you thought nihilism was true!).
2. (Sure…) Sounds like you’ve been reading Kant. Philosophical, theological, and religious truths being mere opinions? That sounds suspiciously like Kantian ideas. If it is Kant you got that idea from, then that explains a lot more than you may think.
3. I’m well aware of that. The question is what kind of agnostic are you? You said that you were close to atheism, and many things you wrote here sound like atheistic ideas: like equating God and Santa Claus for example. You certainly sound like you know for a fact that God does not exist, which isn’t agnosticism.

I’ll only respond to #3 since I don’t know who Kant is: It would be very unwise to be close-minded to the idea of a god existing. As far as a higher power is concerned–whether it’d be aliens, an eternal being, time (), or some other entity-- I’ve absolutely no idea if they exist or not, and I’m not the type to say that they absolutely don’t. But, I am talking about the Christian God-- a specific being that we are discussing here. I personally don’t believe that an all-powerful being who actually gives a c*** about us exists because it’s too… self-centered. But, that’s just me. I don’t take offence to being called an Atheist, of course, but it is very inaccurate on your part because I’m not.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I’m sorry but that didn’t fully make sense. What did you mean?

Instinct overpowers personal morals. I really don’t blame you for not understanding because your religion puts humans above animals. People fail to realize that no matter what we do to this Earth, how we do it, what we have become in doing this–along with other results-- it doesn’t make us any less “animalistic” (if that’s even a word); it just puts us higher up on the food chain.

But, we’ve tried so very much to become more “civilized,” and as the generations go on, common sense and rational thinking are built in as we are raised. Religious or not, we have responsibilities, we have our common sense, we have our free will; religious or not, we choose on whether or not to act on them; religious or not, we may kill or we may not. But, who kills? Well, it varies. I could tell you that the majority of criminals behind bars are Christian (or religious, in general), but that would be very unfair and biased, considering the jail cell conversions and that the population, in general of this nation, is Christian (well, last time I checked, that is ).

 

[Veritas248]

I’ll only respond to #3 since I don’t know who Kant is: It would be very unwise to be close-minded to the idea of a god existing. As far as a higher power is concerned–whether it’d be aliens, an eternal being, time (), or some other entity-- I’ve absolutely no idea if they exist or not, and I’m not the type to say that they absolutely don’t. But, I am talking about the Christian God-- a specific being that we are discussing here. I personally don’t believe that an all-powerful being who actually gives a c*** about us exists because it’s too… self-centered. But, that’s just me. I don’t take offence to being called an Atheist, of course, but it is very inaccurate on your part because I’m not.

You don’t know about Kant? Where did you get the notion that philosophical, theological, and religious truth is mere opinion? Which philosopher did you pull this from?
I applaud your wisdom in your first sentence. I do have reservations about the rest. For example: I disagree about how such a thing would be self-centered. It would be far more self-centered to claim that humanity is the highest thing in the universe. (I’m not talking about God in the Christian sense either. I’m talking about God as a supreme being, which many religions can claim.)

 

[Veritas248]

Instinct overpowers personal morals. I really don’t blame you for not understanding because your religion puts humans above animals. People fail to realize that no matter what we do to this Earth, how we do it, what we have become in doing this–along with other results-- it doesn’t make us any less “animalistic” (if that’s even a word); it just puts us higher up on the food chain.

But, we’ve tried so very much to become more “civilized,” and as the generations go on, common sense and rational thinking are built in as we are raised. Religious or not, we have responsibilities, we have our common sense, we have our free will; religious or not, we choose on whether or not to act on them; religious or not, we may kill or we may not. But, who kills? Well, it varies. I could tell you that the majority of criminals behind bars are Christian (or religious, in general), but that would be very unfair and biased, considering the jail cell conversions and that the population, in general of this nation, is Christian (well, last time I checked, that is ).

This free will, responsibilities, and common sense, even instinct, thoughts and feelings, where do they come from? They have to come from somewhere.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Instinct overpowers personal morals. I really don’t blame you for not understanding because your religion puts humans above animals. People fail to realize that no matter what we do to this Earth, how we do it, what we have become in doing this–along with other results-- it doesn’t make us any less “animalistic” (if that’s even a word); it just puts us higher up on the food chain.

But, we’ve tried so very much to become more “civilized,” and as the generations go on, common sense and rational thinking are built in as we are raised. Religious or not, we have responsibilities, we have our common sense, we have our free will; religious or not, we choose on whether or not to act on them; religious or not, we may kill or we may not. But, who kills? Well, it varies. I could tell you that the majority of criminals behind bars are Christian (or religious, in general), but that would be very unfair and biased, considering the jail cell conversions and that the population, in general of this nation, is Christian (well, last time I checked, that is ).

If you were raised in a country that has gone through tough times. Fighting a dictator, fighting starvation, fighting disease. Your whole thought process would be different. You would either come to rely heavily in God in some sort of religion, or another diety in another religion. If it came down to life or limb on a daily basis you would also rely on your instincts and abilities to survive, but you would still hope and pray in some fashion to be delivered from the life you live.

 

[AirLiner]

Instinct overpowers personal morals. I really don’t blame you for not understanding because your religion puts humans above animals. People fail to realize that no matter what we do to this Earth, how we do it, what we have become in doing this–along with other results-- it doesn’t make us any less “animalistic” (if that’s even a word); it just puts us higher up on the food chain.

But, we’ve tried so very much to become more “civilized,” and as the generations go on, common sense and rational thinking are built in as we are raised. Religious or not, we have responsibilities, we have our common sense, we have our free will; religious or not, we choose on whether or not to act on them; religious or not, we may kill or we may not. But, who kills? Well, it varies. I could tell you that the majority of criminals behind bars are Christian (or religious, in general), but that would be very unfair and biased, considering the jail cell conversions and that the population, in general of this nation, is Christian (well, last time I checked, that is ).

I didn’t understand it because of your wording. As far as my religion goes, it merely states that we are more than automatons. In your first paragraph you merely affirm what I said. Atheists believe that people are just matter, complicated automatons or “animalistic” as you said.

As to your second paragraph, well the reasoning there is a bit off. I’ve seen this before. A theist claims atheist has no basis for morality, and an atheist responds by claiming atheists don’t misbehave hence they have a sense of morality. Now this gets kind of annoying because its beside the point, and again demonstrates how little philosophy goes on among atheists.

Now you also mention Christian and religious criminals. However how can you make a point about a religion’s morality by pointing out the people who disobey its teachings? Again the reasoning here is a bit off. And I wouldn’t say its biased. Yes, there are Christians in this nation who abandon their beliefs and commit crimes. However if you have any problem at all with Catholic morality here’s what I want you to do. Point out one, just one Catholic teaching on morals that isn’t logical and reasonable.

For all you Catholic apologists out there with a good understanding of natural law that’s is one of the most difficult things for atheists to accomplish (because its impossible). If you’re tired of hearing sophistry from atheists and instead want obviously transparent nonsense pull that challenge out for them. From what I’ve seen this applies to those new atheists as well.

Now, materialism shows absolutely no basis for responsibilities, common sense, or even free will. I’ve researched this and know it as a fact, most scientists don’t believe in free will, there is no scientific basis for it, and scientists view it as an illusion. The same goes for responsibilities and free will. Atheism is nihilistic and there is no escaping that.

My point is that anytime an atheist behaves morally he is actually not making sense, and ignoring his beliefs. Now this happens to be a good thing. Just like Protestants and non-Christians, atheists may be benevolent and noble, willing to help they’re fellow human being, Nonetheless their reasoning and philosophies are abhorrent, and despite reaching the right ends, they are still preaching lies.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

You don’t know about Kant? Where did you get the notion that philosophical, theological, and religious truth is mere opinion? Which philosopher did you pull this from?
I applaud your wisdom in your first sentence. I do have reservations about the rest. For example: I disagree about how such a thing would be self-centered. It would be far more self-centered to claim that humanity is the highest thing in the universe. (I’m not talking about God in the Christian sense either. I’m talking about God as a supreme being, which many religions can claim.)

Exactly, and that’s how many of the religious (especially Christians) see it. We are the center of the universe, apparently. Several Christians don’t believe in aliens or other galaxies because it betrays the notion of us as “God’s people.”

And, as far as the highest thing in–not the universe, but–the world is concerned, how do you think we got to the top of the food chain? With our earlier beliefs in some higher entity that just happened to make us feel special and obligated to take care of world (which we are slowly destroying, by the way). It’s quite the self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Now you also mention Christian and religious criminals. However how can you make a point about a religion’s morality by pointing out the people who disobey its teachings? Again the reasoning here is a bit off. And I wouldn’t say its biased. Yes, there are Christians in this nation who abandon their beliefs and commit crimes. However if you have any problem at all with Catholic morality here’s what I want you to do. Point out one, just one Catholic teaching on morals that isn’t logical and reasonable.

Now, that’s actually a very objective demand, here. Personally, I believe that whole homosexuality issue is ridiculous. But, that’s just me. I really don’t want to bring that into the conversation because–come on, who really wins those debates? :dts: This thread is kind of the same way, but it’s just one issue.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

This free will, responsibilities, and common sense, even instinct, thoughts and feelings, where do they come from? They have to come from somewhere.

Ugh! It’s called a brain, dude. Seriously!

 

[Veritas248]

Exactly, and that’s how many of the religious (especially Christians) see it. We are the center of the universe, apparently. Several Christians don’t believe in aliens or other galaxies because it betrays the notion of us as “God’s people.”

And, as far as the highest thing in–not the universe, but–the world is concerned, how do you think we got to the top of the food chain? With our earlier beliefs in some higher entity that just happened to make us feel special and obligated to take care of world (which we are slowly destroying, by the way). It’s quite the self-fulfilling prophecy.

No, we see God as the highest. That is a different discussion though. I don’t completely discount aliens. One message from space would be enough to prove their existence. Alas, we haven’t received that message. And a different discussion, a different time.

As to your second paragraph, the answer is that we posses something the animals do not: Reason. The definition of man as a rational animal don’t you remember? We are destroying this belief because of pride and foolishness. In the last 200 years, a war on reason has been going on. With all the philosophies around: Nihilism, Existentialism, Empiricism, Marxism, Freudianism, Romanticism, Fascism, Nominalism, Pragmatism, and Deconstructionism, a more complete attack on reason is never found anywhere in history. Contrast this to the middle ages, where the thinkers were rational to a fault. Religious belief is declining now though. I wonder how closely this is related to the decline of reason.

You still avoid the question though: Where did you get that belief of yours?

 

[Veritas248]

Ugh! It’s called a brain, dude. Seriously!

Not if the brain is just matter. Haven’t you studied science? You know that something greater cannot come from something less. Stop violating the law of causality and give me a real answer.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I’ll only respond to #3 since I don’t know who Kant is: It would be very unwise to be close-minded to the idea of a god existing. As far as a higher power is concerned–whether it’d be aliens, an eternal being, time , or some other entity-- I’ve absolutely no idea if they exist or not, and I’m not the type to say that they absolutely don’t. But, I am talking about the Christian God-- a specific being that we are discussing here. I personally don’t believe that an all-powerful being who actually gives a c*** about us exists because it’s too… self-centered. But, that’s just me. I don’t take offence to being called an Atheist, of course, but it is very inaccurate on your part because I’m not.

So you prefer a God Who doesn’t acknowledge you and doesn’t care about you?
You are unique - or i should say - claiming something you don’t actually believe.
Ever hear of sibling rivalry?
The basic need to be seen and acknowledged by our biological parents.

Truly - think about it, you really don’t want a God Who created you and left you to your own devices.
God - there is only One - serves us.

Ppl tend to forget the magnitude of His Love and Mercy.
Yes - He serves us.
He always has and always loves us.

He seeks we do the same in return.
Show me one ‘relationship’ that doesn’t ask the same.

What you said - could be said about getting married and hoping your spouse doesn’t acknowledge you - or it would be selfish.

Make sense?

Instinct overpowers personal morals. I really don’t blame you for not understanding because your religion puts humans above animals. People fail to realize that no matter what we do to this Earth, how we do it, what we have become in doing this–along with other results-- it doesn’t make us any less “animalistic” (if that’s even a word); it just puts us higher up on the food chain.

Ok, i’ll bite. Know of any good deer contractors?
If ya do, I need them simply because they probably work cheap.
Yes, humans have domain over animals. [we have intelligence and a soul - which knows right from wrong]
That isnt to say we may treat them badly - for the proverbs 12 tells us that the righteous man has regard for his animals and the wicked are cruel to them.

But, we’ve tried so very much to become more “civilized,” and as the generations go on, common sense and rational thinking are built in as we are raised. Religious or not, we have responsibilities, we have our common sense, we have our free will; religious or not, we choose on whether or not to act on them; religious or not, we may kill or we may not. But, who kills? Well, it varies. I could tell you that the majority of criminals behind bars are Christian (or religious, in general), but that would be very unfair and biased, considering the jail cell conversions and that the population, in general of this nation, is Christian (well, last time I checked, that is ).

God gave us these qualities. He was the Creator.

Your life goal should be finding the truth of Who God is.
And a good start would be the God Who gave us the ability to know Him, to know what He is like, and what He wants.

If a god falls flat on giving us some sort of response to who we are and what life is about - then that god doesn’t exist.

It wouldnt make sense to just put us here and not communicate with us.

Exactly, and that’s how many of the religious (especially Christians) see it. We are the center of the universe, apparently. Several Christians don’t believe in aliens or other galaxies because it betrays the notion of us as “God’s people.”

And, as far as the highest thing in–not the universe, but–the world is concerned, how do you think we got to the top of the food chain? With our earlier beliefs in some higher entity that just happened to make us feel special and obligated to take care of world (which we are slowly destroying, by the way). It’s quite the self-fulfilling prophecy.

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/universe/howbig.html

Just wanted to share that.

AND this ~> youtube.com/watch?v=nATJ4kplZjw&feature=related

 

[AirLiner]

Now, that’s actually a very objective demand, here. Personally, I believe that whole homosexuality issue is ridiculous. But, that’s just me. I really don’t want to bring that into the conversation because–come on, who really wins those debates? :dts: This thread is kind of the same way, but it’s just one issue.

My new signature came at just the right time. The homosexuality issue is not ridiculous. You see Catholics don’t consider human beings as just complicated automatons. We believe we have purpose. Natural Law is the basis for Catholic morality. Now the purpose of sex is for procreation and it also provides couples intimacy. This makes it easier to raise kids, have a family etc. Now in homosexual relations the participants get pleasure, but they also completely disregard sex’s reproductive function. It is extremely obvious from the design of our bodies that sex is intended for a male and female. However in homosexual relations the participants engage in an act meant to produce a new human being and make it impossible for the new human being from being created. Given the value of human life in Catholicism this is pretty grave.

Now I know that telling a homosexual not to engage in their sex is like someone telling me to remain celibate for the rest of my life. But, you can’t escape the reasoning. Even heterosexuals have to fight urges to commit immoral sex acts. And trust me, they can still be happy.

Also, please don’t go existential on me. Of course people win those debates, someone tells the truth while the other doesn’t that applies to this thread too.

You abandoned my other points too and the other posters who decided to repeat my statements have been ignored also. So does that mean you’re willing to agree that atheism is inherently nihilistic and any atheist who behaves morally, while doing the right thing, is being illogical by their own reasoning?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

In response to both Warrior Angel and AirLiner, these types of debates really are nearly impossible to win–meaning, it’s impossible to convince the other. Usually, the believer does win… but only by default. Nonbelievers (if I may generalize) are well-aware of who they’re dealing with when they bring up religious topics. I’ve seen a lot of videos on YouTube of a news anchor (Sorry, I forgot the dude’s name) vs. Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or some other Atheist, and I’ve always noticed that the anchorman/woman (i.e. the believer) never lets the opposer talk.

And here’s where the difficulties lie half the time, the believer just doesn’t get it. :nope: I mean, I don’t really blame you, of course, but you really have to see the nonbelievers side to understand what we’re trying to say, which actually brings us back to the OP’s question: Why are Atheists or Agnostics here?

Did you notice the Catholic members’ attempt? They assumed their own opinions about nonbelievers and simply answered incorrectly, which is probably why we’re getting into this mess. The point is: Your own assumptions and beliefs (as well as my own, of course) taint the argument… as bad as that sounds. :ehh:

WarriorAngel, you assume God is a constant, which makes it impossible for you to see my arguments.

AirLiner, your trust in Catholic opinions and teachings of homosexuality fail to help you understand why nobody even wins these debates… unless it’s by default.

That’s probably this thread isn’t going to settled until a moderator decides to shut it down. We stand by our own opinions, even after the battle is lost. I know I will and I know you will; we’re all just that stubborn. :yup:

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

No, we see God as the highest. That is a different discussion though. I don’t completely discount aliens. One message from space would be enough to prove their existence. Alas, we haven’t received that message. And a different discussion, a different time.

As to your second paragraph, the answer is that we posses something the animals do not: Reason. The definition of man as a rational animal don’t you remember? We are destroying this belief because of pride and foolishness. In the last 200 years, a war on reason has been going on. With all the philosophies around: Nihilism, Existentialism, Empiricism, Marxism, Freudianism, Romanticism, Fascism, Nominalism, Pragmatism, and Deconstructionism, a more complete attack on reason is never found anywhere in history. Contrast this to the middle ages, where the thinkers were rational to a fault. Religious belief is declining now though. I wonder how closely this is related to the decline of reason.

You still avoid the question though: Where did you get that belief of yours?

(Romanticism is awesome. Wordsworth and Blake were the best! )

I get my general beliefs from my observances on human behavior. I think I’ve said that a fair few times.