Athiest handbook

[DavidFilmer]

Once again, [attempting to convert non-Christians] will drive them further away.

Oh, really?

So trying to convert someone will drive them away from Christianity, huh?

Do you have any idea how inane and vapid that is? Billions have been converted through the missionary efforts of others, as Jesus and the Gospels (and history) both command and attest.

If you want to quit the field (as an agnostic) then go ahead (it is your cowardly right), but don’t you (as a coward) dare tell others (who are brave) to quit the good fight. There are those who will fight for the truth, in spite of cowards and weaklings such as you, sir, who flee the field.

 

[MrIsla]

why can’t everyone be christian. is that what jesus wants. and to go into to that even futher… why does he want to judge us?

please answer

 

[MrIsla]

well put david.

 

[DavidFilmer]

why can’t everyone be christian. is that what jesus wants

There are things that can be “proven” beyond all human doubt. For example, the ancient Greeks proved that the square-root of two was an irrational number (ie, it cannot be expressed as a fraction). And, thus, they proved that there was SUCH A THING as an “irrational number” (this was the first such number discovered).

But the concept of an “irrational number” had never occurred to anybody in the whole history of the world. The idea was so “absurd” that these Greeks kept the proof hidden for many years, least others think them insane.

But the proof was eventually made known. Since then, absolutely NOBODY (of any recognized stature) has claimed the contrary. The proof of the Greeks is too absolute and compelling.

All mathematicians have free-will, and may choose to believe that all numbers are rational. But any mathematician who is confronted with the proof of the Greeks must acknowledge that irrational numbers exist - he cannot deny it (so he really doesn’t have free will in this regard once incontrovertable proof has been presented).

Likewise, If there WERE such a proof of either God (as known by the Jews) or Jesus (as known by Christians) then there would be no possibility of denial for any intelligent person. This would not be “faith.”

and to go into to that even futher… why does he want to judge us?

Because we DO have free will. So what do we CHOOSE to do with our free will?

In a very real sense, Jesus does not “judge” us at all. We judge ourselves. Did we accept Jesus? If so, He will accept us. Did we reject Jesus? If so, he will reject us. The real decision is ours, not Jesus’. Jesus only confirms what we decide.

 

[redhen]

C.S. Lewis tries to use the moral argument. But anyone who reads that chapter in Mere Christianity with a critical eye will see it’s flaws.

atheism.about.com/od/cslewisnarnia/a/argumentmorals.htm

Lee Strobel tries to use an adversarial trial method using “evidence”.
Then again, that’s because he’s not a philosopher, historian or even a theologian, he’s a** lawyer**.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

of course it is? the bible wasn’t going to be written by aliens? god wrote the bible throught man. because he is eons and eons ahead of us in time and thought and is the smartest intellectual being in everything. christianity is the only religion that offers a solution of suffering. accept him. and you shall be in paradise. And ironically i think you know christianity and catechism is true.

To me, Christianity used to be true. I appreciate and cherish everything the Catholic Church has done for me; if it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t be the person I am today.

I still believe in God, of course, but He is like an imaginary friend to me… I don’t need Him anymore. All I needed to do was “quiet the storms” within myself and with others. Other than typical teenage problems, I’ve never felt better. So, your claim about Christianity being the only faith with a way to end suffering is only right to a certain extent; there are other faiths, you just have to look for them.

I wouldn’t recommend any of this for you, however. You seem to have denied your own faith Life. Setting you beliefs in stone, :tsktsk:

Ironically Yours.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Oh, really?

So trying to convert someone will drive them away from Christianity, huh?

Do you have any idea how inane and vapid that is? Billions have been converted through the missionary efforts of others, as Jesus and the Gospels (and history) both command and attest.

If you want to quit the field (as an agnostic) then go ahead (it is your cowardly right), but don’t you (as a coward) dare tell others (who are brave) to quit the good fight. There are those who will fight for the truth, in spite of cowards and weaklings such as you, sir, who flee the field.

#1) People, these days, just aren’t responsible with their faiths. You should see my classmates (Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, etc), it’s more like a competition rather than a religion.

#2) I never quit the field. I grew up. A coward? I don’t think you don’t know me enough to call me out of my name–or rather, display name. Besides, I assure you I am no coward. Leaving a solid Church sounds pretty risky to me.

#3) There’re different definitions of the word “truth.” Be careful with that word.

#4) I didn’t flee the fight. I’m still converting… just not to anything specific. It’s always best to convert someone into a faith that matches their personal beliefs, morals, and values. More importantly, it’s best to convert someone who is searching for a different faith… or faith, in general.

#5) Finally, it’s ma’am. Or young lady-- I’ll accept either.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[MrIsla]

To me, Christianity used to be true. I appreciate and cherish everything the Catholic Church has done for me; if it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t be the person I am today.

I still believe in God, of course, but He is like an imaginary friend to me… I don’t need Him anymore. All I needed to do was “quiet the storms” within myself and with others. Other than typical teenage problems, I’ve never felt better. So, your claim about Christianity being the only faith with a way to end suffering is only right to a certain extent; there are other faiths, you just have to look for them.

I wouldn’t recommend any of this for you, however. You seem to have denied your own faith Life. Setting you beliefs in stone, :tsktsk:

Ironically Yours.

you must obviously not cherish what cathecism has done for you.why must u judge me? i am very faithful to christ and his church. and this just proves how incorrect you are. im just puting this out in a philosophy stand point were an athiest would see confusion. and yes im insulted and what i said was true.

 

[Logos385]

I have read at least three of the books suggested in this thread (Both Lee Strobel books, as well as the one by the author who wrote “Evidence that demands a verdict”) and was not impressed. I read Antony Flew’s “There is a God,” and was slightly more intrigued. I read the Dawkin’s Delusion, which was simply laughable, etc. etc.

I’d say completely objectively (although as an Atheist) that your best luck, if conversion is your only goal, would be to point them to Antony Flew and in fact this forum. I have found that generally, “intellectual Atheists” (as you said in the OP) truly enjoy religious discussion, and won’t turn down an invitation to a forum. I have found people here to set up much better cases than many books, even if none of it has convinced me to re-gain my rejected faith : ).

So, Antony Flew and this forum… and honestly just be willing to discuss things on their terms: let them start with their philosophy and talk about it. If your’s holds up under their scrutiny, you’d be surprised what effect that could have on someone. Showing that you’ve thought about your beliefs is some of the strongest evidence you can give.

Please all, no reason to bring up any discussion about Atheism vs. Theism currently, for that is the subject of many many other posts. I’m just trying to be as helpful as possible to one searching for an answer to a question.
Thanks! : ).

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

you must obviously not cherish what cathecism has done for you.why must u judge me? i am very faithful to christ and his church. and this just proves how incorrect you are. im just puting this out in a philosophy stand point were an athiest would see confusion. and yes im insulted and what i said was true.

I’m very sorry I insulted you, but my personal beliefs and my own philosophies stand.

Ironically Yours.

 

[Kurusunami]

Attempting to convert atheists? Nay, tis an impossible job. Don’t bother, the more you try the more they hate you. Just show it through action. Bring them to church-sponsored events that help the community. Show them that faith is a great source of support. Do all of this, but don’t state any of it. He’ll notice, he’ll see. Or maybe not, I know I’d never.

 

[SeekingHeaven]

I used to be an atheist, and would hate when Christians would get Godly with me.

I came about through the witnessing of others, particularly my grandmother.

So if you want to convert others, be a good witness to Christ. That is the only way, trust me. There is no “proof” that God exist that is substantial, that you can hold in your hand. My faith in God is VERY solid and very strong, don’t get me wrong. But it is hard to magically convert people.

You can talk to people about God though, and let them know why you believe in God. When missionaries are sent out, they don’t go around forcing or persuading people to believe. They witness first by doing good deeds, and they also explain.

This person got it right, IMO.

 

[Detales]

My Mentor had an agreement within himself that he would “speak if asked, but otherwise remain appearing an ordinary person.” He was anything but that, and people flocked to listen to him because of his inclusive interest in who, and especially what, they were. He never attempted to convince anyone of what he espoused, and indeed caveated his listeners to find out for themselves if what he spoke, when asked, was true in their experience. By that means many came to see his understanding as true for themselves as well.

In the regard of experience, it is good to remember when dealing with atheists, or anyone for that matter, that their permises, especially emotionally internalized ones, may not even vaguely match yours. If anything speaks to such differently persuaded folks, it is your own shinning example. Then if they ask “What makes you so…?” then hopefull you will have a cogent answer for them.

In that respect, it would also be useful to remember that from the standpoints of history, translation, origins, and the Bible itself, many atheists have drawn valid, if not true in your eyes, cognitive lines to what they believe. Many of these actually bear investigation, if for no other reason than familiarity with the major detractions from Catholicism. For instance, I have even found that many monotheists have been branded as “atheists” are no such thing. The primary differince in this case is the distinction between a personal or impersonal God.

I’m saying that it is as useful to discover why someone might be an atheist or an agnostic as it is to attempt to convince them off the top of why you think you have an answer. Even if you do, many who argue on here for the Catholic faith present semantic and semiotic gobbldygook, despite their good intentions. So know your subject and know your partner in conversaton. Once again I recommend Gina Cerminara’s handbook for religious sanity. It is used by a Catholic friend of mine in his comparative religion classes, so please don’t dismiss it because of its unfortunate and misleading title: Insights for the Age of Aquarius. It is one of the most explicitly useful books about the phenomenon of religion and how we incorporate and think about it in existance, as far as I know.

 

[DavidFilmer]

#1) People, these days, just aren’t responsible with their faiths. You should see my classmates (Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, etc), it’s more like a competition rather than a religion.

What does that mean??? Are you capable of expressing a cogent thought? Do your professors accept such rambling, incoherent statements???

#2) I never quit the field. I grew up. A coward? I don’t think you don’t know me enough to call me out of my name–or rather, display name. Besides, I assure you I am no coward. Leaving a solid Church sounds pretty risky to me.

In the real, grown-up world, you are judged by your words (get used to it). Talk like a coward, and people will call you out as a coward - they don’t have to spend six months in therapy with you or partttay-ing with you to reach their decision. But, again, what are you talking about??? What is a “solid Church?” Are you capable of expressing a cogent thought???

#3) There’re different definitions of the word “truth.” Be careful with that word.

That might just be the most INANE thing you have said so far (and that’s some pretty stiff competition). Would you care to present (and actually cite) JUST TWO conflicting or incompatible definitions of the word “truth?” Are you a troll who is just trying to seed this forum with stupidity and foolishness?

#4) I didn’t flee the fight. I’m still converting… just not to anything specific. It’s always best to convert someone into a faith that matches their personal beliefs, morals, and values.

OK, I retract my previous comment. THIS is the most inane thing you have said. Convert someone to what they are already comfortable with??? What kind of conversion is that??? You ARE a troll.

#5) Finally, it’s ma’am. Or young lady-- I’ll accept either.

My apologies on this point, ma’am. On this point I will accept your word. Establishing your gender may be the ***only ***thing you are actually capable of establishing with clarity and accuracy.

 

[williamric]

I would recommend McDowell to idiots, but not to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

I will second that… Don’t give them McDowell

 

[williamric]

I used to be an atheist, and would hate when Christians would get Godly with me.

I came about through the witnessing of others, particularly my grandmother.

So if you want to convert others, be a good witness to Christ. That is the only way, trust me. There is no “proof” that God exist that is substantial, that you can hold in your hand. My faith in God is VERY solid and very strong, don’t get me wrong. But it is hard to magically convert people.

You can talk to people about God though, and let them know why you believe in God. When missionaries are sent out, they don’t go around forcing or persuading people to believe. They witness first by doing good deeds, and they also explain.

End of thread… no need to continue, well said

P.S. although the bold was not always true

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

What does that mean??? Are you capable of expressing a cogent thought? Do your professors accept such rambling, incoherent statements???

In the real, grown-up world, you are judged by your words (get used to it). Talk like a coward, and people will call you out as a coward - they don’t have to spend six months in therapy with you or partttay-ing with you to reach their decision. But, again, what are you talking about??? What is a “solid Church?” Are you capable of expressing a cogent thought???

That might just be the most INANE thing you have said so far (and that’s some pretty stiff competition). Would you care to present (and actually cite) JUST TWO conflicting or incompatible definitions of the word “truth?” Are you a troll who is just trying to seed this forum with stupidity and foolishness?

OK, I retract my previous comment. THIS is the most inane thing you have said. Convert someone to what they are already comfortable with??? What kind of conversion is that??? You ARE a troll.

My apologies on this point, ma’am. On this point I will accept your word. Establishing your gender may be the ***only ***thing you are actually capable of establishing with clarity and accuracy.

:ehh: You seem to be under the impression that I am a college student. Filmer, I’m a Senior in high school. I am only seventeen. Besides… never been much of the party girl. Ugh!

On one of your points that stood out the most: Of course people will judge me-- Big fat DUH! But will you step down to their level and make the mistake of acting as God by judging me? Especially when I would never intentionally do anything to insult you?

Ironically Yours.

 

[DavidFilmer]

make the mistake of acting as God by judging me?

Give me a break! Do you really have NO IDEA what the passage you infer means?

You are a troll, plain and simple. I checked your profile and read a fair number of your posts. You consistently offer the dumbest and worst possible answers - it’s as if you are TRYING to seed the forum with garbage (which, of course, you are - nobody is *really *as stupid as your posts).

You are nothing but a vandal defacing the forum with graffiti. I’m calling you out. You aren’t fooling me, and I don’t think you are fooling many other people either. Consider yourself exposed for the vandal that you are.

 

[yellowbicycle]

Mr Isla - I suggest loving them.
They never see it coming.

Seriously, love them. And love the Lord. And love your life. It’s a slow process, but it works.

It took six million years of slow but steady water flow to carve the grand canyon. Hope your ready for the long haul, if you get my drift…

 

[Nepenthe]

Wow. Sit back and breathe, DavidFilmer, or maybe go outside for a walk. You didn’t say anything coherent yourself, except to insult Blade and Blood. Also you could stand some work on the ole spelling and punctuation, chum.

I find it bleakly amusing that on this forum, the more Catholic you pronounce yourself to be, the more leeway for hatred and rancor you receive. Had a nontheist or atheist (or muslim, I expect) replied to you the way you did to Blade and Blood, they’d be banned so fast the whole forum would get whiplash.