Attending an Anglican bible study

[catharina]

I am attending an Anglican bible study on Romans. The curch is definitely not Anglo-Catholic but I don’t think its at the other extreme either. The pastor told me they are “middle of the road” which is a team that has always confounded me. Anyway, the study is being lead by a member that was a former Presbyterian, but he converted to Anglican and is a big proponent of NT Wright.

It is apparent to me that there is some underlying bias towards Catholics - not strong, but I sense it. There are about 10 people in this thing and the pastor did mention that I was a Catholic. The group leader makes comments like “When Paul is addressing the Church of Rome, he does not mean Roman Catholics, Paul would not know what a Roman Catholic was” (snicker, snicker from the back).
To be fair, he has also made statements like Catholics believe the same basic gospel as the Anglicans so we are in communion with them. And he pointed out thet I would be welcome to receive the Eucharist there but he is not welcome to receive at my church.

I asked him if when Paul talks about justification, are we “declared” justified or are we “made” justified, and he went off on how he is not talking about a Catholic perspective and how we put too much emphasis on Mary. Mary! I asked a question about justification.

Now, I am enjoying the study very much, we are moving at about the pace of one chapter a night but I need some help. In light of the way my last question was received, I want to through this question out here first. He keeps saying that based on what he has read of NT Wright, He has come to the conclusion that Luther and the Reformers “got it wrong” with respect to “justification by faith”. He sited James and and other points where works come into play also. But he also says Roman Catholics got it wrong - I am going to have to ask about this.

But first to the forum - First, do you think he is regarding Roman Catholic theology as a “gospel of works” when he says this (before I tick him off by asking that), and second, is there a “Catholic perspective” on the “New perspective on Paul”? How is what Wright describes as justification similar/different to the Catholic position? We are only on Romans 4, but it sounds pretty similar so far.

I think that your “membership” in an Anglican Bible Study group is horribly ill-advised.
I can’t imagine why ANY Catholic would choose to do what you’re doing.

It should be clear to you that the “Anglicans” departed from the Faith.
Why would you subject yourslef to their confusion and misunderstandings?
We are to cherish our Faith as a treasure, as a pearl of great price.

 

[catharina]

Why would you study the bible with Protestants? Every little comment could be a misinterpretation that could be spiritually detrimental to you in the future.

There’s so many amazing Catholic bible studies out there… if there’s none nearby, start your own, there’s resources all over the internet. My mother just finished “the Great Adventure” and loved it, now she’s an OT officionado

This might even be something to bring up in confession…

I agree with your post 100%.

 

[doughnut]

i think it would be ‘dangerous’ ~ although personally i do love to dig out what other sects thought of certain issues but i think attending a non-catholic bible studies can be very risky. it will come a time where we find their arguments more and more convincing, and suddenly we began to suspect if the catholic church was wrong after all…there has been cases of many priests and religious that has dabbled with other faiths and ended up leaving the catholic church even.

although i cannot say this is wrong but it is not very advisable as you are deliberately putting ‘temptation’ before your nose.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I think that your “membership” in an Anglican Bible Study group is horribly ill-advised.
I can’t imagine why ANY Catholic would choose to do what you’re doing.

Oh, I don’t know, something dreadfully silly like hanging out with other Christians and having a pleasant time discussing God’s Word?

It should be clear to you that the “Anglicans” departed from the Faith.
Why would you subject yourslef to their confusion and misunderstandings?
We are to cherish our Faith as a treasure, as a pearl of great price.

Please explain how Anglicans have departed from the faith.

 

[Elizium23]

To be fair, he has also made statements like Catholics believe the same basic gospel as the Anglicans so we are in communion with them. And he pointed out thet I would be welcome to receive the Eucharist there but he is not welcome to receive at my church.

The Catholic Church is not in communion with the Anglicans. That is why he is not welcome to receive communion, and why your reception of communion at an Anglican service would be a schismatic act and a mortal sin.

The fact that you are repeating such bogus statements is proof that this Bible study has already damaged your faith. I urge you to make a little more effort and seek out a Catholic parish that offers an accessible study that will strengthen your faith.

 

[catharina]

Oh, I don’t know, something dreadfully silly like hanging out with other Christians and having a pleasant time discussing God’s Word?

Please explain how Anglicans have departed from the faith.

Certainly as a follower of M. Luther, you are also familiar with Henry VIII of England?
When Henry broke with the Bishop of Rome, those who followed him did so as well.
These folks broke union with the Vatican - (similarly to M. Luther).

Variously we know such as Episcopalians, Church of England, Anglicans, etc…
Yet I’m rather certain you must know that … so why ask me?

 

[catharina]

The Catholic Church is not in communion with the Anglicans. That is why he is not welcome to receive communion, and why your reception of communion at an Anglican service would be a schismatic act and a mortal sin.

The fact that you are repeating such bogus statements is proof that this Bible study has already damaged your faith. I urge you to make a little more effort and seek out a Catholic parish that offers an accessible study that will strengthen your faith.

Precisely.
Thank you.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Certainly as a follower of M. Luther, you are also familiar with Henry VIII of England?
When Henry broke with the Bishop of Rome, those who followed him did so as well.
These folks broke union with the Vatican - (similarly to M. Luther).

So, you mean then that they broke away from the Roman Catholic Church. That is quite different than saying “the faith,” as that implies Christianity.

 

[catharina]

Oh, I don’t know, something dreadfully silly like hanging out with other Christians and having a pleasant time discussing God’s Word?

Please explain how Anglicans have departed from the faith.

Hanging out with ‘other Christians’ to discuss God’s Word
does NOT include allowing their churches to teach one Scripture.
The contradiction would speak for itself.

Of course, if Lutherans do that, then you would know.

Catholics do not “learn” from teachers who have abandoned the Catholic Faith,
even when the abandonment is one of historical tradition.

 

[catharina]

So, you mean then that they broke away from the Roman Catholic Church. That is quite different than saying “the faith,” as that implies Christianity.

The Catholic Church is the depository of the Faith for all Christians.
It protects the Faith and teaches the Faith through both Scripture and Tradition.

Christian denominations cannot say the same.

 

[GKC]

Sorry, GKC, rib against TEC

Ah. To be sure. Those folks.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hanging out with ‘other Christians’ to discuss God’s Word
does NOT include allowing their churches to teach one Scripture.
The contradiction would speak for itself.

Of course, if Lutherans do that, then you would know.

Catholics do not “learn” from teachers who have abandoned the Catholic Faith,
even when the abandonment is one of historical tradition.

I see. So, then, you would scold Pope Benedict for his insights regarding the genius of the Lutheran understanding of Scripture? Would you scold him for attending an ecumenical service at Westminster Abbey when he visits England later this year? It seems he doesn’t have the same view of ‘other Christians’ that you, who claim him to be the successor of Peter, seem to share in your triumphalistic attitude. For that, Christendom, I am sure, is much better off.

 

[catharina]

I see. So, then, you would scold Pope Benedict for his insights regarding the genius of the Lutheran understanding of Scripture? Would you scold him for attending an ecumenical service at Westminster Abbey when he visits England later this year? It seems he doesn’t have the same view of ‘other Christians’ that you, who claim him to be the successor of Peter, seem to share in your triumphalistic attitude. For that, Christendom, I am sure, is much better off.

I scold no one, not even you.

So skipping past your sarcasm, I recognize the goal of ecumenism.
It is enacted to fulfill “that all be one.”
Those within the Catholic Church are indeed one.
Our teaching is one, our Tradition is one.

Can we rocgnize outpourings of Truth, thanks to the holy Spirit, among other Christians?
Yes. We can recognize it, praise it and give thanks for it.
Yet we can NOT pretend that Christian denominations hold the fullness of Truth.
They do not and can not hold the fullness of Truth.
We can praise the fact that, on occasion, their teachers might be on target.
However we can not, will not, and do not depend on them to teach us.

They exist as Christian denominations. They do not exist as teachers of Catholicism.

You are clearly lacking in understanding as to the fact that
Pope Benedict XVI and I hold identical beliefs about the fullness of Truth in Catholicism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Orthodoxy, the Copts, Old Catholics would probably all take issue with that statement. And many non-Catholic groups that hold ot the creeds like the Anglicans and Lutherans would claim that the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages after the split with the East lost their way innovating with purgatory, indulgences, extravagant papal power assertions, penances, and other ideas that had never existed in the Church before. From their point of view, the Church lost its way and they are trying to put it back on track.

The Catholic Church is the depository of the Faith for all Christians.
It protects the Faith and teaches the Faith through both Scripture and Tradition.

Christian denominations cannot say the same.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There are Catholics who believe in women’s ordination and gay rights, abortion, euthanasia, pre marital sex, and many who reject the papacy. The majority practice birth control and tons practice out of wedlock sex. Cohabitation is plenty rampant and many disagree with the pope’s handling of the sex scandals. The unity you claim exists isn’t much better from my experience and analysis than the Protestants you point out to be so fragmented.

You are one with Benedict by design. You are a 100% hardcore Catholic who believes that the pope is infallible and Peter’s descendent. You totally have bought into that belief so of course you are in line with him lock, stock, and barrell? It wouldn’t make sense if you weren’t after what you’ve said?

Just because some orthodox catholics are one doesn’t mean all of Christendom is one. That is the goal of ecumenism—that ALL may be one, not just some pro-papal orthodox Catholics?

I scold no one, not even you.

So skipping past your sarcasm, I recognize the goal of ecumenism.
It is enacted to fulfill “that all be one.”
Those within the Catholic Church are indeed one.
Our teaching is one, our Tradition is one.

Can we rocgnize outpourings of Truth, thanks to the holy Spirit, among other Christians?
Yes. We can recognize it, praise it and give thanks for it.
Yet we can NOT pretend that Christian denominations hold the fullness of Truth.
They do not and can not hold the fullness of Truth.
We can praise the fact that, on occasion, their teachers might be on target.
However we can not, will not, and do not depend on them to teach us.

They exist as Christian denominations. They do not exist as teachers of Catholicism.

You are clearly lacking in understanding as to the fact that
Pope Benedict XVI and I hold identical beliefs about the fullness of Truth in Catholicism.

 

[catharina]

… And many non-Catholic groups that hold ot the creeds like the Anglicans and Lutherans would claim that the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages after the split with the East lost their way innovating with purgatory, indulgences, extravagant papal power assertions, penances, and other ideas that had never existed in the Church before. From their point of view, the Church lost its way and they are trying to put it back on track.

… and they would be wrong.

It is JESUS Who said:

“Upon this rock I shall build My Church and the forces of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Those who thought “to save” the Church by deserting the Church were dead wrong.
They became a contradiction to the promise of Christ our Lord.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Can we rocgnize outpourings of Truth, thanks to the holy Spirit, among other Christians?
Yes. We can recognize it, praise it and give thanks for it.
Yet we can NOT pretend that Christian denominations hold the fullness of Truth.

So you compare a Catholic going to a simple Bible study at a non-Catholic Church to be the same as believing that they hold the “fullness of the truth (which is Christ, by the way)?”

You are clearly lacking in understanding as to the fact that
Pope Benedict XVI and I hold identical beliefs about the fullness of Truth in Catholicism.

I never said that you and the Pope hold contradictory teachings on Catholicism. What I stated was to refute your assertions that one cannot learn Scriptural insights from a non-Catholic. If the Pope can learn Scriptural insights from Martin Luther, then I would hope that it can also be done at an Anglican Bible study.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Just because some orthodox catholics are one doesn’t mean all of Christendom is one. That is the goal of ecumenism—that ALL may be one, not just some pro-papal orthodox Catholics?

You must cease and desist, gurney. Thou hath sufficiently been rebuked by the Matthew 16:18 reference.

 

[catharina]

There are Catholics who believe in women’s ordination and gay rights, abortion, euthanasia, pre marital sex, and many who reject the papacy. The majority practice birth control and tons practice out of wedlock sex. Cohabitation is plenty rampant and many disagree with the pope’s handling of the sex scandals. The unity you claim exists isn’t much better from my experience and analysis than the Protestants you point out to be so fragmented.

The unity exists and will exist based on the promise of Christ the Lord.
The “catholics” you describe are catholic-in-name-only.

You are one with Benedict by design. You are a 100% hardcore Catholic who believes that the pope is infallible and Peter’s descendent. You totally have bought into that belief so of course you are in line with him lock, stock, and barrell? It wouldn’t make sense if you weren’t after what you’ve said?

I am in unity with Rome through the grace of God Alone.
I stand with that grace, with the choice of my promises to God at Baptism.
The term “orthodox Catholic” as you are using it, is a recent invention
meaning absolutly nothing to faithful Catholics.

Just because some orthodox catholics are one doesn’t mean all of Christendom is one. That is the goal of ecumenism—that ALL may be one, not just some pro-papal orthodox Catholics?

**That all be one, that all be brought with the ONE TRUE FOLD.
That’s the relevant meaning.

We are together one as Christians.
When one as Catholics, we have access to the fullness of Truth.**

 

[catharina]

So you compare a Catholic going to a simple Bible study at a non-Catholic Church to be the same as believing that they hold the “fullness of the truth (which is Christ, by the way)?”

I never said that you and the Pope hold contradictory teachings on Catholicism. What I stated was to refute your assertions that one cannot learn Scriptural insights from a non-Catholic. If the Pope can learn Scriptural insights from Martin Luther, then I would hope that it can also be done at an Anglican Bible study.

**When the Pope so proclaims, then I accept.
He is the appointed leader, sitting in Peter’s chair.
I have no desire to appoint myself to the position of leader. **