Atonement

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Seraphim73 said:
Jesus voluntarily took upon Himself the sins of the world, even “becoming sin” as St Paul would say. And He expiated those sins through His righteousness …
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No, he expiated those sins through extreme physical torture. If he is perfectly obedient, and thereby “becomes sin”, why can he not be “lifted up” as a brazen serpent who is not suffering unbearable physical torture? Why is the immense suffering of the brazen serpent the most fitting expiation? Unless he **is **in fact being punished. If he “becomes sin” what other reason for his suffering is there? It’s **sin **we’re talking about. What else do we do with sin - sin is punished. If someone commits a crime, he is punished for that crime.

He did not voluntarily take upon himself our sins and then write the perfect haiku. Or cut the perfect haircut. Or knit the perfect sweater.

He suffered the perfect suffering. That is, the most ruthless, terrible suffering ever devised. Why else did he do that if he was not enduring a punishment meant for me?
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
No, he expiated those sins through extreme physical torture. If he is perfectly obedient, and thereby “becomes sin”, why can he not be “lifted up” as a brazen serpent who is not suffering unbearable physical torture? Why is the immense suffering of the brazen serpent the most fitting expiation? Unless he **is **in fact being punished. If he “becomes sin” what other reason for his suffering is there? It’s **sin **we’re talking about. What else do we do with sin - sin is punished. If someone commits a crime, he is punished for that crime.

He did not voluntarily take upon himself our sins and then write the perfect haiku. Or cut the perfect haircut. Or knit the perfect sweater.

He suffered the perfect suffering. That is, the most ruthless, terrible suffering ever devised. Why else did he do that if he was not enduring a punishment meant for me?
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But none of that means God had to punish God in order to let us off the hook. How does that make any sense? The law of God is not forensic it’s ontological. In fact if we look at God’s law as forensic then God is not just at all. Here is St Issac dispelling that concept of God’s law.
How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? “Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?” How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice?—for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.- St Issac the Syrian
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If we are guilty in the way you suggest then the only just thing for God to do would be to punish us. There is nothing just about punishing one for the crimes of another. In fact that is the very definition of injustice.
 
Sorry peeps there is just no getting around it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (He 9:22). The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). Death is the penalty for sin (Ge 2:17). Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin; otherwise his death was unnecessary.
 
Seraphim73 said:
But none of that means God had to punish God in order to let us off the hook.
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  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
Sorry peeps there is just no getting around it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (He 9:22). The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). Death is the penalty for sin (Ge 2:17). Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin; otherwise his death was unnecessary.
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This is the great horror of some erroneous theology. You make God the author of death and make the devil the minister of God’s justice. How can the God who is love be the author of death? The wages of sin is death because when we sin we cut ourselves off from the only source of life. Remember God said to Adam “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.”, not if you eat of this tree I will kill you. There is all the difference in the world.
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
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You’ve read what I have to say. You’ve seen the testimony from Scripture and the fathers. If you are not persuaded then I’m sorry. Either way I’ve got nothing else to add. Good luck to you.
 
Seraphim73 said:
You’ve read what I have to say. You’ve seen the testimony from Scripture and the fathers. If you are not persuaded then I’m sorry. Either way I’ve got nothing else to add. Good luck to you.
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Persuaded by what?
  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
 
Seraphim73 said:
when we sin we cut ourselves off from the only source of life
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And?
  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
 
Seraphim73 said:
Religious schmaltz, etc, etc … but none of that means God had to punish …
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  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
Sorry peeps there is just no getting around it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (He 9:22). The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). Death is the penalty for sin (Ge 2:17). Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin; otherwise his death was unnecessary.
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If you knew this already, why did you ask?

That’s exactly what we all told you and yet you asserted our answers deficient. If you want to play Bible quiz then I have to wonder what your purpose is here, especially since you have not seen fit to specify whatever faith community you are part of. We don’t generally play the Sola Scriptura game though I’d be willing to bet that many, if not most of us know the Word of God as well or better than you do.🤷
 
The love Jesus as human poured out won the Father’s Heart in our favor.
 
The very fact that Jesus suffered means it was punishment; its synonymous. The sacrificing of animals was symbolic. There was no real punishment involved, accept perhaps to the psychy of the ancient Jew
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
  1. Did Jesus “become sin”
  2. Did he suffer immense physical torture?
  3. Is 1) connected with 2)?
  4. If yes, how is it remotely rational to say that punishment has nothing to do with it?
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  1. He became a sin offering. Sin only as a symbol of our sin, the wages of which is death.
  2. Yes
  3. Yes He died a death we should have.
  4. It is rational because death is a natural consequence of sin. Jesus experienced a death in our stead. His death was equivalent in seriousness to the spiritual death we would experience.
Thus the Father would accept us with our sins, as long as are baptized into Christ’s death and life. He accepts our wilingness to die to self and live in Christ.

And then we can live the life the Father wants us to, the life of good works in which we should walk. By walking in these works and abiding in Christ, with repentance of sin, we develop an actual righteousness, given to us by the Grace of the Father, in the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

We become really meriting of Heaven.

peace
steve
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
Apologies I thought this was Apologetics.
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It is…and we explained it, however, you seem to want to try to be triumphant about your remarks in this the following post.
Sorry peeps there is just no getting around it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (He 9:22). The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). Death is the penalty for sin (Ge 2:17). Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin; otherwise his death was unnecessary.
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What is your religious affiliation?

No one here sought to “get around” anything. So what’s the point of this little exercise?
 
Hieros_Gamos said:
Sorry peeps there is just no getting around it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (He 9:22). The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). Death is the penalty for sin (Ge 2:17). Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin; otherwise his death was unnecessary.
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This is all true. This is justice. But mercy allows one person to pay the debt of another.

You understand God’s justice. You don’t seem to understand God’s mercy.

It would be a grave injustice for God to snatch some innocent guy off the street to pay the deby. But that’s not what happened. God offered himself to pay the debt. Jesus was not some innocent guy - he is God, and it was HIS plan in the first place.

That is mercy, in its most perfect form.
 
Church_Militant said:
It is…and we explained it, however, you seem to want to try to be triumphant about your remarks in this the following post. What is your religious affiliation?

No one here sought to “get around” anything. So what’s the point of this little exercise?
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I have no religious affiliation. My questions are genuine.
 
thenobes said:
Sin only as a symbol of our sin, the wages of which is death … Jesus experienced a death in our stead.
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If his sin was symbolic how can his death be anything but symbolic too? But his death was real. Therefore the penalty is likewise a real penalty.

If he experiences death instead of us, he is experiencing the penalty of sin for us. I’m not sure what the difference is between “penalty” and “punishment” here.

Whether we call death the “consequence” or “result” or “verdict” or “penalty” or “punishment”, it seems to me that as long as that death is real, and accompanied by immense suffering, we are just splitting hairs.
 
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