Athiest, how can you not believe in God?

[Mirdath]

I know what you’re saying Mirdath, but we have different responsibilities to our children.

Someday you may have your own children, Mirdath. You will be responsible for their physical welfare, as well as their spiritual welfare.

If your child is about to run in front of a car, and he/she is so obstinate that they often do exactly the opposite of what you say - then do you say “Don’t run in front of that car!” or do you say “Run in front of that car.” Or do you say nothing?

If you say “run in front of the car” banking on the obstinacy, or you say nothing, and your child gets killed by the car, could you live with yourself? Probably not.

If you say “Don’t run in front of the car!” and they do it anyway, your child would still be dead, but you tried to prevent it. This would still be difficult to accept, but not as bad as above.

If you say “Well, parents shouldn’t be telling their kids what to do (or even making suggestions)” then…well, you’re just like my daughter

By the way, I used the simple example of the young child and a car, but I think the general theme can be extended to drugs, alcohol, sex outside marriage, etc, and things of spiritual concern.

All very true, but remember: at some point the kid isn’t a kid any more. Your responsibility as a parent is not to hover over her to make sure she never so much as dashes her foot against a stone – it’s to prepare her to look out for rocks herself. You can’t be there to prevent her making mistakes all the time, and at this point, really, don’t you deserve a break?

Your daughter’s in college now. Am I correct in thinking she’s not living with you any more? She’s left the nest, then, and I’m afraid you’re really just going to have to come to terms with that. I know you’re concerned for her soul, just as my parents still are about mine; but if you truly want to keep her on the best possible terms with religion, don’t force the issue (especially if her problem is with its rigid authority!). I have not come to Catholicism, nor do I imagine I ever will – but if the journey is to be made, starting with a good attitude towards the faith would seem to make it an easier and a shorter trip. You’ve done your part in parenting; now it’s in her hands to do well, materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

She will always be your daughter, but she was only a child for a what may seem to you a few short years.

 

[ricmat]

don’t you deserve a break?

You’ve done your part in parenting; now it’s in her hands to do well, materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

Thanks for the advice.

Dashing your foot against a stone is not what we’re talking about here. That’s why I used the lethal example of the car.

You’ve actually just proven a point I made with my daughter recently - that everybody is a child rearing expert. Especially the childless. Or those whose kids haven’t reached teenagerhood yet.
Or kids themselves.

I wish you the best (and Nepenthe as well). And if you ever have children, pray that they don’t give you too much trouble

You still seem to be open to God, but need to be spiritually hit over the head with a 2 x 4. I’ll pray for a sign for you (but not the 2 x 4, that might hurt a bit).

 

[Mirdath]

Thanks for the advice.

Dashing your foot against a stone is not what we’re talking about here. That’s why I used the lethal example of the car.

You’ve actually just proven a point I made with my daughter recently - that everybody is a child rearing expert. Especially the childless. Or those whose kids haven’t reached teenagerhood yet.
Or kids themselves.

Hehehe. Well, your issue seems to be much less in actual parenting and more in seeing the situation how your daughter might – which is mostly what I was trying to show, having been in more or less her exact situation as you described it

You see hell as an oncoming car, or worse; to my nontheist mind, the lake of fire is a fable, and hell is something we create for ourselves in this life – more of a stone. A worry, but a personal one.

I’m not critiquing your skill at parenting – far from it! But you seemed to be a little confused on some things that I know quite well from the opposite side of the fence, so I do my best

I wish you the best (and Nepenthe as well). And if you ever have children, pray that they don’t give you too much trouble

We’re not that worried. Everybody else better be watching their backs though

You still seem to be open to God, but need to be spiritually hit over the head with a 2 x 4. I’ll pray for a sign for you (but not the 2 x 4, that might hurt a bit).

I imagine a spiritual 2x4 would not consist of matter, and therefore its judicious application wouldn’t hurt physically at least – but thank you kindly!

 

[ricmat]

1. Well, your issue seems to be much less in actual parenting and more in seeing the situation how your daughter might – which is mostly what I was trying to show, having been in more or less her exact situation as you described it
2. You see hell as an oncoming car, or worse; to my nontheist mind, the lake of fire is a fable, and hell is something we create for ourselves in this life – more of a stone. A worry, but a personal one.
3. I’m not critiquing your skill at parenting – far from it! But you seemed to be a little confused on some things that I know quite well from the opposite side of the fence, so I do my best
4. We’re not that worried. Everybody else better be watching their backs though

1. Trust me, I can see it her way (and your way). But often, experience and parental responsibilities are more important.
2. You totally lost me on this one. Or I inadvertently lost you. If anything, I was using death-by-auto as an analogy to spiritual-death-of-soul. Which is of concern to me, and should be of concern to everybody.

Of Hell (and Heaven), St. Faustina said “One day, I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end without realizing it. And at the end there was a horrible precipice; that is the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road, there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness, and the souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings.”

By my very conservative estimate, most of those with tears in their eyes are parents whose children are on the other path

1. See number 1 above.
2. See post above especially “Everybody is a child rearing expert, especially the childless…” [Mirdath, I’m putting this thread in my permanent files so that 20 years from now I can say “I told you so.” ] Actually, I don’t think I ever said that in my life. So this is an idle threat.

 

[Suat]

I have not read the entire thread, but I do not believe in God because I see no evidence of his/her/its existence.

Science has gotten pretty good at explaining ‘how’ we came about. And although I accept that science does not yet have all the answers, I am not willing to posit a supernatural being in order to fill in the blanks of our limited knowledge. If someone needs a ‘why’, then they are welcome to turn to religion. I, however, do not see the need.

 

[ricmat]

I have not read the entire thread, but I do not believe in God because I see no evidence of his/her/its existence.

Science has gotten pretty good at explaining ‘how’ we came about. And although I accept that science does not yet have all the answers, I am not willing to posit a supernatural being in order to fill in the blanks of our limited knowledge. If someone needs a ‘why’, then they are welcome to turn to religion. I, however, do not see the need.

Actually, I’m worn out arguing with atheists, and I’m ready for bed, but here’s some thoughts.

“Why” is important because it eventually leads to the path to true happiness, and an eternal one at that. Currently, society says that acquisition of money, or power, or fame, or in rare cases, altruism will make you happy. Indeed, we are “wired” to search for “good” things, “happy” things, “beautiful” things. But science cannot itself tell you what is good, happy, or beautiful, or just.

The fact that we can actually talk sensibly about such things as “beauty”, or “justice” - transcendent concepts, is because we are composed of both a soul (spiritual) as well as material things. If we were material only, we could not grasp transcendent concepts.

Science has gotten good (or has it, the explanations keep changing all the time) at explaining cause and effect. But with a limited time since the beginning of time, there must be an uncaused first cause or you end up with an infinite (in time) regression, which actually contradicts the science we think we understand.

If you have not read “The Science Before Science”, I strongly recommend it. Some day I’ll get my copy back (currently loaned out) and we could talk about what it says.

 

[maryannashworth]

I have not read the entire thread, but I do not believe in God because I see no evidence of his/her/its existence.

Science has gotten pretty good at explaining ‘how’ we came about. And although I accept that science does not yet have all the answers, I am not willing to posit a supernatural being in order to fill in the blanks of our limited knowledge. If someone needs a ‘why’, then they are welcome to turn to religion. I, however, do not see the need.

C.S. Lewis said that the scientific theory of evolution without intelligent design was one of the most dangerous things that has been cooked up to hurt religious thought. The communist figured that out right away. This is a theory that atheist often use to excuse themselves from looking for a God that demands moral actions for society.

How many times have I heard business people say all the traffic will bear meaning we’ll take everything we can get for our product just or not. I believe in the ownership of private property rather than the government owning it because a family must have some security especially if they work for it. Yet so many humanist or kindly people so to speak have a very wrong view of what is good for the world. We now have more freedom for sin than we do for good. But that is a long story.

Science has proven nothing. When a scientist can make something from absolutely nothing perhaps I will listen. That won’t happen. Only a glorious prime source creator could come up with such a complicated world as this. When I have to look at a tree and think it somehow can go on to help make a better world or an unintelligent blob come up out of wherever and turn out to be this could be wonderful world if it would come together in Christ’s love and mercy than we will have a world really worth something.

As of now more and more children are turning away because of rebellion just as Satan did. Thank God there is mercy and forgiveness but I have felt the peace of God even amid great turmoil and I know it can be felt even if I were to lose my children. But like Moses I beg for them and like Monica I cry for them and like Jesus I offer my little suffering for them and others. These are just children yet they are exposed to so much porn, so much sex outside of marriage, so much materialism.

They say it’s the parents letting society off the hook they think but I don’t think God will look at it that way. I can tell you right now they will always be your children when they are 50 and you are seventy. You will grieve for them. And so I try to help fix the world including some supposedly good Catholics who have gone astray by ignoring little ones especially those with learning disabilities or someone who is sickly. But occasionally you find some good teachers. Don’t worry public schools have the name but don’t play the game either. They just don’t know how. That is one thing they don’t like to deal with in catholic schools. But still I love my faith in spite of all the confusion.

There are still many good people but they have been fooled by wrong philosophies. I love the Psalms because they speak to my heart. I go to mass every morning say two rosaries a day, do the divine mercy prayer and say the morning and evening and night prayers of the breivery. Yes I am older and have more time and it is the one thing I can still do for my family and the world. I am not so holy but I am very needy needing help for family. I rememer my younger days when I wasn’t much of anything not that I didn’t believe I just didn’t think much about it. We will keep praying they all come home.

Thank God for all the monasteries that have people praying for us and with us and all the saints that we can call on and believe the angels that surround us. Praise God for all the things that the Catholic Church has brought into my life. I think of others and I think there but for God could go I. But somewhere somebody must have prayed for me because thank God I made it. We love you guys and do understand much better than you think. You said it right when you said your parents worried about you. It comes with the territory. As the man says when you have kids are you going to teach them athiesm? It will come across even if you try to hide it. mary ann.

Good night. I always pray just before I go to bed and if I have said everything and have time left there is a little prayer that takes little thought . Here goes " Jesus and Mary I love you, save souls." and say it for those in purgatory and they will pray for you. Good night again. I forgot to tell everyone. I write religious articles and plan on using some of the ideas you have put out in an article to help others understand. That is unless you specifically tell me not to. They won’t know who you are.

 

[maryannashworth]

C.S. Lewis said that the scientific theory of evolution without intelligent design was one of the most dangerous things that has been cooked up to hurt religious thought. The communist figured that out right away. This is a theory that atheist often use to excuse themselves from looking for a God that demands moral actions for society.

How many times have I heard business people say all the traffic will bear meaning we’ll take everything we can get for our product just or not. I believe in the ownership of private property rather than the government owning it because a family must have some security especially if they work for it. Yet so many humanist or kindly people so to speak have a very wrong view of what is good for the world. We now have more freedom for sin than we do for good. But that is a long story.

Science has proven nothing. When a scientist can make something from absolutely nothing perhaps I will listen. That won’t happen. Only a glorious prime source creator could come up with such a complicated world as this. When I have to look at a tree and think it somehow can go on to help make a better world or an unintelligent blob come up out of wherever and turn out to be this could be wonderful world if it would come together in Christ’s love and mercy than we will have a world really worth something.

As of now more and more children are turning away because of rebellion just as Satan did. Thank God there is mercy and forgiveness but I have felt the peace of God even amid great turmoil and I know it can be felt even if I were to lose my children. But like Moses I beg for them and like Monica I cry for them and like Jesus I offer my little suffering for them and others. These are just children yet they are exposed to so much porn, so much sex outside of marriage, so much materialism.

They say it’s the parents letting society off the hook they think but I don’t think God will look at it that way. I can tell you right now they will always be your children when they are 50 and you are seventy. You will grieve for them. And so I try to help fix the world including some supposedly good Catholics who have gone astray by ignoring little ones especially those with learning disabilities or someone who is sickly. But occasionally you find some good teachers. Don’t worry public schools have the name but don’t play the game either. They just don’t know how. That is one thing they don’t like to deal with in catholic schools. But still I love my faith in spite of all the confusion.

There are still many good people but they have been fooled by wrong philosophies. I love the Psalms because they speak to my heart. I go to mass every morning say two rosaries a day, do the divine mercy prayer and say the morning and evening and night prayers of the breivery. Yes I am older and have more time and it is the one thing I can still do for my family and the world. I am not so holy but I am very needy needing help for family. I rememer my younger days when I wasn’t much of anything not that I didn’t believe I just didn’t think much about it. We will keep praying they all come home.

Thank God for all the monasteries that have people praying for us and with us and all the saints that we can call on and believe the angels that surround us. Praise God for all the things that the Catholic Church has brought into my life. I think of others and I think there but for God could go I. But somewhere somebody must have prayed for me because thank God I made it. We love you guys and do understand much better than you think. You said it right when you said your parents worried about you. It comes with the territory. As the man says when you have kids are you going to teach them athiesm? It will come across even if you try to hide it. mary ann.

Good night. I always pray just before I go to bed and if I have said everything and have time left there is a little prayer that takes little thought . Here goes " Jesus and Mary I love you, save souls." and say it for those in purgatory and they will pray for you. Good night again. I forgot to tell everyone. I write religious articles and plan on using some of the ideas you have put out in an article to help others understand. That is unless you specifically tell me not to. They won’t know who you are.

 

[TomPiltoff]

But science cannot itself tell you what is good, happy, or beautiful, or just.

And The Bible cannot tell us why babies are born with addictions to drugs, live for a few days and ultimately die.

You wouldn’t consider that proof debunking God, the same way I don’t take your comment on science to be solid.

The fact that we can actually talk sensibly about such things as “beauty”, or “justice” - transcendent concepts, is because we are composed of both a soul (spiritual) as well as material things. If we were material only, we could not grasp transcendent concepts.

That’s simply not true at all.

 

[ricmat]

You wouldn’t consider that proof debunking God, the same way I don’t take your comment on science to be solid.

That’s simply not true at all.

The book I recommended goes into this in detail. If you are a logical person, you might enjoy reading the book (The Science Before Science).

 

[QuietTimes]

And The Bible cannot tell us why babies are born with addictions to drugs, live for a few days and ultimately die.

.

Maybe not. But Natural Law can tell you why this happens.

 

[maryannashworth]

One of the reasons I believe in God the way the Catholic Church presents Him and especially in the love of Jesus Christ and all the helps they give me is that I believe in that kind of world that he presents and also that He gives me a chance to help.

I understand since there is free will and lots of suffering happens and I would say my family has a terrific amount of its share I can still see the world as God would have it if we worked together.

He did pray that we would be one because it would be easier for people to believe and so it would. So I try very hard to help clarify truth not as I see it but I have been taught by the Church Jesus established and not just because it tells me but because I have investigated their reasoning and God has helped me see that it is true. Truth sets one free because it is like a rock that you can base your life on. Not because you then understand everything that happens in your life or the world but because it is the most truth and there is no where else to go as Peter said.

Yet as the years go by I understand more and more because I keep communicating with the Lord and studying those people that spend their life meditating on truth not just for the moment but over the centuries. To me not to know or not to believe for the time that happened to me was excruciatingly painful.

No one is made unable to believe but they have to meet God and he reveals himself when you are ready to accept. If he revealed himself before it would go against you. Yes it is hard to see God in the suffering he allows man to cause but for those that are close to him He comforts them and brings good out it for them. Good not as the world sees but as the soul sees.

Suffering helps us to learn to hate the sins of the world and also for those who do see and love those that don’t see to love mercifully because if I want mercy for my family I also want mercy for others. Revenge is not a word in my book although I will fight to the end to help rid the world of evil.

The nice thing is that because I trust God I trust Him to take my effort and make it count even if I never see it. There are so many good things about trusting in God that those of us that do or manage it want to share our happiness in spite of the babies born in sad shape.

in todays world some aren’t even allowed life at all. We also know that this life is not all there is and that in itself is wonderful. The worst thing about hell and even as an atheist is that there is no hope for anything better.Thank God for hope. Thank God for mercy. Thank God for helping me love my enemies, Thank God for coming to me in the sacrament.

What great love Christianity shows to the world. Yes we are the light of the world and Thank God I am a part of that light. What joy that I can help bring some happiness to others because I love to bring happiness to others.

About trying to help your children refind their religion and the truth is that someday when they return and many do they will thank you for keeping on keeping on. If you don’t and they return they may very well say. Why didn’t you keep telling me. If they don’t return you really haven’t lost much. But you have to watch and pray for the right times with God’s guidance and help and Thank God again that we can pray for our children.

Who do atheist thank when things go right. I am not sure but I am sure I am very glad God took me in as the song Amazing Grace sings about. I am also a church musician and I love music and hope to dance, play and sing all over God’s Heaven someday.Now my old body is wearing out and it is hard. Oh but I can dream can’t I? Good Night.

But sad to say U.T. lost heavily to Florida. I’m glad there are some other good things in my life. Have a happy life and I hope you meet up with the God that I love so much. Mary Ann

 

[TomPiltoff]

Maybe not. But Natural Law can tell you why this happens.

My point being that there are things science can tell us that ‘God’ cannot.

And I’m sure for others there are things God tells us that science can’t.

 

[QuietTimes]

My point being that there are things science can tell us that ‘God’ cannot.

And I’m sure for others there are things God tells us that science can’t.

You dont have believe in God to believe in natural law. Or common sense, that all of lifes quandries are not in the bible. That’s all I meant.
God created science…

 

[ricmat]

About trying to help your children refind their religion and the truth is that someday when they return and many do they will thank you for keeping on keeping on. If you don’t and they return they may very well say. Why didn’t you keep telling me. If they don’t return you really haven’t lost much. But you have to watch and pray for the right times with God’s guidance and help and Thank God again that we can pray for our children.

Now my old body is wearing out and it is hard. Oh but I can dream can’t I? Good Night.

I went to the vigil Mass this evening, and the Gospel was the story of the prodigal son. In my case, it’s a prodigal daughter. So between the Gospel, and your lines above, I’ve got a bit more hope. Thank you Maryann.

Your posts are very insightful, and I know they come from your heart. I hope your old body doesn’t wear out anytime soon

Good night, and God bless you and everyone who reads this.

 

[cpayne]

Hey, Mirdath, I was trying to reach you but can’t. Can you PM me or not?

(Sorry, everyone. This was the only way I could think of to reach Mirdath. Now I’m quietly slipping out. Christ’s love to everyone, best regards, cpayne)

 

[Nepenthe]

QuietTimes:

You dont have believe in God to believe in natural law. Or common sense, that all of lifes quandries are not in the bible. That’s all I meant.

Whenever people bring out those two little goodies, ‘natural law’ and ‘common sense,’ a flag goes up immediately in my mind. Those are usually code for ‘the way I see things is so obviously right and correct, it need not be properly explained or justified!’ The one that really chafes me is this ‘natural law’ stuff.

‘Natural law’ is neither natural nor a law, except when one is speaking of things like the ‘law of gravity.’ When those words is applied to human societal behavior, it’s hijacking the words of both science (to make it sound scholarly) and of legality (to add a sense of moral weight). In short, it’s pseudoscientific and pseudolegalistic malarkey, couched in a load of self-serving claptrap that does nothing to hide its fallacies (appeals to majority, tradition, and authority, just to name to most obvious, not to mention a whole bunch of a priori assumption) from an inquiring observer.

Need I even mention that ‘common sense’ is an oxymoron, right up there with ‘ornamental kale?’ ‘But everyone knows that (fill in the blank - all black, or female, or Polish people are stupid, all atheists and Democrats and Catholic priests are immoral, and we’ll be out of Iraq in a year or two max!)’ and so on. Yai.

I’m truly not trying to be contentious! But if something is claimed to be ‘natural law’ it had better have a better foundation than this stuff, and not be something one has to Believe in. I would much rather people cop to their irrationality up front.

Another poster claimed something about ‘atheists are capable of doing absolutely anything with the intent of doing good for humanity’ and then listed, oh what was it…abortion, euthanasia, ‘fetus farming’ and some other stuff. It’s equally true to state that theists are capable of doing absolutely anything to save everyone’s undemonstrated eternal souls from an undemonstrated eternal perdition, including physical and mental torture, murder genocide, institutionalized molestation and rape, and terrorism, in the name of their (yep, undemonstrated) God or Gods. Well, we can tu quoque from here to the entropy-death of the universe! And a fat lot of good that does anyone.

We’re all capable of screwing up, whether or not we Believe in the supernatural! When we all strive to excel, though, in kindness and particularly humility, then we may just make a difference.

 

[ricmat]

Whenever people bring out those two little goodies, ‘natural law’ and ‘common sense,’ a flag goes up immediately in my mind. Those are usually code for ‘the way I see things is so obviously right and correct, it need not be properly explained or justified!’ The one that really chafes me is this ‘natural law’ stuff.

‘Natural law’ is neither natural nor a law, except when one is speaking of things like the ‘law of gravity.’ When those words is applied to human societal behavior, it’s hijacking the words of both science (to make it sound scholarly) and of legality (to add a sense of moral weight). In short, it’s pseudoscientific and pseudolegalistic malarkey, couched in a load of self-serving claptrap that does nothing to hide its fallacies (appeals to majority, tradition, and authority, just to name to most obvious, not to mention a whole bunch of a priori assumption) from an inquiring observer.

Nepenthe - The best debaters learn and understand their opponents’ points very well, and THEN dissemble them to prove that they’re wrong (for example see St. Thomas’ Summa Theologica). You don’t seem to have a clue what natural law is, but set up straw man arguments to knock down instead. “How easy. Sigh.”

You then go on to attribute base motives to people who even use the term.

Nobody here has the responsibility to teach you about natural law, but there are some good books out there. One I can recommend is “50 Questions on the Natural Law” by Charles Rice.

Oh… and say Hi to Mirdath

 

[Nepenthe]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do understand what ‘natural law’ is about, and it’s still nonsense. I have discussed it at some length on these fora as well, and I don’t feel like a replay at this moment I have also read the Summa, thanks so much.

I have attributed no base motives to anyone, however. Perhaps questionable ones, but not base ones either, and certainly nothing nasty compared to the motives that some board members constantly attribute to ALL nontheists. I actually think many people are not even aware of their own motives, in the way that most of us are hardly ever aware of air – it just wouldn’t occur to them. Nor did I set up any straw men: until you can demonstrate that ‘natural law’ (as opposed to stuff like physics, chemistry, etc – I’m talking about the kind so often used for moral justification) is, in fact, the way things always work, without recourse to Faith, then there is no reason to call it objective truth, and it is again, neither natural, nor a law.

 

[Exalt]

How could you not believe in God?
I mean, how do you explain not only how human life begun, but where do you think we get our feelings, thoughts, ideas etc from?
Granted, nature is pretty clever, but not clever enough to not only invent ‘humans’, but millions of other species of life onto one planet.
If there was no God, where do all these things come from?
I just cant understand it, please try and explain it to me.

I found this strange rock one day out in my front yard. It was rectangular - unlike all the smooth, round stones out there - and oddly colored - blue, unlike the grey stones surrounded by it. I asked my friend where it might have come from. She told me it must have been placed there by a space alien. I, of course, thought that was a ridiculous claim, so I rejected it. But my friend told me “if you have no better explaination, the only choice is to believe mine, even though it sounds crazy.”

To answer your question, I don’t know why the world is what it is. But the Christian God is not sufficient. I may never know why a blue, rectangular rock was suddenly place in my front yard - but I’m not going to believe a fantastic, unsupported explaination *just *because it’s the only explaination available.