Atonement

[MariaG]

Jimmy,

Do you agree with Didi and say that God did not turn His back on Christ on the Cross.

I was taught in the protestant churches that God turned His back on Christ not out of anger but because God is so Holy that He was unable to gaze upon His son who had taken on the sins of the world.

In this scenario, it is not anger, it just is. God is Holy and so could not look upon sin.

Didi says because of the Trinity this is not possible, (if I understood her correctly). I guess I have always thought about it like God turning away from the Human nature of Christ.

It is apparent there is a wide range to this. It appears mine was closer to the Catholic than others. I am just trying to find out what exactly what the Catholic postion is.

As pertains to My God my God why have you forsaken me, Did God turn His back on Christ because He could not gaze upon him for the sin he bore for me?

Thanks,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

posted by Jimmy

You hit upon one of my main problems with substitutionary attonement. The protestants actually take the idea of the atonement and they say that Christ was actually made sinfull when he was on the cross. They say that our sins were made his and that he was guilty of them. It is a very unCatholic thing to say.

I never understood it that way. Of course, I eventually came to the Catholic Church so obviously I wasn’t as good of a “Bible” scholar as others. Maybe this is what they were trying to say, but not how I understood it. He bore them for me, but I never considered He was made guilty of them.

Once again, there clearly is a range that is taught. But I guess for swordoflight, the extreme end is where his friend is so, good explanation.

Time’s up.
God Bless,
Maria

 

[jimmy]

MariaG:

Jimmy,

Do you agree with Didi and say that God did not turn His back on Christ on the Cross.

I was taught in the protestant churches that God turned His back on Christ not out of anger but because God is so Holy that He was unable to gaze upon His son who had taken on the sins of the world.

In this scenario, it is not anger, it just is. God is Holy and so could not look upon sin.

Didi says because of the Trinity this is not possible, (if I understood her correctly). I guess I have always thought about it like God turning away from the Human nature of Christ.

It is apparent there is a wide range to this. It appears mine was closer to the Catholic than others. I am just trying to find out what exactly what the Catholic postion is.

As pertains to My God my God why have you forsaken me, Did God turn His back on Christ because He could not gaze upon him for the sin he bore for me?

Thanks,
Maria

I believe that God turned his back on Christ. But I wouldn’t say it was to punish Christ.

I am not sure how to understand that verse.

 

[jimmy]

MariaG:

I never understood it that way. Of course, I eventually came to the Catholic Church so obviously I wasn’t as good of a “Bible” scholar as others. Maybe this is what they were trying to say, but not how I understood it. He bore them for me, but I never considered He was made guilty of them.

Once again, there clearly is a range that is taught. But I guess for swordoflight, the extreme end is where his friend is so, good explanation.

Time’s up.
God Bless,
Maria

I spoke a little quickly. What I said is not characteristic of all protestants.

 

[reen12]

Dear Jimmy,

Thanks for your thoughts on the C.S. Lewis portrayal
of the Aslan/witch episode.
You’ve given me food for thought,
reen12:tiphat:

 

[jacobaer]

Brothers and sisters,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Suffering Servant of the Old Testament book of Isaiah. Here is Isaiah 53 which details the sufferings of this Servant. I’ve bolded the substitutionary language.

1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 **But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. **6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; **for the transgression of my people he was stricken. **9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Any comments?
Jacobaer

 

[jimmy]

reen12:

Dear Jimmy,

Thanks for your thoughts on the C.S. Lewis portrayal
of the Aslan/witch episode.
You’ve given me food for thought,
reen12:tiphat:

No problem.

I love C.S. Lewis’ books but that one thing was a little wrong.

 

[MariaG]

jacobaer,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Suffering Servant of the Old Testament book of Isaiah. Here is Isaiah 53 which details the sufferings of this Servant. I’ve bolded the substitutionary language.

I have misplaced my CCC :crying:I also have been having a really hard time posting. Errors seem to abound. I think I’ve caught a cold!

If you could post a link to the Catechism on line, (I usually don’t use it online, I much prefer my own hardcopy) I would appreciate it.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed

---

This verse says he was punished.

I will try to link the catechism. But as I said, I seem to be having trouble even posting. Be back as soon as I am able.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Pug]

MariaG:

I have misplaced my CCC :crying:I also have been having a really hard time posting. Errors seem to abound. I think I’ve caught a cold!

If you could post a link to the Catechism on line

MariaG,

I haven’t been able to post reliably either.:crying:I’m interested in this thread, and if this goes through, it is the first one that’s worked for me on this thread for a few days. Sorry to anyone to whom I owe an answer. I am following along and haven’t disappeared. Here is a general link to the CCC online for you:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[PeterC]

Here’s my favorite search engine.

Catholic Searches

Among other resources you can search the:
· New American Bible
· Catechism
· Catholic Encyclopedia
· Vatican II Documents
· Canon Law
· Vatican

 

[Didi]

I found some more great bible verses to show that Jesus and the Father are united and that Jesus willingly died for us:

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”

John 14:11
“Believe me that I am in the Father and Father in me.”

John 10: 11; 17-18
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."

 

[MariaG]

posted by Didi

I found some more great bible verses to show that Jesus and the Father are united and that Jesus willingly died for us:

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”

John 14:11
“Believe me that I am in the Father and Father in me.”

John 10: 11; 17-18
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."

Hi Didi,
I understand that the Jesus and the Father are one. I understand that He willing gave His life.

I do not see how those two facts mean that the Interpretation that God was unable to gaze upon Jesus is not part of “My God My God why have you forsaken me”.

Is there a specific CCC reference?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I’ve read the CCC

There is a lot of information on the Trinity in the Catechism:

242, 246, 253-267

I do not see understand how the oneness of God is violated by saying God could not gaze on Christ when He bore our sins.

Truly confused here.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Didi]

MariaG:

I do not see understand how the oneness of God is violated by saying God could not gaze on Christ when He bore our sins.

Hi Maria –

I am on the forums only occasionally, so please don’t think I’m ignoring you or not getting back to you!

I am wondering where the idea that God could not gaze on Christ came from – is that found in scripture?

Since the Trinity is forever united, I’m just not sure how it would be possible for the Father to turn away from Jesus or to abandon Him.

Surely Jesus, in His humanity, felt abandoned – especially by all his followers who swore they would follow Him to death and then denied knowing Him. In His humanity He may have also felt for a time that the Father abandoned Him, just as we do when we are going through a difficult time; but God never abandons us, so why would God the Father abandon His Only Son at the time when Jesus needed Him most? God is Love. Love doesn’t abandon or turn away when times get difficult.

A couple of years ago when my Dad had open heart surgery it was very difficult for our family. He was in intensive care for several days and was in and out of consciousness because he was sedated due to the respirator. At times he would begin to stir and become very restless and say crazy things. This was very hard for all of us to see, but Love made us be there for him anyway and see Him through the difficult times, including sometimes helping to restrain him when he was out of control.

I hope this helps.

 

[Gene_C]

Hi Didi,

I was following this thread intently when the Forum went down for upgrades. I think what Maria and I are trying to get across is the substitutionary language of Isaiah 53 which the Church tells us is a prophecy of our Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning death for us. There is some very harsh language in this chapter, including the verses that say He was punished for our sins. This seems to draw out a negative reaction in many devout well-meaning Catholics and a lot of opinion has been posted as to the meaning. Plus there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction from some quarters against any Evangelical theology.

What did Jesus mean when He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Was He just quoting Psalm 22 because that is how He felt at that moment? Or was Psalm 22 a prophecy of what He would go through on the Cross?

You are right about the eternal union of the Father and the Son but it may be that He experienced this separation in His human nature. I think a lot of this is speculation because how could we really know what our Savior went through for us.

What I am looking for is the official teaching of the Church, what we are allowed to believe, which may be in a broad range, and what teaching has been condemned. So far, I haven’t hit the “mother lode.”

Blessings,
Gene

 

[MariaG]

Hi Didi,

I did not think you were ignoring!

It comes from the phrase, my God, My God, why have you forsaken me. (There may be others, but I am not aware of them.)

From my understanding, Jesus was not just pointing people to prophecy by saying those words (start of psalm 22) , but it was an actual event also. It was both. Not just one or the other.

Gene sums it up very nicely. Better than I did!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Didi]

Mark 15: 34 is the passage where Jesus cries “My God, my God, why have You abandoned me?”

Here is the Jerome Bibilical Commentary on this verse:

“As a quotation from Old Testament Psalms, it can hardly be taken literally as an expression of real despair or dereliction. Rather, Jesus applies to himself an OT passage that sums up the suffering of the upright individual who turns to his God in the stress of hostile oppostiion and its ensuing depression. In using the Psalms, Jesus does not express the feeling that his life’s work has failed and that God has therefore abandoned him; he identifies himself with a biblical precedent, the persecuted upright man who has trusted in Yahweh, and found in him the source of his consolation and triumph.”

From the Collegeville Bible Commentary:

“Mark does not want his Christians to mistake Jesus’ cry for what it is not. Rather, he wants them to recognize in Jesus’ last words and death the ultimate act of self-giving and trust. Like the Psalmist who first uttered this cry, Mark’s Jesus believes that God will hear him and will give him life, precisely because he suffered and died out of love and obedience! Who would ever believe that life could come from death? Yet Mark wants his readers to believe that this is true, not only for Jesus but also for anyone who will follow in his steps.”

I’ll keep looking for more…

 

[Didi]

Collegeville Bible Commentary on Isaiah 53:

“The significance of this passage goes beyond the historical identification of the Servant. It presents a model of piety which allows that suffering can have a positive purpose. As such it broke with a long biblical tradition that regarded suffering as a punishment for sin. It laid the foundation for one of the basic ideas of Christianity.”

 

[Didi]

Read the Catechism, 599-618 “Christ’s Redemptive Death in God’s Plan of Salvation.”

Here’s one section, #603:

“Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed in us the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ Having thus established him in solidarity with sinners, God ‘did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,’ so that we might be ‘reconciled to God by the death of his Son.’”

 

[MariaG]

Hmm

In using the Psalms, Jesus does not express the feeling that his life’s work has failed

This is not what Protestants mean when Christ cries those words.

he identifies himself with a biblical precedent, the persecuted upright man who has trusted in Yahweh, and found in him the source of his consolation and triumph."

And while this was not taught in these words, it is not contradictory.

Rather, he wants them to recognize in Jesus’ last words and death the ultimate act of self-giving and trust. Like the Psalmist who first uttered this cry, Mark’s Jesus believes that God will hear him and will give him life, precisely because he suffered and died out of love and obedience!

This is understood. How does this contradict God’s gaze turning from Christ?

I was not taught that Christ thought God no longer loved Him and had actually abandoned Him, but since their relationship was so complete, that by the Father simply turning away His gaze, not actually abandoning Him, but not looking at all the sin, Christ felt bereft of the constant gaze of God.
And while the suffering aspect is not understood by most Protestants in the same way, nor taught to me (Scott Hahn has helped me tremendously in understanding suffering), it does not address the gaze of God.

I truly thank you for the time you are spending on this! Please do not give up!

God Bless,
Maria